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Unvaccinated people under the age of 60 certainly do not put any significant pressure on ICUs. Saying otherwise is a blatant lie and demonizes people. Doing so

Unvaccinated people under the age of 60 certainly do not put any significant pressure on ICUs. Saying otherwise is a blatant lie and demonizes people. Doing so and searching blame in others is a symptom of severe inferiority complex which is dangerous to other people, so take care what you say.

n8henrie 5y ago
Where are you getting this from? I bet they have taken at least 50% capacity on average of our 4 bed ICU over the last few months.
- raxxorrax 5y ago
  That would make sense then. In that case I am firmly for throwing these two rascals in prison.
  - SideburnsOfDoom 5y ago
    Please don't demonise them.
  - n8henrie 5y ago
    Not sure I understand this comment. Unfortunately each of these cases often occupies an ICU bed for weeks. As a result we transfer dozens of other patients hundreds of miles away, and often after >24 hours boarding in the emergency department, because every other ICU bed is full as well (in addition to mandatory down time for the flight crews, which are also working overtime). With help from my ~5 person ED staff, I've called as many as 50 hospitals in a night (spanning 6 of the largest states) trying to find an open ICU bed. Some relevant conversation on a thread I started in r/medicine: <https://www.reddit.com/r/medicine/comments/r6bl1u/not_accepting_transfers_from_out_of_state/ https://www.reddit.com/r/medicine/comments/r6bl1u/not_accept...>
SideburnsOfDoom 5y ago
> Unvaccinated people under the age of 60 certainly do not put any significant pressure on ICUs However: "Ohio Gov. Mike DeWine a day earlier warned of a “startling” rise in Covid hospitalizations among young people." https://www.cnbc.com/2021/09/22/unvaccinated-covid-patients-overwhelm-ohio-hospitals-as-delta-surges-across-state.html https://www.cnbc.com/2021/09/22/unvaccinated-covid-patients-... "I’m treating more and more young, unvaccinated people in ICU" https://metro.co.uk/2021/11/10/most-covid-patients-i-treat-in-the-icu-are-unvaccinated-get-your-jab-15555930/ https://metro.co.uk/2021/11/10/most-covid-patients-i-treat-i... "We're seeing younger people, unvaccinated, who take up around 75 percent of the intensive care beds and that's not just here, that's nationally." https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-gloucestershire-59405471 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-gloucestershire-594054... "90% were not fully vaccinated, with most tending to be on average six years younger than patients admitted to ICU who are fully vaccinated" https://www.bartshealth.nhs.uk/news/almost-90-of-patients-admitted-to-intensive-care-units-in-north-east-london-are-not-fully-vaccinated-11544 https://www.bartshealth.nhs.uk/news/almost-90-of-patients-ad... "Young people in ICU with Covid almost exclusively unvaccinated and some are dying" https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/young-people-in-icu-with-covid-almost-exclusively-unvaccinated-and-some-are-dying-medics-on-the-reality-of-crisis-41095967.html https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/young-people-in-i... Why do you call this "a blatant lie and demonizes people" ? - that's strong language, and would need some justification. "blatant" means "very obvious", so what is very obvious about it? What I'm very obviously seeing, is not what you claim to be very obviously seeing.
- peteradio 5y ago
  Those are not statistics related to ICU occupancy, except for this line: "We're seeing younger people, unvaccinated, who take up around 75 percent of the intensive care beds and that's not just here, that's nationally." How do you read that? 75% of ICU bed are being taken up by young unvaccinated covid patients? I'd bet all my money that is not true. These sentences are being put together to drive the cattle not inform.
  - n8henrie 5y ago
    > 75% of ICU bed are being taken up by young unvaccinated covid patients? FWIW, I think this roughly represents my experience WRT our 4-bed ICU on the Navajo Nation. Extremely high vaccination rate, with the exception of young people who didn't think they would get very sick, and they've ended up representing most of our ICU players.
rsynnott 5y ago
> Unvaccinated people under the age of 60 certainly do not put any significant pressure on ICUs. In countries with near-universal vaccination of over-60s, they actually do. In Ireland, over the past 5 months, 60% of ICU admissions have been under 65. Only 10% have been over 75 (in Ireland, vaccination rates for over 75s are virtually 100%). 10% are aged 25-35: https://www.hpsc.ie/a-z/respiratory/coronavirus/novelcoronavirus/surveillance/covid-19intensivecareadmissions/COVID-19_ICU_Weekly_Report_30.11.2021_website.pdf https://www.hpsc.ie/a-z/respiratory/coronavirus/novelcoronav... The younger people do have a much better survival rate (94% of 15-44s survive, and 73% of 45-54s), but they are taking up space and causing delays of routine hospital work. And Ireland has a relatively high rate of vaccination of young people; it's just that we have virtually universal vaccination of over 75s (and did by June when this data starts). Incidentally, this report encompasses a lot of data from a period when many 60-75s wouldn't have had their second dose (for various reasons, they were the only age group in Ireland allowed to be given AZ for most of the period, which has a delayed second dose). A similar report for the last three months would likely show an even starker age distribution. Beyond that, unvaccinated people act as more of a transmission vector than vaccinated people (while at peak there's not much evidence that vaccinated people who have covid are less infectious than unvaccinated people, vaccinated people are less likely to get it in the first place and don't stay infectious for as long). > Doing so and searching blame in others is a symptom of severe inferiority complex which is dangerous to other people, so take care what you say. Eh?
- JPKab 5y ago
  You stated the percentage of COVID patients in the ICU who are under 65. What you didn't state is: 1) Are ICUs in Ireland being pushed to capacity or not? 2) What percentage of ICU beds are occupied by the totality of covid patients? These two details are crucial to understanding whether the small percentage of covid CASES that become HOSPITALIZATIONS is significant enough in number to impact the ICUs. Based on every piece of data I've seen regarding the percentage of young people without comorbidities who get hospitalized after infection, it's probably overblown. Based on this dashboard, there are a TOTAL of 108 people currently in Irish ICUs for covid. This is out of a total population of just over 5 million people. https://covid19ireland-geohive.hub.arcgis.com/pages/hospitals-icu--testing https://covid19ireland-geohive.hub.arcgis.com/pages/hospital... At the peak of delta, there were 218 people in the ICUs in Ireland for COViD. Ireland doesn't have enough ICU beds is what I would infer if this is "overwhelming the hospital system" there. I live in Colorado, and these numbers are nothing compared to the hospitalizations we had, and we have a similar population.
n8henrie 5y ago
AZ has some reasonably accessible data: <https://azdhs.gov/covid19/data/index.php#hospital-bed-usage https://azdhs.gov/covid19/data/index.php#hospital-bed-usage> It looks like ~40% of all ICU beds taken by COVID patients recently. Doesn't break down by age, so doesn't inform this question completely, but it can speak against the 75% number quoted elsewhere in this conversation (and my anecdotal experience as well). In AZ at least, certainly 75% of all ICU beds can't be taken by young unvaccinated COVID patients if only 40% of ICU beds were taken by COVID patients. EDIT: UT also around ~40% <https://coronavirus-dashboard.utah.gov/hosp.html https://coronavirus-dashboard.utah.gov/hosp.html> Duration of admission is something to consider as well though. Nobody likes to let young people die, and the odds of keeping someone with a very grim prognosis on the vent for weeks or months is higher if they are young and otherwise healthy as opposed to old or unhealthy; one young ventilated COVID patient could occupy an ICU bed for quite some time while the neighboring bed is turned over dozens of times and while dozens of other patients may expire or be flown hundreds of miles away (to the tune of tens of thousands of dollars for the flight alone) for lack of an ICU bed. Difficult to answer (for me at least) ethical considerations on all sides.

n8henrie 5y ago

Where are you getting this from? I bet they have taken at least 50% capacity on average of our 4 bed ICU over the last few months.

raxxorrax 5y ago
That would make sense then. In that case I am firmly for throwing these two rascals in prison.
- SideburnsOfDoom 5y ago
  Please don't demonise them.
- n8henrie 5y ago
  Not sure I understand this comment. Unfortunately each of these cases often occupies an ICU bed for weeks. As a result we transfer dozens of other patients hundreds of miles away, and often after >24 hours boarding in the emergency department, because every other ICU bed is full as well (in addition to mandatory down time for the flight crews, which are also working overtime). With help from my ~5 person ED staff, I've called as many as 50 hospitals in a night (spanning 6 of the largest states) trying to find an open ICU bed. Some relevant conversation on a thread I started in r/medicine: <https://www.reddit.com/r/medicine/comments/r6bl1u/not_accepting_transfers_from_out_of_state/ https://www.reddit.com/r/medicine/comments/r6bl1u/not_accept...>

SideburnsOfDoom 5y ago

> Unvaccinated people under the age of 60 certainly do not put any significant pressure on ICUs However: "Ohio Gov. Mike DeWine a day earlier warned of a “startling” rise in Covid hospitalizations among young people." https://www.cnbc.com/2021/09/22/unvaccinated-covid-patients-overwhelm-ohio-hospitals-as-delta-surges-across-state.html https://www.cnbc.com/2021/09/22/unvaccinated-covid-patients-... "I’m treating more and more young, unvaccinated people in ICU" https://metro.co.uk/2021/11/10/most-covid-patients-i-treat-in-the-icu-are-unvaccinated-get-your-jab-15555930/ https://metro.co.uk/2021/11/10/most-covid-patients-i-treat-i... "We're seeing younger people, unvaccinated, who take up around 75 percent of the intensive care beds and that's not just here, that's nationally." https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-gloucestershire-59405471 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-gloucestershire-594054... "90% were not fully vaccinated, with most tending to be on average six years younger than patients admitted to ICU who are fully vaccinated" https://www.bartshealth.nhs.uk/news/almost-90-of-patients-admitted-to-intensive-care-units-in-north-east-london-are-not-fully-vaccinated-11544 https://www.bartshealth.nhs.uk/news/almost-90-of-patients-ad... "Young people in ICU with Covid almost exclusively unvaccinated and some are dying" https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/young-people-in-icu-with-covid-almost-exclusively-unvaccinated-and-some-are-dying-medics-on-the-reality-of-crisis-41095967.html https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/young-people-in-i... Why do you call this "a blatant lie and demonizes people" ? - that's strong language, and would need some justification. "blatant" means "very obvious", so what is very obvious about it? What I'm very obviously seeing, is not what you claim to be very obviously seeing.

peteradio 5y ago
Those are not statistics related to ICU occupancy, except for this line: "We're seeing younger people, unvaccinated, who take up around 75 percent of the intensive care beds and that's not just here, that's nationally." How do you read that? 75% of ICU bed are being taken up by young unvaccinated covid patients? I'd bet all my money that is not true. These sentences are being put together to drive the cattle not inform.
- n8henrie 5y ago
  > 75% of ICU bed are being taken up by young unvaccinated covid patients? FWIW, I think this roughly represents my experience WRT our 4-bed ICU on the Navajo Nation. Extremely high vaccination rate, with the exception of young people who didn't think they would get very sick, and they've ended up representing most of our ICU players.

rsynnott 5y ago

> Unvaccinated people under the age of 60 certainly do not put any significant pressure on ICUs. In countries with near-universal vaccination of over-60s, they actually do. In Ireland, over the past 5 months, 60% of ICU admissions have been under 65. Only 10% have been over 75 (in Ireland, vaccination rates for over 75s are virtually 100%). 10% are aged 25-35: https://www.hpsc.ie/a-z/respiratory/coronavirus/novelcoronavirus/surveillance/covid-19intensivecareadmissions/COVID-19_ICU_Weekly_Report_30.11.2021_website.pdf https://www.hpsc.ie/a-z/respiratory/coronavirus/novelcoronav... The younger people do have a much better survival rate (94% of 15-44s survive, and 73% of 45-54s), but they are taking up space and causing delays of routine hospital work. And Ireland has a relatively high rate of vaccination of young people; it's just that we have virtually universal vaccination of over 75s (and did by June when this data starts). Incidentally, this report encompasses a lot of data from a period when many 60-75s wouldn't have had their second dose (for various reasons, they were the only age group in Ireland allowed to be given AZ for most of the period, which has a delayed second dose). A similar report for the last three months would likely show an even starker age distribution. Beyond that, unvaccinated people act as more of a transmission vector than vaccinated people (while at peak there's not much evidence that vaccinated people who have covid are less infectious than unvaccinated people, vaccinated people are less likely to get it in the first place and don't stay infectious for as long). > Doing so and searching blame in others is a symptom of severe inferiority complex which is dangerous to other people, so take care what you say. Eh?

JPKab 5y ago
You stated the percentage of COVID patients in the ICU who are under 65. What you didn't state is: 1) Are ICUs in Ireland being pushed to capacity or not? 2) What percentage of ICU beds are occupied by the totality of covid patients? These two details are crucial to understanding whether the small percentage of covid CASES that become HOSPITALIZATIONS is significant enough in number to impact the ICUs. Based on every piece of data I've seen regarding the percentage of young people without comorbidities who get hospitalized after infection, it's probably overblown. Based on this dashboard, there are a TOTAL of 108 people currently in Irish ICUs for covid. This is out of a total population of just over 5 million people. https://covid19ireland-geohive.hub.arcgis.com/pages/hospitals-icu--testing https://covid19ireland-geohive.hub.arcgis.com/pages/hospital... At the peak of delta, there were 218 people in the ICUs in Ireland for COViD. Ireland doesn't have enough ICU beds is what I would infer if this is "overwhelming the hospital system" there. I live in Colorado, and these numbers are nothing compared to the hospitalizations we had, and we have a similar population.

n8henrie 5y ago

AZ has some reasonably accessible data: <https://azdhs.gov/covid19/data/index.php#hospital-bed-usage https://azdhs.gov/covid19/data/index.php#hospital-bed-usage> It looks like ~40% of all ICU beds taken by COVID patients recently. Doesn't break down by age, so doesn't inform this question completely, but it can speak against the 75% number quoted elsewhere in this conversation (and my anecdotal experience as well). In AZ at least, certainly 75% of all ICU beds can't be taken by young unvaccinated COVID patients if only 40% of ICU beds were taken by COVID patients. EDIT: UT also around ~40% <https://coronavirus-dashboard.utah.gov/hosp.html https://coronavirus-dashboard.utah.gov/hosp.html> Duration of admission is something to consider as well though. Nobody likes to let young people die, and the odds of keeping someone with a very grim prognosis on the vent for weeks or months is higher if they are young and otherwise healthy as opposed to old or unhealthy; one young ventilated COVID patient could occupy an ICU bed for quite some time while the neighboring bed is turned over dozens of times and while dozens of other patients may expire or be flown hundreds of miles away (to the tune of tens of thousands of dollars for the flight alone) for lack of an ICU bed. Difficult to answer (for me at least) ethical considerations on all sides.