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> "We need work" is a social fact, nothing more, and it's only true as much as it's believed to be true. Having gone through a handful of periods of a few mont

> "We need work" is a social fact, nothing more, and it's only true as much as it's believed to be true. Having gone through a handful of periods of a few months where I wasn’t working and was also not engaged in an existential struggle for survival, I have to disagree here. Personally, I know that I need a focus for my intellectual life. It needn’t be employment, but “work” is a fair way to describe it. I can spend two or three weeks idling most of the time, but after that I need something to direct my energy and concentration toward. I need a goal that stretches my abilities, or I find myself constantly battling a depressive spiral.

aulin 5y ago
That's not work, that's life. The opposite of working is not idling, it is spending your time in activities that realize your self without being constrained by the survival struggle.
- as300 5y ago
  I think his point (and the broader point being assumed by the author) was that "spending your time in activities that realize your self" does, in fact, feel a lot like work.
  - aulin 5y ago
    And that's true for a limited subset of people lucky to work in a field where the two aspects overlap.
    - as300 5y ago
      I still don't think you understand. If your passion is painting, and its something you would do for free, then fulfilling your artistic potential is still work. It still requires hours upon hours of deliberate practice. The great masters would spend years working on a single painting. You don't think there would be times when they just didn't feel like making progress? Where they wanted to just take the day off and hang out at a bar with their friends? Part of the human condition is struggle, imo. That's what I think the OP is getting at when he says that human beings need work. Maybe not a 9-5, but we all need something worth staving off instant gratification for.
- jimbokun 5y ago
  Semantics. Some people still consider tasks they enjoy doing a form of "work". Work doesn't have to be compensated activities engaged in out of a desperate need to provide basic necessities. Just different people using the same word to mean different things.
zepto 5y ago
I agree with this, but “work” is an utterly terrible word to use to describe it.
antisthenes 5y ago
That's too vague and inaccurate to be meaningful. What people need is to be able to channel their energy into something productive, whether it be learning, hobbies, helping others in a meaningful way, or maybe some sort of self-improvement in terms of health. I suppose you could put all of that under the vague umbrella of "work", but for the purpose of having a conversation that's not arguing about semantics, work is what most people do to generate an income to support their life goals and activities. > Having gone through a handful of periods of a few months where I wasn’t working and was also not engaged in an existential struggle for survival, I have to disagree here. I've also gone through a few such periods, in between jobs. Best time of my life. Even though I didn't accomplish a whole lot during it that you could put on paper and call work. Learned a few things, improved friendships, and did a little room remodel.
ravitation 5y ago
> Personally, I know that I need a focus for my intellectual life. Would your abilities feel stretched by being a cashier? How about a janitor? Waiter? These jobs are what "work" actually is for most people. I think most people could go without doing those things. Intellectual stimulation, or goals that stretch one's abilities, don't have to come from work (and for most people those things and "work" are hardly related at all). Therefore, saying we (as humans) "need" work is generally incorrect (at least for the reasons you stated) since most people don't even get what you say we "need" from work anyway.
- jimbokun 5y ago
  > Intellectual stimulation, or goals that stretch one's abilities, don't have to come from work Just different definitions of "work". I think the sense meant by those saying people "need work" is "meaningful toil". Something that requires focused effort, and done for some tangible purpose. So cashier, janitor, waiter would fit that broad definition, even though they are not a focus of intellectual life. But there can be other types of work that also fulfill intellectual needs, that might be more fulfilling for many (most? all?) people.
  - ravitation 5y ago
    > Just different definitions of "work". I'm going to disagree on this simplification. There is a common definition of work, e.g. the definition used in the context of work/life balance (i.e. the context of the original article), that is widely used; redefining it to be as broad as you've described is detrimental to the conversation. > Something that requires focused effort, and done for some tangible purpose. Essentially everything can be made to fit this definition, making it, I think, not very useful.
  - romwell 5y ago
    >I think the sense meant by those saying people "need work" is "meaningful toil". The author literally said "We need food. We need shelter." right after saying we need work. I meaningfully toiled over a 3D print of a twisted hexagonal mesh over a tube around a 5,4 torus knot yesterday. Guess how much it helped me pay rent.
20211215throw 5y ago
> Having gone through a handful of periods of a few months where I wasn’t working and was also not engaged in an existential struggle for survival, I have to disagree here. Sure but that is taking a short break from your job/career. Its not like leaving school and never working.
psyc 5y ago
I recommend Factorio and Shenzhen IO as alternative forms of self employment. And it’s true self employment, in that you’ll need to pay yourself too.
jfzoid 5y ago
> Personally, I know that I need a focus for my intellectual life. It needn’t be employment, but “work” is a fair way to describe it. "It is difficult for a man who always has a full stomach to put his mind to some use. Are there not players of liubo and go? Even playing these games is better than being idle." -- Confucious
Mezzie 5y ago
Could you accept "We need projects" as a revision?
goodpoint 5y ago
> I need a focus for my intellectual life. It needn’t be employment, but “work” is a fair way to describe it. Intellectual life and work are completely orthogonal. People have been taught to confuse them because it benefits the ruling class.
- goodpoint 5y ago
  LOL, so many downvotes...
romwell 5y ago
>Personally, I know that I need a focus for my intellectual life. It needn’t be employment, but “work” is a fair way to describe it. Alas, alas, work has been co-opted to mean employment in most people's minds. There's learning, there's helping, there's contributing, there are a million things that aren't idling and require effort, but net you with no money. So they don't count as "work".

aulin 5y ago

That's not work, that's life. The opposite of working is not idling, it is spending your time in activities that realize your self without being constrained by the survival struggle.

as300 5y ago
I think his point (and the broader point being assumed by the author) was that "spending your time in activities that realize your self" does, in fact, feel a lot like work.
- aulin 5y ago
  And that's true for a limited subset of people lucky to work in a field where the two aspects overlap.
  - as300 5y ago
    I still don't think you understand. If your passion is painting, and its something you would do for free, then fulfilling your artistic potential is still work. It still requires hours upon hours of deliberate practice. The great masters would spend years working on a single painting. You don't think there would be times when they just didn't feel like making progress? Where they wanted to just take the day off and hang out at a bar with their friends? Part of the human condition is struggle, imo. That's what I think the OP is getting at when he says that human beings need work. Maybe not a 9-5, but we all need something worth staving off instant gratification for.
jimbokun 5y ago
Semantics. Some people still consider tasks they enjoy doing a form of "work". Work doesn't have to be compensated activities engaged in out of a desperate need to provide basic necessities. Just different people using the same word to mean different things.

zepto 5y ago

I agree with this, but “work” is an utterly terrible word to use to describe it.

antisthenes 5y ago

That's too vague and inaccurate to be meaningful. What people need is to be able to channel their energy into something productive, whether it be learning, hobbies, helping others in a meaningful way, or maybe some sort of self-improvement in terms of health. I suppose you could put all of that under the vague umbrella of "work", but for the purpose of having a conversation that's not arguing about semantics, work is what most people do to generate an income to support their life goals and activities. > Having gone through a handful of periods of a few months where I wasn’t working and was also not engaged in an existential struggle for survival, I have to disagree here. I've also gone through a few such periods, in between jobs. Best time of my life. Even though I didn't accomplish a whole lot during it that you could put on paper and call work. Learned a few things, improved friendships, and did a little room remodel.

ravitation 5y ago

> Personally, I know that I need a focus for my intellectual life. Would your abilities feel stretched by being a cashier? How about a janitor? Waiter? These jobs are what "work" actually is for most people. I think most people could go without doing those things. Intellectual stimulation, or goals that stretch one's abilities, don't have to come from work (and for most people those things and "work" are hardly related at all). Therefore, saying we (as humans) "need" work is generally incorrect (at least for the reasons you stated) since most people don't even get what you say we "need" from work anyway.

jimbokun 5y ago
> Intellectual stimulation, or goals that stretch one's abilities, don't have to come from work Just different definitions of "work". I think the sense meant by those saying people "need work" is "meaningful toil". Something that requires focused effort, and done for some tangible purpose. So cashier, janitor, waiter would fit that broad definition, even though they are not a focus of intellectual life. But there can be other types of work that also fulfill intellectual needs, that might be more fulfilling for many (most? all?) people.
- ravitation 5y ago
  > Just different definitions of "work". I'm going to disagree on this simplification. There is a common definition of work, e.g. the definition used in the context of work/life balance (i.e. the context of the original article), that is widely used; redefining it to be as broad as you've described is detrimental to the conversation. > Something that requires focused effort, and done for some tangible purpose. Essentially everything can be made to fit this definition, making it, I think, not very useful.
- romwell 5y ago
  >I think the sense meant by those saying people "need work" is "meaningful toil". The author literally said "We need food. We need shelter." right after saying we need work. I meaningfully toiled over a 3D print of a twisted hexagonal mesh over a tube around a 5,4 torus knot yesterday. Guess how much it helped me pay rent.

20211215throw 5y ago

> Having gone through a handful of periods of a few months where I wasn’t working and was also not engaged in an existential struggle for survival, I have to disagree here. Sure but that is taking a short break from your job/career. Its not like leaving school and never working.

psyc 5y ago

I recommend Factorio and Shenzhen IO as alternative forms of self employment. And it’s true self employment, in that you’ll need to pay yourself too.

jfzoid 5y ago

> Personally, I know that I need a focus for my intellectual life. It needn’t be employment, but “work” is a fair way to describe it. "It is difficult for a man who always has a full stomach to put his mind to some use. Are there not players of liubo and go? Even playing these games is better than being idle." -- Confucious

Mezzie 5y ago

Could you accept "We need projects" as a revision?

goodpoint 5y ago

> I need a focus for my intellectual life. It needn’t be employment, but “work” is a fair way to describe it. Intellectual life and work are completely orthogonal. People have been taught to confuse them because it benefits the ruling class.

goodpoint 5y ago
LOL, so many downvotes...

romwell 5y ago

>Personally, I know that I need a focus for my intellectual life. It needn’t be employment, but “work” is a fair way to describe it. Alas, alas, work has been co-opted to mean employment in most people's minds. There's learning, there's helping, there's contributing, there are a million things that aren't idling and require effort, but net you with no money. So they don't count as "work".