6 ms·

I was doing some thinking on the whole "third place"[0] problem today, and reading this I wonder if it's possible we have it backwards. Maybe people don't go to

by easton 5y ago

I was doing some thinking on the whole "third place"[0] problem today, and reading this I wonder if it's possible we have it backwards. Maybe people don't go to church because they no longer have the time (or the need) for the third place, as opposed to people no longer having a third place because of not going to church (or a bar, bowling alley, whatever). Maybe it's a privilege and not a need as people thought about it pre-Internet, and since you can see people any time you want from home, you don't have the incentive to go see them live. 0: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_place https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_place

gonehome 5y ago
Remindes me a bit of E.M. Forster's weirdly prescient 1909 short story The Machine Stops: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Machine_Stops https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Machine_Stops "The story describes a world in which most of the human population has lost the ability to live on the surface of the Earth. Each individual now lives in isolation below ground in a standard room, with all bodily and spiritual needs met by the omnipotent, global Machine. Travel is permitted, but is unpopular and rarely necessary. Communication is made via a kind of instant messaging/video conferencing machine with which people conduct their only activity: the sharing of ideas and what passes for knowledge."
- jaytaylor 5y ago
  https://www.cs.ucdavis.edu/~koehl/Teaching/ECS188/PDF_files/Machine_stops.pdf https://www.cs.ucdavis.edu/~koehl/Teaching/ECS188/PDF_files/...
rnoorda 5y ago
I've been thinking along similar lines, and one thing I keep coming back to is the danger of making online spaces your "third place." Spending time on TikTok, Facebook, Instagram, even HN, can be really dangerous when it's a third place and not just a way to interact occasionally. I have also felt a decline in my "second place" (workplace) social connections since I've been working remotely for a long time. I get along with people I work with, but I don't go to lunch or talk at the water cooler, so it's not a social environment the way an office can be. Don't get me wrong, I love remote work, but for anyone already lacking social interaction, I can see that need for connection.
- sokoloff 5y ago
  Why do you think HN is a worse (more dangerous) third place than a local pub, bookstore, or Starbucks?
  - mensetmanusman 5y ago
    Likely because in essence everyone here could be gtp-4 for all we know. This community wouldn’t fill any gap related to human suffering that real humans do.
  - excalibur 5y ago
    > Third places are never snobby or pretentious, and are accepting of all types of individuals, from various different walks of life. According to Oldenburg's criteria HN doesn't really fit.
    - thewebcount 5y ago
      By that definition neither was the church I grew up going to. You were judged from the second you walked through the door until well after you left.
  - justtologin 5y ago
    Not the parent. I think it's the standard social media stuff - pseudo anonymity, lack of nuance or easy clarification, lack of private conversations meaning everything is exposed to the lowest common denominator. Not saying HN is particularly bad as social media goes, but there is a big difference between having a chat at a bar where you adapt to your conversation partners and have a mutually interesting discussion while being mostly diplomatic, vs posting something for posterity where everyone that passes by can give a hot take or "what about", "source please", "explain what you mean by"... Your comment is actually a (very benign) example - I don't mean offence, just saying that the gp put a comment out there and now it's available for anyone to come by and jump on, where the dynamic would be different in a pub convo
    - 5y ago
nicoburns 5y ago
I don't think so. We have an epidemic of loneliness. I think it's much more likely that people are turning away from churches because they are rejecting religion, and that the alternatives just aren't there.

by easton 5y ago

gonehome 5y ago

Remindes me a bit of E.M. Forster's weirdly prescient 1909 short story The Machine Stops: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Machine_Stops https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Machine_Stops "The story describes a world in which most of the human population has lost the ability to live on the surface of the Earth. Each individual now lives in isolation below ground in a standard room, with all bodily and spiritual needs met by the omnipotent, global Machine. Travel is permitted, but is unpopular and rarely necessary. Communication is made via a kind of instant messaging/video conferencing machine with which people conduct their only activity: the sharing of ideas and what passes for knowledge."

jaytaylor 5y ago
https://www.cs.ucdavis.edu/~koehl/Teaching/ECS188/PDF_files/Machine_stops.pdf https://www.cs.ucdavis.edu/~koehl/Teaching/ECS188/PDF_files/...

rnoorda 5y ago

I've been thinking along similar lines, and one thing I keep coming back to is the danger of making online spaces your "third place." Spending time on TikTok, Facebook, Instagram, even HN, can be really dangerous when it's a third place and not just a way to interact occasionally. I have also felt a decline in my "second place" (workplace) social connections since I've been working remotely for a long time. I get along with people I work with, but I don't go to lunch or talk at the water cooler, so it's not a social environment the way an office can be. Don't get me wrong, I love remote work, but for anyone already lacking social interaction, I can see that need for connection.

sokoloff 5y ago
Why do you think HN is a worse (more dangerous) third place than a local pub, bookstore, or Starbucks?
- mensetmanusman 5y ago
  Likely because in essence everyone here could be gtp-4 for all we know. This community wouldn’t fill any gap related to human suffering that real humans do.
- excalibur 5y ago
  > Third places are never snobby or pretentious, and are accepting of all types of individuals, from various different walks of life. According to Oldenburg's criteria HN doesn't really fit.
  - thewebcount 5y ago
    By that definition neither was the church I grew up going to. You were judged from the second you walked through the door until well after you left.
- justtologin 5y ago
  Not the parent. I think it's the standard social media stuff - pseudo anonymity, lack of nuance or easy clarification, lack of private conversations meaning everything is exposed to the lowest common denominator. Not saying HN is particularly bad as social media goes, but there is a big difference between having a chat at a bar where you adapt to your conversation partners and have a mutually interesting discussion while being mostly diplomatic, vs posting something for posterity where everyone that passes by can give a hot take or "what about", "source please", "explain what you mean by"... Your comment is actually a (very benign) example - I don't mean offence, just saying that the gp put a comment out there and now it's available for anyone to come by and jump on, where the dynamic would be different in a pub convo
  - 5y ago

nicoburns 5y ago

I don't think so. We have an epidemic of loneliness. I think it's much more likely that people are turning away from churches because they are rejecting religion, and that the alternatives just aren't there.