4 ms·

I'm not a Web3 shill, but this is so insanely disingenuous it's not even funny. First of all, the argument that web3 is the biggest ecological problem of our ti

by dvt 5y ago

I'm not a Web3 shill, but this is so insanely disingenuous it's not even funny. First of all, the argument that web3 is the biggest ecological problem of our time -- when essentially all of Asia is contributing 80% of ocean pollution, and the supply chain contributes to more than 50% of greenhouse gas emissions, is just straight-up delusional. The claim that Web3 is rife with hacks, when you have daily hacks of Web2 (are we just ignoring Log4j, which is a huge deal and happened 2 days ago), including egregious privacy leaks (Cambridge Analytica), and comical wrist-slaps (Equifax anyone?) is just silly. I could make the same argument about technology in general and it would be wrong (you'd still have snake-oil salesmen roaming the streets). Finally, the idea that rug pulls don't happen in other markets is also just such a jejune interpretation of markets. I take it author is not familiar with SPACs and IPOs? It's just clueless posturing. Look at what happened with Nikola just earlier this year. Is that not a rug pull?

artursapek 5y ago
Anyone making the "crypto is killing the environment" argument is basically just regurgitating a trope they read in the corporate media. Pretty obvious red flag.
- AlexandrB 5y ago
  Great. What's the counterargument? Just because it's a trope doesn't mean it's not true. PoW is insanely inefficient compared to traditional database technology, doesn't actually replace "the banking system" (so both have to run at the same time), and in practice only provides theoretical decentralization since most people invest in crypto through intermediaries.
  - artursapek 5y ago
    web3/Metamask apps like NFT marketplaces are generally used with a wallet (software or hardware+software) which the end user is custodian of; not a third party. Much of the crypto space is moving towards Proof of Stake, including Ethereum. These critics also fail to ever mention that.
acdha 5y ago
Speaking of disingenuous, since when is log4j “web 2.0”? > The claim that Web3 is rife with hacks, when you have daily hacks of Web2 (are we just ignoring Log4j, which is a huge deal and happened 2 days ago) That’s also worth thinking less shallowly about for a second reason: if a cryptocurrency service, wallet, etc. you used was hacked due to log4j, you’d lose everything without recourse. This is not true of the mature banking system, and it might be useful to consider how many people would consider that a requirement.
- sneak 5y ago
  "web 2.0" = centralized web application servers providing usually-json API backends for javascript clientside applications running in a browser. Usually written in Python, Ruby, Java, or PHP. Sometimes written in Perl or Go or Rust. Clicks are not usually full pageloads (that is, SPAs). Many (maybe even most?) of those web 2.0 applications are written in Java and those that are, almost all of them use log4j. (web1 was serverside rendering of html, sending down complete html pages for each user interaction.)
  - acdha 5y ago
    I’m quite familiar with web 1 & 2’s meaning having worked on both so while I’d want to fix that definition it’s really distracting from the main point: log4j has nothing to do with either, as evidenced by the many projects which didn’t even use Java. It’s just a library, and compiling into byte code for some blockchain VM wouldn’t make it a cryptocurrency library, either.
  - ahtihn 5y ago
    Web 2.0 predates SPAs and has basically nothing to do with that. Web 2.0 is basically websites with user generated content. See https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Web_2.0 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Web_2.0 and most other sources you find when googling "what is web 2.0" And by the way, a significant number of java backends don't use log4j2 as a logging backend (the vulnerable part).
- dvt 5y ago
  > Speaking of disingenuous, since when is log4j “web 2.0”? Let's assume Web 2.0 is 2008 to the present day. Every single big corp I worked at during that time was a Java shop (serving via Tomcat/Jetty), and log4j is ubiquitous in every Java shop. Minecraft (a gaming epitome of Web 2.0), basically blew up because of Log4j.
lordnacho 5y ago
>... Nikola just earlier this year. Is that not a rug pull? Guy is on $100M bail. It's known who he is. There's a fair chance of him getting done for fraud. Rug pulls are when you come back to check up on your investment and the restaurant is just an empty parking lot, and a tumbleweed rolls across. A skateboarding kid comes out to greet you as he explains some people came there a few months back and took some pictures, pretending they were opening soon.
beebeepka 5y ago
Mhmmm. Remind us again, which country us by far the biggest polluter per capita on the planet? It's not "Asia". I think it's the country you are from.
- carlosdp 5y ago
  The planet doesn't really care about "per capita" though, just total effect. By that logic, a country that has only 1M citizens but is highly industrious and has more pollutant side-effects per capita for that reason should get all the attention even if it's total contribution is less than 1%. Doesn't make sense to me if your goal is to actually stop climate change, as opposed to just hand wringing.
  - AlexandrB 5y ago
    Per-capita footprint absolutely does matter. Otherwise how can you compare countries with vastly different populations like Iceland and India? And on a per-capita basis the North American lifestyle produces way more carbon than the Southeast Asian one.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
paisawalla 5y ago
The argument from climate/eco concerns is the most insipid, bad faith argument of them all. It both misunderstands how electricity is generated and consumed, and how necessary POW is to any of this. I feel strongly that nobody can make a nuanced, rational, good faith case against crypto on this basis without also condemning a host of frivolities we take for granted (and make life worth living). But tbh, I feel that's probably the point.

by dvt 5y ago

artursapek 5y ago

Anyone making the "crypto is killing the environment" argument is basically just regurgitating a trope they read in the corporate media. Pretty obvious red flag.

AlexandrB 5y ago
Great. What's the counterargument? Just because it's a trope doesn't mean it's not true. PoW is insanely inefficient compared to traditional database technology, doesn't actually replace "the banking system" (so both have to run at the same time), and in practice only provides theoretical decentralization since most people invest in crypto through intermediaries.
- artursapek 5y ago
  web3/Metamask apps like NFT marketplaces are generally used with a wallet (software or hardware+software) which the end user is custodian of; not a third party. Much of the crypto space is moving towards Proof of Stake, including Ethereum. These critics also fail to ever mention that.

acdha 5y ago

Speaking of disingenuous, since when is log4j “web 2.0”? > The claim that Web3 is rife with hacks, when you have daily hacks of Web2 (are we just ignoring Log4j, which is a huge deal and happened 2 days ago) That’s also worth thinking less shallowly about for a second reason: if a cryptocurrency service, wallet, etc. you used was hacked due to log4j, you’d lose everything without recourse. This is not true of the mature banking system, and it might be useful to consider how many people would consider that a requirement.

sneak 5y ago
"web 2.0" = centralized web application servers providing usually-json API backends for javascript clientside applications running in a browser. Usually written in Python, Ruby, Java, or PHP. Sometimes written in Perl or Go or Rust. Clicks are not usually full pageloads (that is, SPAs). Many (maybe even most?) of those web 2.0 applications are written in Java and those that are, almost all of them use log4j. (web1 was serverside rendering of html, sending down complete html pages for each user interaction.)
- acdha 5y ago
  I’m quite familiar with web 1 & 2’s meaning having worked on both so while I’d want to fix that definition it’s really distracting from the main point: log4j has nothing to do with either, as evidenced by the many projects which didn’t even use Java. It’s just a library, and compiling into byte code for some blockchain VM wouldn’t make it a cryptocurrency library, either.
- ahtihn 5y ago
  Web 2.0 predates SPAs and has basically nothing to do with that. Web 2.0 is basically websites with user generated content. See https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Web_2.0 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Web_2.0 and most other sources you find when googling "what is web 2.0" And by the way, a significant number of java backends don't use log4j2 as a logging backend (the vulnerable part).
dvt 5y ago
> Speaking of disingenuous, since when is log4j “web 2.0”? Let's assume Web 2.0 is 2008 to the present day. Every single big corp I worked at during that time was a Java shop (serving via Tomcat/Jetty), and log4j is ubiquitous in every Java shop. Minecraft (a gaming epitome of Web 2.0), basically blew up because of Log4j.

lordnacho 5y ago

>... Nikola just earlier this year. Is that not a rug pull? Guy is on $100M bail. It's known who he is. There's a fair chance of him getting done for fraud. Rug pulls are when you come back to check up on your investment and the restaurant is just an empty parking lot, and a tumbleweed rolls across. A skateboarding kid comes out to greet you as he explains some people came there a few months back and took some pictures, pretending they were opening soon.

beebeepka 5y ago

Mhmmm. Remind us again, which country us by far the biggest polluter per capita on the planet? It's not "Asia". I think it's the country you are from.

carlosdp 5y ago
The planet doesn't really care about "per capita" though, just total effect. By that logic, a country that has only 1M citizens but is highly industrious and has more pollutant side-effects per capita for that reason should get all the attention even if it's total contribution is less than 1%. Doesn't make sense to me if your goal is to actually stop climate change, as opposed to just hand wringing.
- AlexandrB 5y ago
  Per-capita footprint absolutely does matter. Otherwise how can you compare countries with vastly different populations like Iceland and India? And on a per-capita basis the North American lifestyle produces way more carbon than the Southeast Asian one.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

paisawalla 5y ago

The argument from climate/eco concerns is the most insipid, bad faith argument of them all. It both misunderstands how electricity is generated and consumed, and how necessary POW is to any of this. I feel strongly that nobody can make a nuanced, rational, good faith case against crypto on this basis without also condemning a host of frivolities we take for granted (and make life worth living). But tbh, I feel that's probably the point.