4 ms·

> The "scanning" feature that underpins this has been deployed for years Yes, I agree that your phone has the ability to find stuff like this based on ML etc.

by ItsBob 5y ago

> The "scanning" feature that underpins this has been deployed for years Yes, I agree that your phone has the ability to find stuff like this based on ML etc. However, if their algorithm finds something that matches a hash of child porn, you'll be reported (after notification or something, can't remember). Can you imagine what that would do to people? The risk of fucking this up and destroying someone's life is far too high. It's a stigma that will never go away even if it's proven false. And what if the government decides that they want to ruin a political adversary? The technology is there to report them, rightly or wrongly, for child porn on their phone and ruin them. Again, proving that it was false will not be enough if it leaked out in the first place. In my opinion, it's my phone (yes, yes, I know they all dial home to the mothership, I only lease it etc.) and I should have complete say over it and this is one more step away from that goal. It's on the dystopian highway imo.

sweetheart 5y ago
> matches a hash of child porn, you'll be reported After 30 hits (so 30 false positives), and then the photos are manually reviewed by a human being. How did people never understand this? How on _Earth_ would people's live be randomly destroyed by this? The reviewer would take one look (or 30) and immediately realize it's not illicit. Crisis averted. But the chances of those 30 false positives actually all being in someone's iCloud was like astronomically unlikely. > And what if the government decides that they want to ruin a political adversary? Then you're already fucked, and the child porn scanning software won't be what makes it possible to ruin your life.
- ItsBob 5y ago
  And if the government makes it illegal to have a certain document, or a book, what happens then? You can guarantee Apple will report you. They have to. It will be the law. It will be used for human rights abuses. Guaranteed.
  - sweetheart 5y ago
    This falls under the "you're already fucked" part of my argument. If it becomes illegal to have a file, or a book, or an image, then the entire tech ecosystem we all use everyday is completely untrustworthy. Is that an issue? Sure! Is it a new issue, or specific to Apple's implementation? Nope.
    - oarsinsync 5y ago
      > If it becomes illegal to have a file, or a book, or an image This is already true in certain circumstances. > then the entire tech ecosystem we all use everyday is completely untrustworthy. This depends on what tech you use. The degree to which you cannot trust it, or need to understand that it is actively working against you, varies by platform. Nearly all platforms undermine you in different ways. Some of those platforms do so in a way in which you're ok with. > Is that an issue? Sure! Is it a new issue, or specific to Apple's implementation? Nope. Agree to disagree. I don't mind cloud services (someone else's computer) scanning my data and working against me. I do mind my computer scanning my data and working against me.
- krapp 5y ago
  >After 30 hits, the photos are manually reviewed by a human being. How did people never understand this? How on _Earth_ would people's live be randomly destroyed by this? Many people here simply assume all governments and corporations are simultaneously that evil and that incompetent. The aggressive cynicism of this forum and its reticence to engage with content before commenting undermines its pretense at informed technical acumen and civil discussion in many ways.
  - sweetheart 5y ago
    Good ol' Hacker News, baby!
- sseagull 5y ago
  I understand this. But am also aware of how processes work out over longer timeframes. Not too many people get caught, review team gets downsized since it is not a revenue generator. Maybe we can replace it with ML! How many stories do we have on HN about overworked employees reviewing horrible material? Or about how impossible it is to contact support? Just because there is a good system in place now doesn’t mean it will stay there.
- simion314 5y ago
  >After 30 hits (so 30 false positives), and then the photos are manually reviewed by a human being. How did people never understand this? How on _Earth_ would people's live be randomly destroyed by this? Don't be naive, the governments will demand that matches on the "special" hashes will be reviewed by local government people. There is a similar feature in the "child safety" package that scans for stuff in chat messages and probably (maybe soon) in documents that are received ), so the code is in place to have an uninstallable "antivirus/antiCSAM/antipiracy" on your device that you must trust both Apple and your goverment that does what is promised but 100% you can't just delete the executable to have piece of mind.
  - kergonath 5y ago
    > Don't be naive, the governments will demand that matches on the "special" hashes will be reviewed by local government people. Seriously, if a government is after you, they will get you regardless of the content of your phone. In a country with decent laws, just a match is woefully insufficient to demonstrate someone’s guilt, and they will need some proof. In other countries, laws do not matter so they can just get you without issue. They have done it for quite a long time and are doing it today. All of this also points to the complete absurdity of this mass hysteria: it is insane to ruin someone’s life just because they have a picture on their device. It is just thoughtcrime, at this point.
    - simion314 5y ago
      >All of this also points to the complete absurdity of this mass hysteria: it is insane to ruin someone’s life just because they have a picture on their device. It is just thoughtcrime, at this point. But it happened, some guy was falsely accursed because someone made a typo in an Ip address, he lost his job and he was forcefully kept away from his wife and children. >Seriously, if a government is after you, they will get you regardless of the content of your phone That is false, for example before 1989 listening to a certain radio station was illegal here in Romania but the government could not ask the guys the made the radio to give them a list with all people that listened to this radio station. Your claim is that the govberment knows my name and what I did they can fuck me up, that is true but this imnplies the gov already knows and has the proof, in this case without the file scanner they won't know I own political/religions materials that is illegal but after the file scanner runs and reports me , only then I am on the gov list. I hope is clear, tech makes the job of the bad gov easy, so in this case you as a random user you gai nothing from your device scanning for CSAM but many lose from this, the question is why if you gain nothing and this can be done with a simple iCloud scan? (because for sure it will be extended to private messages and documents)
- cle 5y ago
  > After 30 hits (so 30 false positives), and then the photos are manually reviewed by a human being. Sounds like a great gig for a pedophile.
- kergonath 5y ago
  > After 30 hits (so 30 false positives), and then the photos are manually reviewed by a human being. As much as I think the panic is way overblown, this bit is simply unacceptable, and they need to get nailed just for having thought this was a good idea. Nobody is to review personal photos; this is an insane breach of privacy.
threeseed 5y ago
I really just love these comments. You do know that Apple is scanning your photos server-side, right ? Just like Google, AWS, Yahoo etc anyone that stores your photos in the cloud.
- ItsBob 5y ago
  > You do know that Apple is scanning your photos server-side, right ? Yes. They have every right to. It's their servers. However, this is MY phone (ok, not mine, I don't use Apple devices but you get my point)
- IcyClAyMptHe 5y ago
  There's a fundamental difference between you sending files to a company server which are then scanned, and your own hardware constantly monitoring you for illegal activity so that it can report you to the authorities.

by ItsBob 5y ago

sweetheart 5y ago

> matches a hash of child porn, you'll be reported After 30 hits (so 30 false positives), and then the photos are manually reviewed by a human being. How did people never understand this? How on _Earth_ would people's live be randomly destroyed by this? The reviewer would take one look (or 30) and immediately realize it's not illicit. Crisis averted. But the chances of those 30 false positives actually all being in someone's iCloud was like astronomically unlikely. > And what if the government decides that they want to ruin a political adversary? Then you're already fucked, and the child porn scanning software won't be what makes it possible to ruin your life.

ItsBob 5y ago
And if the government makes it illegal to have a certain document, or a book, what happens then? You can guarantee Apple will report you. They have to. It will be the law. It will be used for human rights abuses. Guaranteed.
- sweetheart 5y ago
  This falls under the "you're already fucked" part of my argument. If it becomes illegal to have a file, or a book, or an image, then the entire tech ecosystem we all use everyday is completely untrustworthy. Is that an issue? Sure! Is it a new issue, or specific to Apple's implementation? Nope.
  - oarsinsync 5y ago
    > If it becomes illegal to have a file, or a book, or an image This is already true in certain circumstances. > then the entire tech ecosystem we all use everyday is completely untrustworthy. This depends on what tech you use. The degree to which you cannot trust it, or need to understand that it is actively working against you, varies by platform. Nearly all platforms undermine you in different ways. Some of those platforms do so in a way in which you're ok with. > Is that an issue? Sure! Is it a new issue, or specific to Apple's implementation? Nope. Agree to disagree. I don't mind cloud services (someone else's computer) scanning my data and working against me. I do mind my computer scanning my data and working against me.
krapp 5y ago
>After 30 hits, the photos are manually reviewed by a human being. How did people never understand this? How on _Earth_ would people's live be randomly destroyed by this? Many people here simply assume all governments and corporations are simultaneously that evil and that incompetent. The aggressive cynicism of this forum and its reticence to engage with content before commenting undermines its pretense at informed technical acumen and civil discussion in many ways.
- sweetheart 5y ago
  Good ol' Hacker News, baby!
sseagull 5y ago
I understand this. But am also aware of how processes work out over longer timeframes. Not too many people get caught, review team gets downsized since it is not a revenue generator. Maybe we can replace it with ML! How many stories do we have on HN about overworked employees reviewing horrible material? Or about how impossible it is to contact support? Just because there is a good system in place now doesn’t mean it will stay there.
simion314 5y ago
>After 30 hits (so 30 false positives), and then the photos are manually reviewed by a human being. How did people never understand this? How on _Earth_ would people's live be randomly destroyed by this? Don't be naive, the governments will demand that matches on the "special" hashes will be reviewed by local government people. There is a similar feature in the "child safety" package that scans for stuff in chat messages and probably (maybe soon) in documents that are received ), so the code is in place to have an uninstallable "antivirus/antiCSAM/antipiracy" on your device that you must trust both Apple and your goverment that does what is promised but 100% you can't just delete the executable to have piece of mind.
- kergonath 5y ago
  > Don't be naive, the governments will demand that matches on the "special" hashes will be reviewed by local government people. Seriously, if a government is after you, they will get you regardless of the content of your phone. In a country with decent laws, just a match is woefully insufficient to demonstrate someone’s guilt, and they will need some proof. In other countries, laws do not matter so they can just get you without issue. They have done it for quite a long time and are doing it today. All of this also points to the complete absurdity of this mass hysteria: it is insane to ruin someone’s life just because they have a picture on their device. It is just thoughtcrime, at this point.
  - simion314 5y ago
    >All of this also points to the complete absurdity of this mass hysteria: it is insane to ruin someone’s life just because they have a picture on their device. It is just thoughtcrime, at this point. But it happened, some guy was falsely accursed because someone made a typo in an Ip address, he lost his job and he was forcefully kept away from his wife and children. >Seriously, if a government is after you, they will get you regardless of the content of your phone That is false, for example before 1989 listening to a certain radio station was illegal here in Romania but the government could not ask the guys the made the radio to give them a list with all people that listened to this radio station. Your claim is that the govberment knows my name and what I did they can fuck me up, that is true but this imnplies the gov already knows and has the proof, in this case without the file scanner they won't know I own political/religions materials that is illegal but after the file scanner runs and reports me , only then I am on the gov list. I hope is clear, tech makes the job of the bad gov easy, so in this case you as a random user you gai nothing from your device scanning for CSAM but many lose from this, the question is why if you gain nothing and this can be done with a simple iCloud scan? (because for sure it will be extended to private messages and documents)
cle 5y ago
> After 30 hits (so 30 false positives), and then the photos are manually reviewed by a human being. Sounds like a great gig for a pedophile.
kergonath 5y ago
> After 30 hits (so 30 false positives), and then the photos are manually reviewed by a human being. As much as I think the panic is way overblown, this bit is simply unacceptable, and they need to get nailed just for having thought this was a good idea. Nobody is to review personal photos; this is an insane breach of privacy.

threeseed 5y ago

I really just love these comments. You do know that Apple is scanning your photos server-side, right ? Just like Google, AWS, Yahoo etc anyone that stores your photos in the cloud.

ItsBob 5y ago
> You do know that Apple is scanning your photos server-side, right ? Yes. They have every right to. It's their servers. However, this is MY phone (ok, not mine, I don't use Apple devices but you get my point)
IcyClAyMptHe 5y ago
There's a fundamental difference between you sending files to a company server which are then scanned, and your own hardware constantly monitoring you for illegal activity so that it can report you to the authorities.