12 ms·

To reduce student suicides by hanging to fans, institute in India removes fans

159 points by tangoalpha 5y ago

daneel_w 5y ago
Fantastic solution. Another way would be to remove students' heads, which would be equally effective.
NiceWayToDoIT 5y ago
Blame the fans, so what is the next thing they will remove, floors above 2nd, sharp objects, electricity? Everything else but not the cause ...
- PostThisTooFast 5y ago
  Step 2: Remove the students
- Ygg2 5y ago
  However making suicide harder, does reduce the suicide rate. https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/means-matter/means-matter/saves-lives/ https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/means-matter/means-matter/saves...
  - stevefan1999 5y ago
    and people who wanted to kill himself will eventually do it regardlessly
    - wutbrodo 5y ago
      That's precisely the opposite of the point being made in the parent comment's link. Do you have any rebuttal to the evidence that source contains?
    - ashtonkem 5y ago
      That is a common meme, but it’s wrong. For every ten people who attempt suicide and fail, only one will eventually die by suicide[0]. 70% of survivors will never even reattempt suicide, and only 7% or so of suicide survivors will eventually successfully commit suicide. Furthermore, I’m disturbed by the cavalier attitude here. Suicide isn’t a predestined thing that we’re helpless to prevent as a society. There is real suffering and we can do something about it in aggregate. Framing it as something “they’ll do anyways” is both factually incorrect, and absolves society of any responsibility to help prevent suicide. 0 - https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/means-matter/means-matter/survival/ https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/means-matter/means-matter/survi...
      - laumars 5y ago
        > Furthermore, I’m disturbed by the cavalier attitude here. Suicide isn’t a predestined thing that we’re helpless to prevent as a society. That wasn’t the point that people were making. The point they were making is that removing fans doesn’t address the underlying mental health issues. If anything, arguing that everyone is ok now because fewer people are dying is the cavalier attitude because it overlooks the daily struggles that many will still be having. Thus regardless of the points you’ve put excellently in your first paragraph, the students mental health issues do also need to be addressed too. So I see your rebuttal as complimentary to the other points rather than fully dismissing them (ie it shouldn’t be “either/or” but rather “both things needs doing”).
        ashtonkem 5y ago
        > That wasn’t the point that people were making. The point they were making is that removing fans doesn’t address the underlying mental health issues. That is a fair argument, but not how I interpreted GP. In the context it seemed like they were arguing against any measure that removes means of suicide away from people because “they’ll just do it regardless”. > If anything, arguing that everyone is ok now because fewer people are dying Literally nobody here is saying this. Everyone here has acknowledged that this doesn’t solve the underlying mental health issues (or material issues, per a now dead comment), but might be a good band aid (over a “bullet wound” per another commenter). What’s more common here is the acknowledgment that this doesn’t solve the mental health issue, and the grim realization that the university won’t do anything about it either way.
  - kfarr 5y ago
    However removing the fan ostensibly makes the room warmer, which increases the suicide rate. https://news.stanford.edu/2018/07/23/warming-temperatures-linked-increased-suicide-rates/ https://news.stanford.edu/2018/07/23/warming-temperatures-li...
    - irjustin 5y ago
      From the article, the data is muddy and cause-effect is not claimable: > For example, the effects in Texas are some of the highest in the country. Suicide rates have not declined over recent decades, even with the introduction and wide adaptation of air conditioning. If anything, the researchers say, the effect has grown stronger over time.
    - seanmcdirmid 5y ago
      They are replacing ceiling fans with wall mounted fans, otherwise non suicide death by heat exhaustion would increase. India is a poorer developing country, so actual AC in the dorms is still out of the question.
      - rg111 5y ago
        This is literally the #1 institute in India. If they want, they can get ACs.
        seanmcdirmid 5y ago
        Why would you think that? The top universities in places like India and China get their positions mainly by selecting the brightest students, they don’t actually throw a lot resources their way, and these students are often paying their living expenses themselves or with a small stipend or subsidy.
        rg111 5y ago
        No, I know multiple people who presently live there and have lived there in the past. This is also one of the richest universities of India- not merely one of the best. I also heard of someone who studied medicine at AIIMS Delhi. It is another of rich institutions of India. The rooms, although small, will match a 3 star hotel in terms of amenities. The same is simply not true for IISc. Despite being one of the richest unis of India, their amenities do not match that of AIIMS Delhi. But that institute is not cash-sterved as Indian institutes go. The labs are great, the faculties are the same. Many of them can easily teach at any US uni. What I think is the reason of absence of ACs in rooms is the Bangalore weather. During most of the year, you really don't need an AC or even a ceiling fan.
  - NiceWayToDoIT 5y ago
    As there are many ways to commit suicide, school could equally tie everyone in padded cells, and tube feed students in order to avoid any suicide. Be careful when using such studies, as future AI may use those and similar - to remove all freedoms from humans, arguing that humans are dangerous for themselves, thus creating new Matrix?! Root cause can be maybe a terrible education system and society that is fit more for robots then humans. It just feels wrong blaming individuals for not wanting to participate in it.
    - taneq 5y ago
      Thus creating a NEW Matrix? You've said too much!
      - weregiraffe 5y ago
        This will be the sixth time we have destroyed it, and we have become exceedingly efficient at it.
      - NiceWayToDoIT 5y ago
        Imaginative scenario so to politely avoid pointing finger to overly corrupt governments and individuals that could use similar excuse to limit your freedom, in one way or another.
  - SapporoChris 5y ago
    It's a boondoggle. With a bonus effect of increasing deaths from extreme heat. Now, it might seem rude of me, but I am against killing people that want to live in order to maybe save people that want to die. edit In addition, 88 per cent of students said they did not think that “replacing ceiling fans with wall-mounted fans in all IISc hostels (would) help curb student suicide”. Read more at: https://www.deccanherald.com/city/students-say-iisc-removing-fans-to-prevent-suicides-1061221.html https://www.deccanherald.com/city/students-say-iisc-removing... I still say it's a boondoggle, the resources could be better spent elsewhere. However, this looks like a really small matter, one institute of learning a relatively small number of suicides. I'm going to relax and not worry about it. end edit
    - bongoman37 5y ago
      Bangalore has fairly moderate climate, and also, they are providing wall mounted fans instead of ceiling fans.
    - neuroma 5y ago
      > Now, it might seem rude of me, but I am against killing people that want to live in order to maybe save people that want to die. The point is that most times people who commit suicide don't want to die, they simply feel life is currently so awful, and they is so little hope of change, that there is no alternative. Those thoughts are usually transitory and people on the other side express relief that steps were taken to stop them, buying time in which to heal.
    - spoonjim 5y ago
      * Bangalore has negligible deaths from extreme heat. It does not get very hot there. * Student polling is not a good way of assessing the likely impact on suicides.
  - AnIdiotOnTheNet 5y ago
    And making food harder to get reduces obesity.
- Borrible 5y ago
  > The institute is also said to have started to restrict student access to terraces and rooftops Apparently, they already thought about that.
  - ashtonkem 5y ago
    Assuming teenagers and low 20 something’s are the similar the world over, they should have restricted access to terraces and rooftops for a variety of reasons unrelated to suicide. Alcohol and heights tend not to be very close friends, and my college restricted access to the latter as much as they could (the former was a lost cause).
    - Borrible 5y ago
      As a father of two in that age group, I would prefer to restrict their access especially to my precious world of perfect tranquility. Assuming teenagers and low 20 something's are the similar the world over, which I find a bit debatable, there still is the question whether there were or are better models to cope with puberty and coming of age for the individual and society.
    - perth 5y ago
      Honestly my university giving us rooftop access for working on and setting up radio equipment was one of the most educational and enriching things I did there. Restricting access to rooftops for students seems like a terrible idea for education, where a lot of science literally happens on rooftops, whether with antennas or telescopes. (some students used the rooftop access to monitor fukushima reactor radiation in the atmosphere as well!) Also: Never had a single accident or suicide for over 2 decades
      - medstrom 5y ago
        You could get a ladder if you need a rooftop for a science project, right?
        deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
- ricardobeat 5y ago
  Next step is to remove the students. Problem solved!
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
jeroenhd 5y ago
Thi will never cure the underlying cause of suicides, of course, but adding even slight obstacles has proven to have an effect on suicide rates. Many suicides aren't thoughtfully planned out, but are just a combination of motive and easy opportunity. Even adding something as seemingly silly as a moderately difficult to climb fence to a bridge can reduce suicide rates. This is a fine measure, assuming that it's followed by investment into mental health. I do believe it'll save lives, even if it's just a few, but the necessity proves that there's still a lot that needs to be done.
- AdrianB1 5y ago
  This looks as bikeshedding. If you want to eliminate suicides, finding and fixing the motivation to commit the act is the way to go. Having a fan on a ceiling is not an opportunity, just one of the many available means to an end and not a compelling one, so it is really a way to pretending to care while not doing the right thing.
  - GavinMcG 5y ago
    Well, it turns out your intuitions on this one are wrong. Means restriction is one of the most empirically supported suicide-prevention strategies. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6191653/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6191653/
    - AdrianB1 5y ago
      I am not convinced it is as effective as pretended, otherwise the Mapo Bridge in Seoul would be razed and the Aokigahara Forest in Japan would be fenced with barbed wire.
    - derbOac 5y ago
      I think the point is, does removing fans make someone less depressed in the long run, or increase their quality of life? If someone still wants to kill themselves, but cannot because all means have been eliminated, have you solved any problems? I'm honestly not sure that I'd argue it doesn't increase quality of life, but using suicide prevention as an outcome seems superficial to me.
kkcorps 5y ago
Lol, who comes up with this stuff.
- nnain 5y ago
  Seriously! Indian govt institutes are so blasé about modernizing their ways that it's embarrassing.
nnain 5y ago
So the Indian Institute of Sciences hasn't got the memorandum on psychological counselling yet?
- TedDoesntTalk 5y ago
  I’ve been told by several Indian colleagues that mental health services in India are taboo, and generally reserved for the high dysfunctional who cannot be an active part in society (think very schizophrenic, for example). Is that accurate or old information?
  - kylehotchkiss 5y ago
    (Former expat who spent a few years living near Delhi) you’d never see a person going crazy on the streets in India like they do in California. Their government provides some services to help people in those situations. Many families provide support to members with a mental illness. However there’s little safety nets if you lose your job and your family relies on you, there aren’t as many chances to “catch up” or “get back on your feet” like you could in developed countries which does lead to suicide when people struggle with school or jobs. This unfortunately impacted many in the early Covid days. That looming fear of “one mistake and this all is over” is just a lot of weight to hold on your shoulders. Indian readers, this is just my interpretation of things from spending several years living there. Please point out any inaccuracies in my thoughts as I’m still interested in understanding these issues better.
    - seanmcdirmid 5y ago
      > you’d never see a person going crazy on the streets in India like they do in California. I’ve visited Delhi before, and at the time was accosted by a seemingly insane beggar. I have yet to visit a developing country that didn’t have a few crazy people on the streets.
  - nnain 5y ago
    The awareness is growing now, especially in the internet generation. A lot of people in rural areas are quite out of touch with basic healthcare, let alone mental healthcare. India is too big to generalise: from Instagram influencers to beggars (watching whom will break your heart), there's a whole everything.
robbedpeter 5y ago
The beatings will continue until morale improves.
- moffkalast 5y ago
  India's fanbase instantly reduced to zero.
dt3ft 5y ago
Great. That should do it. /s
jazzabeanie 5y ago
The real tragedy here is the people who continue to live in horrible suffering, wanting to die but not being able to.
jaimex2 5y ago
Melbourne, Victoria had a similar thing with its bridge. $20 million solution: https://www.theage.com.au/national/victoria/government-to-be-sued-over-west-gate-suicide-barriers-20141220-12bbb2.html https://www.theage.com.au/national/victoria/government-to-be... Views crossing the bridge are a nice touch now as you enter the worlds most locked down city.
bayesian_horse 5y ago
Even if poor access to mental health resources is the root course, it is the right choice to make sure students survive longer to have a chance to get help. Not enough, not even a start, but the right choice.
viach 5y ago
They missed the obvious option, to firbid high schools (this will remove students)
99_00 5y ago
I think making suicide less accessible will result in fewer suicides on campus. And I think making it more accessible will increase its rate. Seems obvious. But the headline isn't about that. It's about tut-tutting this backward institution. Because we, and the students union knows everything the school is doing to curb suicides beyond removing fans. Can they do more? Maybe. How would I know. I've never heard of this school before.
neuroma 5y ago
Obviously an emotive topic and I hope to tread lightly. Overwhelmingly people who have bear miss suicide attempts later are glad they did not do it. Suicide is rarely a release from trouble, causing massive problems for those who are left, often burdening them with a lifetime of struggle. Naturally we ache at the thought of removing useful ceilung fans rather than addressing the root cause. Yet who would criticise a seat belt, saying we just need to drive safely? Suicide is hard to reliably predict despite substantial efforts to do so. One if the models I've found useful is that of thwarted belongingness and perceived burdensomeness. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3377972/#!po=40.0794 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3377972/#!po=40...
screye 5y ago
I think this is a genuinely good idea. (which should obviously be accompanied by actual rehabilitative options and de-stigmatization of mental health) I went to similar institute in India (NIT, the proverbial first losers), and 3 students hung themselves over the span on 2 years. (1 acquaintance, 1 friend) From what was made public, their decision to commit suicide was a rash one, tied to the fear of failure. (one was a break up) I have been depressed before, and I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy. But, the decision to go from crushing depression to suicide is often fast (span on a few days) and genuinely reversible, as long as the person lives. We know that far more men die due to suicide, due to their choice of a more fatal weapon (gun to the dead > slashing veins). Making it harder to commit suicide gives institutions and social systems time to help the person out. _______ Indians aged 18-19 at top engineering institutes are probably the most underdeveloped humans you will ever meet. These kids sacrifice their entire personal/social/philosophical development for 2-6 years, to study 12+ hrs/day for the IIT-JEE entrance exam. They have no life, no hobbies, no personal aspirations outside getting into IIT. Once they're in, they are often alone & underprepared for the general rigors of campus life. They feel too emotionally about their first relationship or they take their first failure too hard (I have had to talk my India CBSE top 10 rank friend out of harming himself, because he got a 'B' for the first time in his life. I kid you not). Every part of this process is exploitative and unfair to the children. But, in a country where getting into IIT/IISc opens doors to the world's elite, you can hardly fault them/ their families for simply optimizing for the best value proposition. _______ IMO, top Engineering institutes in India need to allow students some time to breathe after they come in. Let them live out their high-school days in some capacity during their freshman year of college. Let them find an identity that isn't tied to their grades and studies. Lastly, but most importantly, teach them about mental health and struggles that they are bound to face. Help them truly grok that failure is an inevitable part of everyone's life. Unfortunately, I find that this is still under discussed even in elite universities in the US. What hope do these Indian institutes have?
- pddpro 5y ago
  You have written such a thoughtful reply that it honestly makes me sad. Why can't something so basic, that each of us feel within us does not occur to or resonate with hundreds of qualified (I imagine) administrators or policy makers? Or is it just that, only we see the sense?
nmstoker 5y ago
The title is ungrammatical. It should probably be corrected to: "To reduce student suicides by hanging from fans, institute in India removes fans"
approxim8ion 5y ago
Measures like this show clearly that their concern is legal liability, not student welfare. Will it meaningfully reduce the number of suicides on campus? It might. But that isn't, and shouldn't be, the point.
benatkin 5y ago
I think the students are right that it's a bad idea. They don't want to lose their fellow students to suicide, but are still against replacing the fans. They are young and inexperienced so maybe a simple majority would be easy to dismiss but this is 90%.
vishnugupta 5y ago
I wish the article had dwelled into IISc a bit more. It is one of the most sought after research institutions in India. Those who enter it are primarily motivated by an opportunity to advance their field. Though I haven't studied there I have interacted with those who have and have been to the campus on quite a few occasions. IISc is very different from IITs other much talked about institution. While latter is full of students from poor/middle-class trying to break out of their economic situation IISc is purely about research. Few understand the pressures a researcher at IISc goes through. Research is hard, more so in India and it takes its toll on some of the finest minds.
- mleonhard 5y ago
  Some students use drugs to enhance their performance. I expect that top schools have a lot more performance drug users than other schools. Many people using performance drugs do not rest enough, exercise, or manage stress. They eventually develop health problems like depression.
wcoenen 5y ago
Some context that is missing in the article: this university has about 4000 students. [1] So those 4 suicides this year represent 0.1% of the student population. For comparison, the suicide rate for the Indian population in general is closer to 0.01%. [2] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Institute_of_Science https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Institute_of_Science [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_in_India https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_in_India
tibbydudeza 5y ago
Hope they fit A/C because India can get bloody hot - you need a fan.
- moffkalast 5y ago
  Perhaps India should ban rope instead! /s
  - kelseyfrog 5y ago
    It's much easier to simply ban suicide.
    - moffkalast 5y ago
      Punishable by death.
HKH2 5y ago
How much weight can a ceiling fan hold?
aaron695 5y ago
"These anti-suicide fans might be the answer to a crisis in Kota" - https://www.deccanchronicle.com/lifestyle/viral-and-trending/300517/video-these-anti-suicide-fans-might-be-the-answer-to-a-crisis-in-kota.html https://www.deccanchronicle.com/lifestyle/viral-and-trending... ~2% of suicides in India are from fans. You probably go higher looking at just the cities. "Ligature material in hanging deaths: The neglected area in forensic examination" - https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2090536X1400046X https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2090536X1... > institute in India removes fans The current title is pretty clickbait, they are changing from ceiling fans to wall mounted fans. Not removing all fans. Suicide by ceiling fans is an acknowledged problem. This prison is developing anti-suicide fan tech as well - https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-03-17/ceiling-fans-removed-from-darwin-prison-after-two-deaths/13243268 https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-03-17/ceiling-fans-removed-... In the ultimate irony, covid which is causing this is better protected against with ceiling fans than wall mounted fans.
podgaj 5y ago
Why take down the fans? It’s survival of the fittest! /sarc Humanity is fine with creating unneeded suffering in others but we will alway draw the line at ending human suffering. It is the same with the homeless. Society is fine with us living on the street but will give you immediate housing if you want to end your suffering by suicide. So, we could restructure education and society in a way that would eliminate suffering. Does anyone want to talk about that?
- GhettoComputers 5y ago
  Artificial selection. Society probably won’t be improved by smart kids killing themselves.
Wildgoose 5y ago
Wouldn't it make more sense to alter the ceiling fans so that excess weight (e.g. a body) will cause them to detach from the ceiling, preferably also triggering an alarm?
- aitchnyu 5y ago
  I remember an Indian inventor who made a prototype, wonder how it went.
- ctvo 5y ago
  It may even make more sense to address the root cause of the suicides rather than the method used! You’ll need to resolve for balconies next.
MrFantastic 5y ago
Living in 100F+ heat might with no fans might make you suicidal.
- GhettoComputers 5y ago
  I went to a good magnet school with no fans or AC on the highest floor. It made such little sense to have the brightest students pass out, nap, not be able to learn and only one teacher had an AC he personally brought in.
cascom 5y ago
Isn’t this just a question of ease of substitution? If it’s a trivial to substitute hang yourself from x vs y or substitute Hanging for handful of pills - is the marginal benefit really there? I suspect not, but I do think from an administrators standpoint this has the effect of a) looking like they are doing something, b) pushing [embarrasing] suicides off campus/out of sight.
ph2082 5y ago
Providing psychological counselling to students would be better approach. IISC, definitely have money. Even a part time mentah health professional will do.
GhettoComputers 5y ago
Is this not the same argument with gun control? Remove the guns, solves gun violence? On a similar note, I don’t think that teaching mental health is the solution. The pressures in India are terrible. MIT in the US has no legacy program, and has the highest suicide rates, and I know a few people that were committed rapidly and diagnosed haphazardly. This prevents suicide by imprisoning them in powerful psychoactive drugs (antipsychotics) and labeling them as schizophrenic, holding them against their free will to lower suicide stats. The underlying issue is the pressure to succeed, and they will never remove that in India.
sizzle 5y ago
What is causing high suicide rates in students? Is it the immense pressure to get perfect test results so they can be seen as successful by their overbearing parents who will label them as failures if they do not rank at the top of their class?

159 points by tangoalpha 5y ago

Fantastic solution. Another way would be to remove students' heads, which would be equally effective.

Blame the fans, so what is the next thing they will remove, floors above 2nd, sharp objects, electricity? Everything else but not the cause ...

PostThisTooFast 5y ago
Step 2: Remove the students
Ygg2 5y ago
However making suicide harder, does reduce the suicide rate. https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/means-matter/means-matter/saves-lives/ https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/means-matter/means-matter/saves...
- stevefan1999 5y ago
  and people who wanted to kill himself will eventually do it regardlessly
  - wutbrodo 5y ago
    That's precisely the opposite of the point being made in the parent comment's link. Do you have any rebuttal to the evidence that source contains?
  - ashtonkem 5y ago
    That is a common meme, but it’s wrong. For every ten people who attempt suicide and fail, only one will eventually die by suicide[0]. 70% of survivors will never even reattempt suicide, and only 7% or so of suicide survivors will eventually successfully commit suicide. Furthermore, I’m disturbed by the cavalier attitude here. Suicide isn’t a predestined thing that we’re helpless to prevent as a society. There is real suffering and we can do something about it in aggregate. Framing it as something “they’ll do anyways” is both factually incorrect, and absolves society of any responsibility to help prevent suicide. 0 - https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/means-matter/means-matter/survival/ https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/means-matter/means-matter/survi...
    - laumars 5y ago
      > Furthermore, I’m disturbed by the cavalier attitude here. Suicide isn’t a predestined thing that we’re helpless to prevent as a society. That wasn’t the point that people were making. The point they were making is that removing fans doesn’t address the underlying mental health issues. If anything, arguing that everyone is ok now because fewer people are dying is the cavalier attitude because it overlooks the daily struggles that many will still be having. Thus regardless of the points you’ve put excellently in your first paragraph, the students mental health issues do also need to be addressed too. So I see your rebuttal as complimentary to the other points rather than fully dismissing them (ie it shouldn’t be “either/or” but rather “both things needs doing”).
      - ashtonkem 5y ago
        > That wasn’t the point that people were making. The point they were making is that removing fans doesn’t address the underlying mental health issues. That is a fair argument, but not how I interpreted GP. In the context it seemed like they were arguing against any measure that removes means of suicide away from people because “they’ll just do it regardless”. > If anything, arguing that everyone is ok now because fewer people are dying Literally nobody here is saying this. Everyone here has acknowledged that this doesn’t solve the underlying mental health issues (or material issues, per a now dead comment), but might be a good band aid (over a “bullet wound” per another commenter). What’s more common here is the acknowledgment that this doesn’t solve the mental health issue, and the grim realization that the university won’t do anything about it either way.
- kfarr 5y ago
  However removing the fan ostensibly makes the room warmer, which increases the suicide rate. https://news.stanford.edu/2018/07/23/warming-temperatures-linked-increased-suicide-rates/ https://news.stanford.edu/2018/07/23/warming-temperatures-li...
  - irjustin 5y ago
    From the article, the data is muddy and cause-effect is not claimable: > For example, the effects in Texas are some of the highest in the country. Suicide rates have not declined over recent decades, even with the introduction and wide adaptation of air conditioning. If anything, the researchers say, the effect has grown stronger over time.
  - seanmcdirmid 5y ago
    They are replacing ceiling fans with wall mounted fans, otherwise non suicide death by heat exhaustion would increase. India is a poorer developing country, so actual AC in the dorms is still out of the question.
    - rg111 5y ago
      This is literally the #1 institute in India. If they want, they can get ACs.
      - seanmcdirmid 5y ago
        Why would you think that? The top universities in places like India and China get their positions mainly by selecting the brightest students, they don’t actually throw a lot resources their way, and these students are often paying their living expenses themselves or with a small stipend or subsidy.
        rg111 5y ago
        No, I know multiple people who presently live there and have lived there in the past. This is also one of the richest universities of India- not merely one of the best. I also heard of someone who studied medicine at AIIMS Delhi. It is another of rich institutions of India. The rooms, although small, will match a 3 star hotel in terms of amenities. The same is simply not true for IISc. Despite being one of the richest unis of India, their amenities do not match that of AIIMS Delhi. But that institute is not cash-sterved as Indian institutes go. The labs are great, the faculties are the same. Many of them can easily teach at any US uni. What I think is the reason of absence of ACs in rooms is the Bangalore weather. During most of the year, you really don't need an AC or even a ceiling fan.
- NiceWayToDoIT 5y ago
  As there are many ways to commit suicide, school could equally tie everyone in padded cells, and tube feed students in order to avoid any suicide. Be careful when using such studies, as future AI may use those and similar - to remove all freedoms from humans, arguing that humans are dangerous for themselves, thus creating new Matrix?! Root cause can be maybe a terrible education system and society that is fit more for robots then humans. It just feels wrong blaming individuals for not wanting to participate in it.
  - taneq 5y ago
    Thus creating a NEW Matrix? You've said too much!
    - weregiraffe 5y ago
      This will be the sixth time we have destroyed it, and we have become exceedingly efficient at it.
    - NiceWayToDoIT 5y ago
      Imaginative scenario so to politely avoid pointing finger to overly corrupt governments and individuals that could use similar excuse to limit your freedom, in one way or another.
- SapporoChris 5y ago
  It's a boondoggle. With a bonus effect of increasing deaths from extreme heat. Now, it might seem rude of me, but I am against killing people that want to live in order to maybe save people that want to die. edit In addition, 88 per cent of students said they did not think that “replacing ceiling fans with wall-mounted fans in all IISc hostels (would) help curb student suicide”. Read more at: https://www.deccanherald.com/city/students-say-iisc-removing-fans-to-prevent-suicides-1061221.html https://www.deccanherald.com/city/students-say-iisc-removing... I still say it's a boondoggle, the resources could be better spent elsewhere. However, this looks like a really small matter, one institute of learning a relatively small number of suicides. I'm going to relax and not worry about it. end edit
  - bongoman37 5y ago
    Bangalore has fairly moderate climate, and also, they are providing wall mounted fans instead of ceiling fans.
  - neuroma 5y ago
    > Now, it might seem rude of me, but I am against killing people that want to live in order to maybe save people that want to die. The point is that most times people who commit suicide don't want to die, they simply feel life is currently so awful, and they is so little hope of change, that there is no alternative. Those thoughts are usually transitory and people on the other side express relief that steps were taken to stop them, buying time in which to heal.
  - spoonjim 5y ago
    * Bangalore has negligible deaths from extreme heat. It does not get very hot there. * Student polling is not a good way of assessing the likely impact on suicides.
- AnIdiotOnTheNet 5y ago
  And making food harder to get reduces obesity.
Borrible 5y ago
> The institute is also said to have started to restrict student access to terraces and rooftops Apparently, they already thought about that.
- ashtonkem 5y ago
  Assuming teenagers and low 20 something’s are the similar the world over, they should have restricted access to terraces and rooftops for a variety of reasons unrelated to suicide. Alcohol and heights tend not to be very close friends, and my college restricted access to the latter as much as they could (the former was a lost cause).
  - Borrible 5y ago
    As a father of two in that age group, I would prefer to restrict their access especially to my precious world of perfect tranquility. Assuming teenagers and low 20 something's are the similar the world over, which I find a bit debatable, there still is the question whether there were or are better models to cope with puberty and coming of age for the individual and society.
  - perth 5y ago
    Honestly my university giving us rooftop access for working on and setting up radio equipment was one of the most educational and enriching things I did there. Restricting access to rooftops for students seems like a terrible idea for education, where a lot of science literally happens on rooftops, whether with antennas or telescopes. (some students used the rooftop access to monitor fukushima reactor radiation in the atmosphere as well!) Also: Never had a single accident or suicide for over 2 decades
    - medstrom 5y ago
      You could get a ladder if you need a rooftop for a science project, right?
      - deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
ricardobeat 5y ago
Next step is to remove the students. Problem solved!

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

jeroenhd 5y ago

Thi will never cure the underlying cause of suicides, of course, but adding even slight obstacles has proven to have an effect on suicide rates. Many suicides aren't thoughtfully planned out, but are just a combination of motive and easy opportunity. Even adding something as seemingly silly as a moderately difficult to climb fence to a bridge can reduce suicide rates. This is a fine measure, assuming that it's followed by investment into mental health. I do believe it'll save lives, even if it's just a few, but the necessity proves that there's still a lot that needs to be done.

AdrianB1 5y ago
This looks as bikeshedding. If you want to eliminate suicides, finding and fixing the motivation to commit the act is the way to go. Having a fan on a ceiling is not an opportunity, just one of the many available means to an end and not a compelling one, so it is really a way to pretending to care while not doing the right thing.
- GavinMcG 5y ago
  Well, it turns out your intuitions on this one are wrong. Means restriction is one of the most empirically supported suicide-prevention strategies. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6191653/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6191653/
  - AdrianB1 5y ago
    I am not convinced it is as effective as pretended, otherwise the Mapo Bridge in Seoul would be razed and the Aokigahara Forest in Japan would be fenced with barbed wire.
  - derbOac 5y ago
    I think the point is, does removing fans make someone less depressed in the long run, or increase their quality of life? If someone still wants to kill themselves, but cannot because all means have been eliminated, have you solved any problems? I'm honestly not sure that I'd argue it doesn't increase quality of life, but using suicide prevention as an outcome seems superficial to me.

kkcorps 5y ago

Lol, who comes up with this stuff.

nnain 5y ago
Seriously! Indian govt institutes are so blasé about modernizing their ways that it's embarrassing.

nnain 5y ago

So the Indian Institute of Sciences hasn't got the memorandum on psychological counselling yet?

TedDoesntTalk 5y ago
I’ve been told by several Indian colleagues that mental health services in India are taboo, and generally reserved for the high dysfunctional who cannot be an active part in society (think very schizophrenic, for example). Is that accurate or old information?
- kylehotchkiss 5y ago
  (Former expat who spent a few years living near Delhi) you’d never see a person going crazy on the streets in India like they do in California. Their government provides some services to help people in those situations. Many families provide support to members with a mental illness. However there’s little safety nets if you lose your job and your family relies on you, there aren’t as many chances to “catch up” or “get back on your feet” like you could in developed countries which does lead to suicide when people struggle with school or jobs. This unfortunately impacted many in the early Covid days. That looming fear of “one mistake and this all is over” is just a lot of weight to hold on your shoulders. Indian readers, this is just my interpretation of things from spending several years living there. Please point out any inaccuracies in my thoughts as I’m still interested in understanding these issues better.
  - seanmcdirmid 5y ago
    > you’d never see a person going crazy on the streets in India like they do in California. I’ve visited Delhi before, and at the time was accosted by a seemingly insane beggar. I have yet to visit a developing country that didn’t have a few crazy people on the streets.
- nnain 5y ago
  The awareness is growing now, especially in the internet generation. A lot of people in rural areas are quite out of touch with basic healthcare, let alone mental healthcare. India is too big to generalise: from Instagram influencers to beggars (watching whom will break your heart), there's a whole everything.

robbedpeter 5y ago

The beatings will continue until morale improves.

moffkalast 5y ago
India's fanbase instantly reduced to zero.

dt3ft 5y ago

Great. That should do it. /s

jazzabeanie 5y ago

The real tragedy here is the people who continue to live in horrible suffering, wanting to die but not being able to.

jaimex2 5y ago

Melbourne, Victoria had a similar thing with its bridge. $20 million solution: https://www.theage.com.au/national/victoria/government-to-be-sued-over-west-gate-suicide-barriers-20141220-12bbb2.html https://www.theage.com.au/national/victoria/government-to-be... Views crossing the bridge are a nice touch now as you enter the worlds most locked down city.

bayesian_horse 5y ago

Even if poor access to mental health resources is the root course, it is the right choice to make sure students survive longer to have a chance to get help. Not enough, not even a start, but the right choice.

viach 5y ago

They missed the obvious option, to firbid high schools (this will remove students)

99_00 5y ago

I think making suicide less accessible will result in fewer suicides on campus. And I think making it more accessible will increase its rate. Seems obvious. But the headline isn't about that. It's about tut-tutting this backward institution. Because we, and the students union knows everything the school is doing to curb suicides beyond removing fans. Can they do more? Maybe. How would I know. I've never heard of this school before.

neuroma 5y ago

Obviously an emotive topic and I hope to tread lightly. Overwhelmingly people who have bear miss suicide attempts later are glad they did not do it. Suicide is rarely a release from trouble, causing massive problems for those who are left, often burdening them with a lifetime of struggle. Naturally we ache at the thought of removing useful ceilung fans rather than addressing the root cause. Yet who would criticise a seat belt, saying we just need to drive safely? Suicide is hard to reliably predict despite substantial efforts to do so. One if the models I've found useful is that of thwarted belongingness and perceived burdensomeness. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3377972/#!po=40.0794 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3377972/#!po=40...

screye 5y ago

I think this is a genuinely good idea. (which should obviously be accompanied by actual rehabilitative options and de-stigmatization of mental health) I went to similar institute in India (NIT, the proverbial first losers), and 3 students hung themselves over the span on 2 years. (1 acquaintance, 1 friend) From what was made public, their decision to commit suicide was a rash one, tied to the fear of failure. (one was a break up) I have been depressed before, and I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy. But, the decision to go from crushing depression to suicide is often fast (span on a few days) and genuinely reversible, as long as the person lives. We know that far more men die due to suicide, due to their choice of a more fatal weapon (gun to the dead > slashing veins). Making it harder to commit suicide gives institutions and social systems time to help the person out. _______ Indians aged 18-19 at top engineering institutes are probably the most underdeveloped humans you will ever meet. These kids sacrifice their entire personal/social/philosophical development for 2-6 years, to study 12+ hrs/day for the IIT-JEE entrance exam. They have no life, no hobbies, no personal aspirations outside getting into IIT. Once they're in, they are often alone & underprepared for the general rigors of campus life. They feel too emotionally about their first relationship or they take their first failure too hard (I have had to talk my India CBSE top 10 rank friend out of harming himself, because he got a 'B' for the first time in his life. I kid you not). Every part of this process is exploitative and unfair to the children. But, in a country where getting into IIT/IISc opens doors to the world's elite, you can hardly fault them/ their families for simply optimizing for the best value proposition. _______ IMO, top Engineering institutes in India need to allow students some time to breathe after they come in. Let them live out their high-school days in some capacity during their freshman year of college. Let them find an identity that isn't tied to their grades and studies. Lastly, but most importantly, teach them about mental health and struggles that they are bound to face. Help them truly grok that failure is an inevitable part of everyone's life. Unfortunately, I find that this is still under discussed even in elite universities in the US. What hope do these Indian institutes have?

pddpro 5y ago
You have written such a thoughtful reply that it honestly makes me sad. Why can't something so basic, that each of us feel within us does not occur to or resonate with hundreds of qualified (I imagine) administrators or policy makers? Or is it just that, only we see the sense?

nmstoker 5y ago

The title is ungrammatical. It should probably be corrected to: "To reduce student suicides by hanging from fans, institute in India removes fans"

approxim8ion 5y ago

Measures like this show clearly that their concern is legal liability, not student welfare. Will it meaningfully reduce the number of suicides on campus? It might. But that isn't, and shouldn't be, the point.

benatkin 5y ago

I think the students are right that it's a bad idea. They don't want to lose their fellow students to suicide, but are still against replacing the fans. They are young and inexperienced so maybe a simple majority would be easy to dismiss but this is 90%.

vishnugupta 5y ago

I wish the article had dwelled into IISc a bit more. It is one of the most sought after research institutions in India. Those who enter it are primarily motivated by an opportunity to advance their field. Though I haven't studied there I have interacted with those who have and have been to the campus on quite a few occasions. IISc is very different from IITs other much talked about institution. While latter is full of students from poor/middle-class trying to break out of their economic situation IISc is purely about research. Few understand the pressures a researcher at IISc goes through. Research is hard, more so in India and it takes its toll on some of the finest minds.

mleonhard 5y ago
Some students use drugs to enhance their performance. I expect that top schools have a lot more performance drug users than other schools. Many people using performance drugs do not rest enough, exercise, or manage stress. They eventually develop health problems like depression.

wcoenen 5y ago

Some context that is missing in the article: this university has about 4000 students. [1] So those 4 suicides this year represent 0.1% of the student population. For comparison, the suicide rate for the Indian population in general is closer to 0.01%. [2] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Institute_of_Science https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Institute_of_Science [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_in_India https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_in_India

tibbydudeza 5y ago

Hope they fit A/C because India can get bloody hot - you need a fan.

moffkalast 5y ago
Perhaps India should ban rope instead! /s
- kelseyfrog 5y ago
  It's much easier to simply ban suicide.
  - moffkalast 5y ago
    Punishable by death.

HKH2 5y ago

How much weight can a ceiling fan hold?

aaron695 5y ago

"These anti-suicide fans might be the answer to a crisis in Kota" - https://www.deccanchronicle.com/lifestyle/viral-and-trending/300517/video-these-anti-suicide-fans-might-be-the-answer-to-a-crisis-in-kota.html https://www.deccanchronicle.com/lifestyle/viral-and-trending... ~2% of suicides in India are from fans. You probably go higher looking at just the cities. "Ligature material in hanging deaths: The neglected area in forensic examination" - https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2090536X1400046X https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2090536X1... > institute in India removes fans The current title is pretty clickbait, they are changing from ceiling fans to wall mounted fans. Not removing all fans. Suicide by ceiling fans is an acknowledged problem. This prison is developing anti-suicide fan tech as well - https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-03-17/ceiling-fans-removed-from-darwin-prison-after-two-deaths/13243268 https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-03-17/ceiling-fans-removed-... In the ultimate irony, covid which is causing this is better protected against with ceiling fans than wall mounted fans.

podgaj 5y ago

Why take down the fans? It’s survival of the fittest! /sarc Humanity is fine with creating unneeded suffering in others but we will alway draw the line at ending human suffering. It is the same with the homeless. Society is fine with us living on the street but will give you immediate housing if you want to end your suffering by suicide. So, we could restructure education and society in a way that would eliminate suffering. Does anyone want to talk about that?

GhettoComputers 5y ago
Artificial selection. Society probably won’t be improved by smart kids killing themselves.

Wildgoose 5y ago

Wouldn't it make more sense to alter the ceiling fans so that excess weight (e.g. a body) will cause them to detach from the ceiling, preferably also triggering an alarm?

aitchnyu 5y ago
I remember an Indian inventor who made a prototype, wonder how it went.
ctvo 5y ago
It may even make more sense to address the root cause of the suicides rather than the method used! You’ll need to resolve for balconies next.

MrFantastic 5y ago

Living in 100F+ heat might with no fans might make you suicidal.

GhettoComputers 5y ago
I went to a good magnet school with no fans or AC on the highest floor. It made such little sense to have the brightest students pass out, nap, not be able to learn and only one teacher had an AC he personally brought in.

cascom 5y ago

Isn’t this just a question of ease of substitution? If it’s a trivial to substitute hang yourself from x vs y or substitute Hanging for handful of pills - is the marginal benefit really there? I suspect not, but I do think from an administrators standpoint this has the effect of a) looking like they are doing something, b) pushing [embarrasing] suicides off campus/out of sight.

ph2082 5y ago

Providing psychological counselling to students would be better approach. IISC, definitely have money. Even a part time mentah health professional will do.

GhettoComputers 5y ago

Is this not the same argument with gun control? Remove the guns, solves gun violence? On a similar note, I don’t think that teaching mental health is the solution. The pressures in India are terrible. MIT in the US has no legacy program, and has the highest suicide rates, and I know a few people that were committed rapidly and diagnosed haphazardly. This prevents suicide by imprisoning them in powerful psychoactive drugs (antipsychotics) and labeling them as schizophrenic, holding them against their free will to lower suicide stats. The underlying issue is the pressure to succeed, and they will never remove that in India.

sizzle 5y ago

What is causing high suicide rates in students? Is it the immense pressure to get perfect test results so they can be seen as successful by their overbearing parents who will label them as failures if they do not rank at the top of their class?