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I suspect Ukraine was told quite clearly what they can expect, and as you say, it comes short of NATO boots on the ground, or wings in the sky. I'd say no one
by rich_sasha 5y ago
I suspect Ukraine was told quite clearly what they can expect, and as you say, it comes short of NATO boots on the ground, or wings in the sky.
I'd say no one ever really wants to defend an ally, it's more of a pros-and-cons balance. For smaller countries, solidarity within NATO is building goodwill capital for when they need help (e.g. with allies following US into Afghanistan). For large countries, this is part of their empire-building: showing allies you support them makes them more favourably disposed to you. All-around, even for the US, it raises the bar for anyone contemplating an attack on a NATO member.
Ukraine is a colleague but not an ally, so these don't really apply as much.
That said, the West wants an independent, pro-western Ukraine (just not enough to fight a direct war with Russia over), and seems unusually resolute, so I wouldn't be surprised if some truly punitive actions were to be taken. Exclusion from SWIFT was one proposal, interfering with Russian energy exports would be catastrophic for Russia. The latter is very difficult for Europe in winter, but who knows; the US could open the tap with their gas, also if the whole thing gets delayed by a few months, it could be a very different perspective.
- DoingIsLearning 5y ago> The latter is very difficult for Europe in winter The latter is very difficult for Germany in winter. Let's call a spade a spade and stop bundling the EU27 with Germany's energy policy and geo-political failures.
- rich_sasha 5y agoThere's plenty of countries heavily dependent on Russian gas, Germany being one. I get it, from Spain it looks very different, but this list: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia_in_the_European_energy_sector#Natural_gas_deliveries https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia_in_the_European_energy_... shows how many countries depend on Russian gas. This should have been scary to Europe for at least a decade now, but sadly wasn't.
- aa-jv 5y agoEuropeans don't hate Russians as much as Americans do - probably because they've actually got Russians visiting and know that Russia doesn't really represent the threat that the American military-industrial complex needs you to believe is real in order to justify their trillion dollar misadventures and further subjugation of NATO member states into puppetry. In fact, a lot of Europeans would like to see peace made with Russia. A Europe united with Russia would be the one superpower even China could do little to contain ..
- TheGigaChad 5y agoLol, idiot. The more you know Russians - the more you hate them.
- eptcyka 5y agoComing from a post-soviet country, Europeans certainly have a diverse opinion of Russia, but most of it is negative. I don't see how peace could be made given their aggressive foreign policy and continued advances on all fronts that are acceptable. They're pushing their propaganda very hard across the border, and are leaning in hard on the russian speaking populations left in post-soviet countries to screw around.
- aa-jv 5y ago> I don't see how peace could be made Its certainly not going to be possible for as long as member citizens of Western nations think they have the moral authority to tell Russia what to do .. they really, really don't have that moral authority, especially given the last twenty years of massacring of innocent people that the West continues to sweep under the rug and justify with bleats .. The Russian people know how many innocent human beings are massacred by American war machines every day, even if Americans don't.
- ogogmad 5y agoLook up whataboutism, the "tu quoque" fallacy, and the fallacy of moral equivalence.
- MagnumOpus 5y ago> Let's call a spade a spade and stop bundling the EU27 with Germany's energy policy and geo-political failures German gas consumption per capita is not much different than most of the EU27 except France (nuclear) and Spain/southern Italy (it doesn't get cold enough to need much heating). All the EU east of Germany imports more of their gas from Russia as a percentage; and the ones to the west of it only don't because the pipes from Norway or Morocco are shorter. So no, not just a German problem, your electricity cost have gone up too I bet.