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I believe the free market is like Darwinism for economic organisms: unintuitive and little understood by the regular folk, however working just fine nevertheles

by nickpp 5y ago

I believe the free market is like Darwinism for economic organisms: unintuitive and little understood by the regular folk, however working just fine nevertheless and able to solve and explain any issue without needing the intervention of an intelligent designer/regulator. People will still look for a planner though…

ClumsyPilot 5y ago
While you are admiring Darwinism, keep in mind that all-natural ecosystem collapse is a thing, and 6 all-natural mass extinction events had >90% of all living things disappear.
- WalterBright 5y ago
  > 6 all-natural mass extinction events Are you sure about that? Or have people just not discovered the cause yet? Pick one, let's explore it.
  - ClumsyPilot 5y ago
    Sure, the Oxygen Catastrophe, 2.3 billion years ago. I do, wonder, given that all the extinctions happened before humans existed, what possible alternative to 'natural' could there be, aliens?
    - WalterBright 5y ago
      > possible alternatives Asteroids, vulcanism are the usual culprits. There also could be cosmic ray bursts from exploding stars. > the Oxygen Catastrophe There seem to be many hypotheses about that: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Oxidation_Event https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Oxidation_Event and it isn't clear to me there was a collapse, but a gradual replacement.
      - WalterBright 5y ago
        P.S. Evolution is not a stable system, and free markets aren't stable, either. Socialism promises stability, but history shows it's even less stable, as it is unresponsive to market changes.
      - ClumsyPilot 5y ago
        "Asteroid and vulcanism are the usual culprits" That is nature, thats my point - it is brutal and murderous. If you don't want to die from them you don't rely on Darwinism and if you don't want economic collapse and famine every time a new strain of flue evolves you dont wait for 'muh free market' to save you.
        WalterBright 5y ago
        You might want to investigate the economic collapses caused by government run monetary systems. Like the Weimar Republic you mentioned - that collapse led to Nazism. Not a ringing endorsement for central banking, amirite? BTW, are you enjoying the 9% haircut we all got in the last year courtesy of central banking?
        ClumsyPilot 5y ago
        "Not a ringing endorsement for central banking, amirite?" Which type of spherical cow free-market economy should i compare it too? No matter what system i pick, from medieval gold based systems to modern floating currency, someone goes "ThaTs NoT Real Free MaRKet!" It's like communism, not real life system was ever the real deal.
        confidantlake 5y ago
        You can't, it is a religion.
        ClumsyPilot 5y ago
        I really think it is, amits ironic because they are ideologically oppose communists but act in the same way. Horseshoe effect in real life! https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horseshoe_theory#:~:text=In%20political%20science%20and%20popular,a%20horseshoe%20are%20close%20together https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horseshoe_theory#:~:text=In%....
    - chii 5y ago
      so it only happening 6 times over the 2.3 billion years is not a bad record. Human designed systems have barely over 5000-10000 years of history, and most only last a couple hundred.
DSMan195276 5y ago
> I believe the free market is like Darwinism for economic organisms: unintuitive and little understood by the regular folk, however working just fine nevertheless and able to solve and explain any issue without needing the intervention of an intelligent designer/regulator. I feel like that's a bit of a charitable description considering the whole monopoly problem (and various other regulations in place to make the system actually work). Perhaps we just disagree on what "working just fine" means though :)
- nickpp 5y ago
  Monopolies (including the so-called "natural monopolies") are not a problem for the free market, but rather opportunities - bounded only by human ingenuity, imagination and capacity to innovate. In reality most monopolies we encountered were actually created or sustained by governments, through their dear friends patents and regulations which raise the barrier of entry and compliance costs, create unintended second-order effects and generally dampen competition.
  - DarylZero 5y ago
    Markets are also created and sustained by governments.
    - nickpp 5y ago
      Nope. Markets require just a couple of free participants willing to exchange goods or services. No governmental involvement there.
      - DarylZero 5y ago
        "Markets are" <-- actual existence vs. "Markets require" <-- some kind of logical construction
  - DSMan195276 5y ago
    "Guy's you're just not doing it right" or "there would be more competition if we would just remove those pesky regulations on the meat packing industry". It's very convenient that the answer is always just "remove regulations" as though most of them weren't put in place to solve existing problems that otherwise weren't getting solved by the market itself. I'll give you a different suggestion - what you're saying may work fine on a small scale, but not on a scale where consumers can no longer realistically have any idea how something was produced. Consumers can't select against things they don't know about or don't understand.

by nickpp 5y ago

ClumsyPilot 5y ago

While you are admiring Darwinism, keep in mind that all-natural ecosystem collapse is a thing, and 6 all-natural mass extinction events had >90% of all living things disappear.

WalterBright 5y ago
> 6 all-natural mass extinction events Are you sure about that? Or have people just not discovered the cause yet? Pick one, let's explore it.
- ClumsyPilot 5y ago
  Sure, the Oxygen Catastrophe, 2.3 billion years ago. I do, wonder, given that all the extinctions happened before humans existed, what possible alternative to 'natural' could there be, aliens?
  - WalterBright 5y ago
    > possible alternatives Asteroids, vulcanism are the usual culprits. There also could be cosmic ray bursts from exploding stars. > the Oxygen Catastrophe There seem to be many hypotheses about that: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Oxidation_Event https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Oxidation_Event and it isn't clear to me there was a collapse, but a gradual replacement.
    - WalterBright 5y ago
      P.S. Evolution is not a stable system, and free markets aren't stable, either. Socialism promises stability, but history shows it's even less stable, as it is unresponsive to market changes.
    - ClumsyPilot 5y ago
      "Asteroid and vulcanism are the usual culprits" That is nature, thats my point - it is brutal and murderous. If you don't want to die from them you don't rely on Darwinism and if you don't want economic collapse and famine every time a new strain of flue evolves you dont wait for 'muh free market' to save you.
      - WalterBright 5y ago
        You might want to investigate the economic collapses caused by government run monetary systems. Like the Weimar Republic you mentioned - that collapse led to Nazism. Not a ringing endorsement for central banking, amirite? BTW, are you enjoying the 9% haircut we all got in the last year courtesy of central banking?
        ClumsyPilot 5y ago
        "Not a ringing endorsement for central banking, amirite?" Which type of spherical cow free-market economy should i compare it too? No matter what system i pick, from medieval gold based systems to modern floating currency, someone goes "ThaTs NoT Real Free MaRKet!" It's like communism, not real life system was ever the real deal.
        confidantlake 5y ago
        You can't, it is a religion.
        ClumsyPilot 5y ago
        I really think it is, amits ironic because they are ideologically oppose communists but act in the same way. Horseshoe effect in real life! https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horseshoe_theory#:~:text=In%20political%20science%20and%20popular,a%20horseshoe%20are%20close%20together https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horseshoe_theory#:~:text=In%....
  - chii 5y ago
    so it only happening 6 times over the 2.3 billion years is not a bad record. Human designed systems have barely over 5000-10000 years of history, and most only last a couple hundred.

DSMan195276 5y ago

> I believe the free market is like Darwinism for economic organisms: unintuitive and little understood by the regular folk, however working just fine nevertheless and able to solve and explain any issue without needing the intervention of an intelligent designer/regulator. I feel like that's a bit of a charitable description considering the whole monopoly problem (and various other regulations in place to make the system actually work). Perhaps we just disagree on what "working just fine" means though :)

nickpp 5y ago
Monopolies (including the so-called "natural monopolies") are not a problem for the free market, but rather opportunities - bounded only by human ingenuity, imagination and capacity to innovate. In reality most monopolies we encountered were actually created or sustained by governments, through their dear friends patents and regulations which raise the barrier of entry and compliance costs, create unintended second-order effects and generally dampen competition.
- DarylZero 5y ago
  Markets are also created and sustained by governments.
  - nickpp 5y ago
    Nope. Markets require just a couple of free participants willing to exchange goods or services. No governmental involvement there.
    - DarylZero 5y ago
      "Markets are" <-- actual existence vs. "Markets require" <-- some kind of logical construction
- DSMan195276 5y ago
  "Guy's you're just not doing it right" or "there would be more competition if we would just remove those pesky regulations on the meat packing industry". It's very convenient that the answer is always just "remove regulations" as though most of them weren't put in place to solve existing problems that otherwise weren't getting solved by the market itself. I'll give you a different suggestion - what you're saying may work fine on a small scale, but not on a scale where consumers can no longer realistically have any idea how something was produced. Consumers can't select against things they don't know about or don't understand.