6 ms·

Oh look, another article asking ordinary citizens to shoulder responsibility for something that is almost entirely perpetrated by corporations. Yawn.

jandrese 5y ago
Everybody, corporations and individuals, need to do their part to fight climate change. We are all living on the same planet. If corporations aren't doing their part they need to be called out, but that is no excuse for you to shirk your duty.
gruez 5y ago
Are corporations emitting carbon for fun, or are they doing it at the behest of "ordinary citizens"?
- postsantum 5y ago
  Behest of ordinary citizens is easily swayed by media, which are owned by corporations. Enjoy your nuclear hysteria while important people keep visiting Climate Change Conferences in their private jets
- user-the-name 5y ago
  They are doing it because it's cheap and legal. Nobody is asking corporations to do it. We are allowing them to get away with it. We need to stop allowing it.
- hatware 5y ago
  Neither. I believe they are doing it to make money. Which is perfectly alright. Isn't the government supposed to _evaluate_ and _regulate_ the market in order to account for the externalities created by X, Y, and Z corporations? If they are not doing this, what do we do? Cause we've been voting the same cronies in cycle after cycle, with the same result. What is the definition of insanity? Our reality.
  - pessimizer 5y ago
    X, Y, and Z corporations are the ones that finance those cronies. Good luck running against them without either being completely ignored or painted as an anti-semitic child molester by any media that could reach more than 100 voters.
  - CameronNemo 5y ago
    Maybe the fact that two of the largest coal exporting states have the smallest populations and largest proportional influences in the Senate has something to do why voting isn't working. The game is rigged.
    - gruez 5y ago
      >Maybe the fact that two of the largest coal exporting states have the smallest populations and largest proportional influences in the Senate Wyoming and Vermont are the largest coal exporting states? Based on https://www.statista.com/statistics/380664/leading-us-states-by-coal-exports/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/380664/leading-us-states..., it looks like the top 5 coal exporting states are ranked 39, 24, 5, 6, and 12 in terms of population.
      - CameronNemo 5y ago
        https://www.mining-technology.com/features/five-largest-coal-producing-states-us/ https://www.mining-technology.com/features/five-largest-coal... This has Wyoming and WV as the biggest producers. Could differ from exports, but in retrospect production is probably more important. Those states are quite small. Vermont is too. Yet they have 6 senators between them.
- camgunz 5y ago
  They actively corrupt democratic governments and disseminate misinformation in order to keep making money by destroying the planet. Exxon infamously supports cap and trade because they know it's politically non-viable [1]. Confident no consumer is asking them to do this. [1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5v1Yg6XejyE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5v1Yg6XejyE
- acuozzo 5y ago
  The issue is that, in many cases, corporations create the problems that their products solve. Stroads, for instance, only came about after a ton of corporate spending on propaganda and lobbying to increase demand for automobiles. If you contaminate the water supply of a city in order to create demand for your water purification product, then is the resulting consumer demand your fault or theirs?
  - gfxgirl 5y ago
    Most people I know want a house in the suburbs. Their own land. A place for pets, a garage for cars, no shared walls so they can watch tv loud or play things like rockband (old reference but clearly not something most people can play in an apartment). they like their suburban neighborhoods where they get to know their neighbors and their kids can play with other kids in their front yard, etc.... no need for evil corps for this lifestyle to be appealing to lots of people
rocgf 5y ago
I honestly never understood this argument. Corporations don't just emit greenhouse gases for the fun of it, like some sort of villain, they do it because they produce the stuff that we, the "ordinary citizens" buy like mad every Christmas or whenever we have $200 extra in our bank accounts. Corporations will do anything permitted by the law and that's no secret. That includes evading taxes, sub-living wages or pollution. Ordinary citizens allow this by buying the products of those corporations and by not voting for more green policies. To assign the blame solely on corporations and remove "ordinary citizens" from the equation is short-sighted at best.
- user-the-name 5y ago
  Well, look, you said it yourself: "will do anything permitted by the law" Exactly. So start changing the law. Blaming consumers will get us nowhere. Change the law. Enforce the law. Force corporations to act.
  - lotsofpulp 5y ago
    The only effective law would be a sufficient tax on fossil fuels to force reduction in consumption. But it will be heavily unpopular as it will reduce people’s quality of life in the short term, even for the rest of their life, plus globally, other populations would be happy to pick up the demand.
    - user-the-name 5y ago
      And?
      - lotsofpulp 5y ago
        I was not contradicting you, just expanding on my thoughts for what the relevant laws would need to be.
  - AnIdiotOnTheNet 5y ago
    Consumers are also the ones voting for the politicians who aren't changing the law. So again, it's on us. We need to actually want to change before we actually will.
mcv 5y ago
What do you mean: yawn? At the very least, you could vote for a government that lets those corporations pay for their pollution. One way or the other, you do have a responsibility here, because the way the system works right now, corporations only care about short-term profit, and right now that means they pollute. They need to feel the consequences of this pollution financially, or they'll never change. And it needs to happen soon too, because we've already squandered 30 year of doing nothing.
- usui 5y ago
  Just because the OP yawns at a trite post doesn’t mean he or she doesn’t care about the issues you mentioned. The only thing that isn’t cared about is deflection of responsibility.
wing-_-nuts 5y ago
I don't recall reading that. Could you post some quotes to back your claim?
908B64B197 5y ago
... And the countries that are enabling this pollution. It's interesting to look at the long term trends, especially when looking at some of the largest economies on the planet. Comparing the US[0] and China[1], the US has: - Decreasing per capita emissions in the US starting in 1973 (-27%) - A decrease in the countries emission starting in 2007 (-13%) Meanwhile for the same period China has had - a 7x increase per capita since 1973 (+532%) - 48% increase for its global emissions since 2007 If a country decides to impose a burden on itself by doing the right thing and going green (like the EU and US are doing) then China can just bring on more coal plants online to bring the price of their goods down and crush the competition. Nobody in the western world can compete with that. It's time we start holding governments accountable and impose tariffs and immigration quotas on misbehaving countries. [0] https://ourworldindata.org/co2/country/united-states https://ourworldindata.org/co2/country/united-states [1] https://ourworldindata.org/co2/country/china https://ourworldindata.org/co2/country/china

jandrese 5y ago

Everybody, corporations and individuals, need to do their part to fight climate change. We are all living on the same planet. If corporations aren't doing their part they need to be called out, but that is no excuse for you to shirk your duty.

gruez 5y ago

Are corporations emitting carbon for fun, or are they doing it at the behest of "ordinary citizens"?

postsantum 5y ago
Behest of ordinary citizens is easily swayed by media, which are owned by corporations. Enjoy your nuclear hysteria while important people keep visiting Climate Change Conferences in their private jets
user-the-name 5y ago
They are doing it because it's cheap and legal. Nobody is asking corporations to do it. We are allowing them to get away with it. We need to stop allowing it.
hatware 5y ago
Neither. I believe they are doing it to make money. Which is perfectly alright. Isn't the government supposed to _evaluate_ and _regulate_ the market in order to account for the externalities created by X, Y, and Z corporations? If they are not doing this, what do we do? Cause we've been voting the same cronies in cycle after cycle, with the same result. What is the definition of insanity? Our reality.
- pessimizer 5y ago
  X, Y, and Z corporations are the ones that finance those cronies. Good luck running against them without either being completely ignored or painted as an anti-semitic child molester by any media that could reach more than 100 voters.
- CameronNemo 5y ago
  Maybe the fact that two of the largest coal exporting states have the smallest populations and largest proportional influences in the Senate has something to do why voting isn't working. The game is rigged.
  - gruez 5y ago
    >Maybe the fact that two of the largest coal exporting states have the smallest populations and largest proportional influences in the Senate Wyoming and Vermont are the largest coal exporting states? Based on https://www.statista.com/statistics/380664/leading-us-states-by-coal-exports/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/380664/leading-us-states..., it looks like the top 5 coal exporting states are ranked 39, 24, 5, 6, and 12 in terms of population.
    - CameronNemo 5y ago
      https://www.mining-technology.com/features/five-largest-coal-producing-states-us/ https://www.mining-technology.com/features/five-largest-coal... This has Wyoming and WV as the biggest producers. Could differ from exports, but in retrospect production is probably more important. Those states are quite small. Vermont is too. Yet they have 6 senators between them.
camgunz 5y ago
They actively corrupt democratic governments and disseminate misinformation in order to keep making money by destroying the planet. Exxon infamously supports cap and trade because they know it's politically non-viable [1]. Confident no consumer is asking them to do this. [1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5v1Yg6XejyE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5v1Yg6XejyE
acuozzo 5y ago
The issue is that, in many cases, corporations create the problems that their products solve. Stroads, for instance, only came about after a ton of corporate spending on propaganda and lobbying to increase demand for automobiles. If you contaminate the water supply of a city in order to create demand for your water purification product, then is the resulting consumer demand your fault or theirs?
- gfxgirl 5y ago
  Most people I know want a house in the suburbs. Their own land. A place for pets, a garage for cars, no shared walls so they can watch tv loud or play things like rockband (old reference but clearly not something most people can play in an apartment). they like their suburban neighborhoods where they get to know their neighbors and their kids can play with other kids in their front yard, etc.... no need for evil corps for this lifestyle to be appealing to lots of people

rocgf 5y ago

I honestly never understood this argument. Corporations don't just emit greenhouse gases for the fun of it, like some sort of villain, they do it because they produce the stuff that we, the "ordinary citizens" buy like mad every Christmas or whenever we have $200 extra in our bank accounts. Corporations will do anything permitted by the law and that's no secret. That includes evading taxes, sub-living wages or pollution. Ordinary citizens allow this by buying the products of those corporations and by not voting for more green policies. To assign the blame solely on corporations and remove "ordinary citizens" from the equation is short-sighted at best.

user-the-name 5y ago
Well, look, you said it yourself: "will do anything permitted by the law" Exactly. So start changing the law. Blaming consumers will get us nowhere. Change the law. Enforce the law. Force corporations to act.
- lotsofpulp 5y ago
  The only effective law would be a sufficient tax on fossil fuels to force reduction in consumption. But it will be heavily unpopular as it will reduce people’s quality of life in the short term, even for the rest of their life, plus globally, other populations would be happy to pick up the demand.
  - user-the-name 5y ago
    And?
    - lotsofpulp 5y ago
      I was not contradicting you, just expanding on my thoughts for what the relevant laws would need to be.
- AnIdiotOnTheNet 5y ago
  Consumers are also the ones voting for the politicians who aren't changing the law. So again, it's on us. We need to actually want to change before we actually will.

mcv 5y ago

What do you mean: yawn? At the very least, you could vote for a government that lets those corporations pay for their pollution. One way or the other, you do have a responsibility here, because the way the system works right now, corporations only care about short-term profit, and right now that means they pollute. They need to feel the consequences of this pollution financially, or they'll never change. And it needs to happen soon too, because we've already squandered 30 year of doing nothing.

usui 5y ago
Just because the OP yawns at a trite post doesn’t mean he or she doesn’t care about the issues you mentioned. The only thing that isn’t cared about is deflection of responsibility.

wing-_-nuts 5y ago

I don't recall reading that. Could you post some quotes to back your claim?

908B64B197 5y ago

... And the countries that are enabling this pollution. It's interesting to look at the long term trends, especially when looking at some of the largest economies on the planet. Comparing the US[0] and China[1], the US has: - Decreasing per capita emissions in the US starting in 1973 (-27%) - A decrease in the countries emission starting in 2007 (-13%) Meanwhile for the same period China has had - a 7x increase per capita since 1973 (+532%) - 48% increase for its global emissions since 2007 If a country decides to impose a burden on itself by doing the right thing and going green (like the EU and US are doing) then China can just bring on more coal plants online to bring the price of their goods down and crush the competition. Nobody in the western world can compete with that. It's time we start holding governments accountable and impose tariffs and immigration quotas on misbehaving countries. [0] https://ourworldindata.org/co2/country/united-states https://ourworldindata.org/co2/country/united-states [1] https://ourworldindata.org/co2/country/china https://ourworldindata.org/co2/country/china