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It's an interesting paper, but unfortunately it misses the point. Polar dissimilar political beliefs are not the problem. Many countries have this, and even ha

It's an interesting paper, but unfortunately it misses the point. Polar dissimilar political beliefs are not the problem. Many countries have this, and even have lively political discussions that remain civil, rallies that remain civil, and elections that remain civil. The actual problem is psychological, specifically dealing with identity beliefs. Once a person takes on a belief as part of their identity, any attack upon that belief becomes an attack upon the person, at which point they will retaliate for the offence or dig in to defend. This is most commonly observed in the "Backfire Effect". Identity beliefs are pervasive in the USA, so much so that I doubt many are aware of it (the authors of this paper certainly aren't). For example, in America you say "I'm a Republican." but in Germany you say "I support the CDU." Notice the difference? One is an identity, the other is an action. Guess in which of these countries you can have polite (even if heated) dinner conversations about politics! Identity beliefs aren't limited to politics, either. They can be religious, ethnic, or even ideological (e.g. incels, preppers, anti-vaxers, jihadists, etc).

nosianu 5y ago
> Guess in which of these countries you can have polite (even if heated) dinner conversations about politics! Yes, but that was before vaccination scepticism and AfD (new-ish right wing party that made waves the last few years and now sits in the Bundestag too). Now we (Germany) see similar vitriol. We even had murder (some guy murdered the cashier at a petrol station because they were outraged he asked to wear a mask) and as recent as this week headlines about violent anti-vaccination protests. We also read about splits in families similar to what we were used to reading about from the US. Looks like we are catching up.... /s https://www.thelocal.de/20211207/germanys-new-government-condemns-aggressive-anti-vax-movement/ https://www.thelocal.de/20211207/germanys-new-government-con... https://www.ft.com/content/f04ac67b-92e4-4bab-8c23-817cc0483df5 https://www.ft.com/content/f04ac67b-92e4-4bab-8c23-817cc0483... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternative_for_Germany https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternative_for_Germany (AfD party)
- inglor_cz 5y ago
  In Czechia and Poland, the same vitriol seems to be catching up. Well, in case of Poland, it might actually already be on the US level. At least we are multiparty countries, so switching allegiance is not as hard as in the US/UK system. But social networks are really good in their role of Shiri's scissor [0]. We shouldn't feel smug; as you say, we may just be slightly behind in the trend whose shockwave travels through the U.S. first. (A darkly funny observation: polarization and obesity seem to develop in a similar fashion. Maybe a diet of unhealthy shit and a diet of horrible info content go hand in hand, hacking the same circuits in our brains.) [0] https://slatestarcodex.com/2018/10/30/sort-by-controversial/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2018/10/30/sort-by-controversial/
ptsneves 5y ago
Not dismissing your point, but you may be hitting at words that have ambiguity when translated. I am not a german speaker but would it be grammatically correct to say "Ich bin CDUer"? From my elementary school german it does not feel right. On the other hand you can perfectly say "Ich bin christdemokrat" and here you are back to the American case with political support equaling identity. An equivalently polarized country, Poland, does not have PiS supporters saying they are "Jestem PISowcy"(I am a Piser) or "Jestem POsy")(I am a POer). According you our theory I would expect Polish to identify themselves as written above. In Portuguese, party names are also mostly abbreviations, and people will just say "sou do PS"(i am from PS/I am a PSer) for actual militants as well as supporters. This would hint at identity and support being the same. As a Portuguese i can tell you Portugal is outstandingly homogeneous and not polarized. This would falsify your theory as well as you would expect conflating support with identity would reflect polarization.
- rmbyrro 5y ago
  In Brazil people say "I'm Petista" and they're extremely polarized, very similar to how the US looks like. It's amazing that both sides' (right and left) ideas, at this point, lead to the same results in the long run, but they vehemently fight eachother like they were extreme opposites. Just because the short term presentation of the ideas is different.
- stnikolauswagne 5y ago
  I dont think anyone would ever say „Ich bin christemokrat“, a much more common saying (at least in the area where I live or the area I grew up) would be „Ich bin CDU-Wähler“/I am a CDU-Voter. This is coincidentally how my parents would describe their political leanings (SPD).
  - Firadeoclus 5y ago
    Certainly some people do say "Ich bin Christdemokrat", but that would usually be active party members, not just voters.
- marax27 5y ago
johnisgood 5y ago
For anyone interested, there is a book named "Identity Theory" from Peter J. Burke and Jan E. Stets.
RandomLensman 5y ago
That still does not explain why such identity beliefs appear to be spreading. My own hypothesis is that most things are now too complex for most people, i.e., how things work is largely "magic". This then might allow people to actually belief a lot more things as a lot of how the real world works is already untethered from reality for them.
- fallingknife 5y ago
  That has been the case since the industrial revolution, though. My theory is that political affiliation has taken the place of religion. Particularly on the left, but you can see a lot of it happening on the right now too since Christianity has declined in influence in the Republican party.
  - bellyfullofbac 5y ago
    As a leftie, but who can't relate to the many demands they now have (e.g. cancel culture), did Christianity influence the GOP? Or is it more the GOP saying "We are Christians" and what "Christianity" means to them is whatever they say it is?
    - fallingknife 5y ago
      I think it used to be the former, and is now more like the latter. And I think that as Christianity, independent of the GOP, continues to be less of a political force, you will see a brand of Republican religion without reference to Christianity. I think the beginnings of this can be seen in the purging of Liz Cheney, who, until very recently, was a canonical Republican. Now it is basically heretical in the Republican party to go against Trump. Also Trump is the first Republican presidential candidate that I can remember who didn't make a show out of his Christian faith, and didn't seem to be hurt by it.
      - AnimalMuppet 5y ago
        And Trump is a perfect demonstration of a political party having "religious zeal" unanchored to a religion. He's close to a God figure to some people. Those people and Christians really need to be in separate political parties.
locallost 5y ago
I agree with you 100% on the "backfire effect", and I think it's not really difficult to understand the mechanism behind it. But I don't think the US is really much different in that regard than anyone else, the differences there are maybe cultural at best, but in any case superficial. E.g. when I was looking at a flat in Germany, a landlord told me he subscribes to many newspapers, including the Süddeutsche Zeitung, but only to "monitor the left". That person identifies clearly with the right, and it doesn't matter how he phrases it.
- Lhiw 5y ago
  They don't clearly identify with the right though, that's the point. They might always vote that way but they're not spreading their identity around and you attacked Ng who they vote for isn't an attack on their tribe. And also one anecdote is hardly evidence. In my country I'm not a green or a Labor or a national. I vote green, I vote Labor, or I vote national. That is entirely different from saying "I'm a Greenie" or "I'm a conservative". Votes can change next year, identities can't.
dosmarder 5y ago
I agree with you but I think you are a little harsh regarding the conclusions which are drawn by the authors of the paper. There are actually two types of polarisation: ideological and affective. The paper, as far as I understood it (and you seem to agree), mainly concerns itself with ideological polarisation (i.e. polarisation on policy issues). Affective polarisation on the other hand describes animosity against a certain group because members of that group are members of that group (= "identity"). The authors of the paper clearly state how to incorporate affective polarisation in their model and I am very interested whether someone actually takes up that challenge and what the outcome is.
notadev 5y ago
Ah yes, the identity politics caused by people who are Republicans is the problem. Not at all the people trying to push unlimited genders, actively destroying our common language, or advocating for a person’s “live experiences” over actual reality.
- gruez 5y ago
  >Ah yes, the identity politics caused by people who are Republicans is the problem you're reading too much into it. from my reading of it, "republican" was only given as an example, not as the cause.
datenarsch 5y ago
Say "I support the AfD." (which is a bit like the German equivalent of saying "I support Trump") in Germany though and you are villified beyond belief and declared an Unperson, so while I may agree with your point in general, Germany certainly isn't a great example to support it.
- ripsawridge 5y ago
  Where I live, people pulled down AfD signs or defaced them. The unpersoning is not helpful. The ideas won't go away, and the people who think the AfD raises good questions will only feel persecuted (because they are). The worst part is that the ones who hate the AfD don't know why they do and are unable to counter their arguments.
  - pjc50 5y ago
    I see everyone's forgotten the reason the far right are banned in Germany. Remember, Hitler won a democratic election, and (by implication) the popular debate.
    - pandaman 5y ago
      I don't remember any elections Hitler has won, neither does Wikipedia. What did you have in mind?
      - JasonFruit 5y ago
        He was elected Chancellor in 1933.
        pandaman 5y ago
        He was not. Hitler was appointed Chancellor by the president Hindenburg, it is not some obscure fact and can be googled in 5 seconds. I am confused why people keep insisting on such an obvious lie to be honest. Especially in this topic: Weimar Republic experienced the same degree of polarization and the breakdown of political process as the US is experiencing now. Instead of trying to make a new history it's worth reflecting on what is the next step after the political parties decide that their opposition is not worth any argument and needs to be eliminated.
Bayart 5y ago
> For example, in America you say "I'm a Republican." but in Germany you say "I support the CDU." Notice the difference? One is an identity, the other is an action. Guess in which of these countries you can have polite (even if heated) dinner conversations about politics! I doubt that element of linguistics has any real importance. In Romance languages you'd say « I'm a left/right winger », « I'm a socialist » etc. and the social culture is very much less radicalized than in the US in that respect. Politics was a normal subject of conversation at the family table when I was a kid, and it's a normal one at the bar as an adult. If anything the inability to be able to talk about politics is taken as a sign of immaturity or poor education. This being said, I do think your original point about identity stands and touches upon the core of the issue.
kwantam 5y ago
I was reading about this just yesterday, and was intrigued to learn that the backfire effect may not be real and/or may be very weak. Here's one meta-study: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7462781/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7462781/ As I understand it (I am far from deeply knowledgeable about the literature! I'm just reading a book on this right now), Porter and Wood's 2017 study was one of the first that called into question the strength or existence of the backfire effect: Wood and Porter. "The elusive backfire effect: mass attitudes' steadfast factual adherence." Political Behavior, Jan 6 2018. https://dx.doi.org/10.2139/ssrn.2819073 https://dx.doi.org/10.2139/ssrn.2819073
hypertexthero 5y ago
> When you call yourself an Indian or a Muslim or a Christian or a European, or anything else, you are being violent. Do you see why it is violent? Because you are separating yourself from the rest of mankind. When you separate yourself by belief, by nationality, by tradition, it breeds violence. So a man who is seeking to understand violence does not belong to any country, to any religion, to any political party or partial system; he is concerned with the total understanding of mankind. —Jiddu Krishnamurti, Freedom From the Known, Chapter 6.
- ohCh6zos 5y ago
  I never thought I would be pro-violence, but if separation from the undifferentiated is violent, then violence is a good thing.
grover35 5y ago
I'm American and I can't help but think many of you just lack social skills. It's very convenient to think that everyone's hyper-sensitive and there's nothing you could do to change that, but usually people are pretty receptive to just about anything as long as you respect them. Avoid leading/gotcha questions, don't smirk, appear to genuinely listen and seek to understand the other person, resist the urge to tool on them if it's shown they're lacking basic knowledge, try to find common ground. I'm relatively conservative and I've never had a problem.
- Mezzie 5y ago
  It's both. I work in political communications/as a civics educator. I also grew up in a purple state in the 90s with a half liberal family and a half conservative one. The media landscape is completely different now. When I was growing up, my dad and I would do things like listen to Limbaugh and then discuss what points we agreed with + how stuff was covered online (he read the Drudge Report and other conservative online news and I read the opposite). One difference is that back then if I listened, I could get a genuine idea of what the other side wanted: Watching a liberal outlet would tell me, at least broadly, what conservatives wanted. (Fewer taxes, more religion, greater national security, etc.) Likewise for a conservative outlet re: liberals (Gay marriage, no war, etc.) Now? The media is just constantly spouting things that are completely batshit.
  - pstuart 5y ago
    > The media landscape is completely different now Not entirely. Right-wing talk radio has been fanning the flames of hatred towards "liberals" (e.g., all "others") for decades. It's taken root and flourished. https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/17/us/politics/limbaugh-death.html https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/17/us/politics/limbaugh-deat...
    - Mezzie 5y ago
      I remember. They were the earliest ones acting like that, but now everybody is. The right wing talking heads used to be a novelty; even when people listened to them like my dad + other conservative relatives, there wasn't a media ECOSYSTEM built around filter bubbling those opinions. The idea of somebody being informed with only what they knew from Limbaugh would have been absurd. You're right that it's been building for a long time; in hindsight we can identify key points (like the development of AM talk radio, the repeal of the Fairness Doctrine, the introduction of CNN/the 24 hour news cycle, digital media's embrace of the advertising funding model), but it's a trend. Both sides are doing it now because it pays.
blablabla123 5y ago
Not sure about that, I've been member of the German Green youth organization and at least when I was younger identified as Green. During that time I had a lot of vivid discussions with people from far left over neo-liberal to right conservative. The discussions were actually often heated but without exception respectful. Nowadays I rather observe something different which leaves a rather chilling sensation. Discussions don't happen or happen just passive-aggressively. People hide their political beliefs and best you get an indication from cynical remarks that often become personal. It's not fun to discuss politics anymore and I usually rather prefer not to. > e.g. incels, preppers, anti-vaxers, jihadists, etc If you take the argument to the extreme, hot heads are not the people who run amok. But rather people who never speak up outside of their peers, hide anonymously and are not properly organized with open meetings, regular sessions and all that...
zksmk 5y ago
I'm surprised nobody's mentioned yet a key (admittedly not only) part in making the US so polarized: first past the post voting system which inevitably leads to a two party system. Good luck having nuance in that system. It literally pits people against each other in two umbrella teams. The internet's echo chamber mechanic has only amplified this. People need to challenge their own beliefs more often. You vote Democrat? Whatever. Who do you vote for in the primaries? Nobody cares... they should. It might open the eyes to the foundations of disagreement not being dehumanizing.
- everybodyknows 5y ago
  > Who do you vote for in the primaries? Nobody cares... they should. This is a mechanism that in the past limited polarization at the final election. Now, there's ideological policing-by-harassment within both parties.
- supreme_loquat 5y ago
  I did actually touch on it briefly in [1] but it was not my only focus so perhaps you missed it. But I fully agree our voting system is one of the primary reasons for our polarization (social media is probably another but that's mainly an instinctual hypothesis). Unfortunately the alternative with the most support currently is ranked choice/IRV which does not really solve polarization (perhaps it might help it due to external societal factors, but in a mathematical vacuum I believe IRV is just as polarizing as first past the post). As far as single winner methods go, approval and STAR are gaining momentum and they do address polarization, so if one of these catches on I expect it to help slowly improve our current situation. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29550838 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29550838
  - zksmk 5y ago
    Yup, I've missed it somehow. I'm also a fan of approval and particularly star voting compared to IRV. It's good they're gaining ground.
specialist 5y ago
Yes and: Ezra Klein provides a lot of context in the book Why We Are Polarized. It was long argued that partisanship (Dem v GOP) should become polarized, so that voters knew what they were getting. (Careful what you wish for.) Sorting proceeded polarization, then became self reinforcing. To your point about identity, somehow sorting and polarization led to a stacking of our identities, creating super identities. So that any given belief becomes strongly associated with many others. Like a NASCAR fan is more likely a GOP voter. This is somehow like homophily and schismogenesis. Klein concludes by punting on how to unwind polarization. Instead, he advocates majoritarian rule by ending the vetocracy. So then our polarized parties are better held accountable. -- This paper's Attraction-Repulsion Model is worth considering. I really like their use of dynamic simulations. Coolness. Alas, I currently have no clue if ARM has any predictive power (real world use cases). To noob me, sorting and polarization -- tribes and wedge issues -- kinda look similar to k-means clustering and bee colony optimization. ARM isn't so different. I've been reading about voter behaviour modeling. Starting with William McPhee's work. Again, I have no idea if what they're actually doing is any better than phrenology. Having worked on campaigns, I actually know the mechanics of polling, profiling, GOTV. But the work of orgs like Data for Progress, fivethirtyeight, and our local party's quants has always struck me as black magic. (Or complete bullshit. I still haven't decided.)
AnimalMuppet 5y ago
I think it might be stronger than just "identity". Say I am a Republican, and you are a Democrat. That's still OK. We might not be able to have a conversation about politics, but we don't have to be at open warfare with each other. We can still coexist, we just cant talk about politics. But now comes an issue like, say, abortion. You feel like you have to have a country where abortion is freely available, and I feel like I have to have a country where fetuses are safe from being aborted. Now we're at open war with each other. We can no longer coexist. So I think it's a step past identity. It's this idea/feeling that one must have some political result. In politics, sometimes you lose. In fact, in a two-party system, about half the time you lose. People no longer consider that acceptable. That makes it really hard to have a functioning political system.
- jfengel 5y ago
  Most people are willing to draw compromises, even on abortion. Most people who favor the right to an abortion will accept a line somewhere; many are content to accept the trimester system. Most people who wish to ban it still allow exceptions, such as rape, even though that seems inconsistent with it being really about murder. It's an issue that easily admits being amplified by tribalism, but it doesn't have to be. We don't have to be at war over it. There exist compromises that aren't internally consistent but satisfy the moral intuitions of a large majority of the country. Instead, we're at war -- not because of the issue itself, but because the issue is presented as one where we have to be at war about. They're not looking for a compromise, even among their partisans who would accept one. They're looking for a war, because that war is used to keep their opponents out of office on all issues. It's an effective strategy for winning. Compromise doesn't make you run out to the polls. It doesn't matter how many parties there are. The winner is the one with the most votes. It's easiest to get the most votes when you believe that you are the only ones who are morally righteous, and everybody else is guilty of the one crime that every single person thinks is wrong all the time -- murder. So I believe that it's not stronger than "identity". Identity is how you win elections. Abortion happens to be a great issue for sharply defining identity, but if it weren't that, it would be something else. And along with it comes every other issue that you've managed to agree with your partisans on: you win every argument for free.
dpeck 5y ago
| For example, in America you say "I'm a Republican." or “I’m a Democrat.” I’ve lived in the US all my life, and I feel like I must have missed the day at school that they trained everyone to identify this way. It has always been completely bonkers to me to take on identity defined by a political corporation subject to the whims of the populace (at best) and monied/powered interests (at worst). There are probably vast tomes being written by psychologists and sociologists about how it’s an outgrowth of our lack of community and need for belonging, but at the end of the day I find it all rather sad in the now.
Rury 5y ago
I find the paper a bit ironic, but I think the problem isn't identity beliefs per say, the problem is more innate than that. And the innate problem is merely a conflict in individual wills as Thomas Hobbes argues in his state of nature. Or put more simply, politics is entirely just a conflict in personal wants, and the problem is that other people don't always share the same wants as you do. To demonstrate Hobbes point: imagine living on a desert island, alone by yourself. You can do whatever you desire, as there is no one to stop you from doing it. No law, no opposition whatsoever. If you want to burn everything on the island, no one to stop you! There is no politics to be had! Now, imagine you're on an island, and suddenly there's another person on that island. And all that's on the island is a stack of resources, just enough to either build a boat to safely transport one person off the island, or enough to build a hut to shelter one person so they can live on the island. You want to build a boat to get off the island, however the other person wants to use the resources to build a hut to live on the island. Notice what you want and what the other person wants, is at conflict with another! How do you resolve this conflict in wills? If you compromise, and share the resources, there won't be enough for either of you to get the outcome you want. Additionally, who is righteous to say whichever outcome happens is just/fair? Is it what you both agree on? Well that's both what you will isn't it? Anyhow, being against "anything that undermines democratic norms" is a will of itself. So is the desire to "prevent extreme polarization...", which is really just a roundabout way of saying "Preventing the opposition from doing what it is I want."

nosianu 5y ago

> Guess in which of these countries you can have polite (even if heated) dinner conversations about politics! Yes, but that was before vaccination scepticism and AfD (new-ish right wing party that made waves the last few years and now sits in the Bundestag too). Now we (Germany) see similar vitriol. We even had murder (some guy murdered the cashier at a petrol station because they were outraged he asked to wear a mask) and as recent as this week headlines about violent anti-vaccination protests. We also read about splits in families similar to what we were used to reading about from the US. Looks like we are catching up.... /s https://www.thelocal.de/20211207/germanys-new-government-condemns-aggressive-anti-vax-movement/ https://www.thelocal.de/20211207/germanys-new-government-con... https://www.ft.com/content/f04ac67b-92e4-4bab-8c23-817cc0483df5 https://www.ft.com/content/f04ac67b-92e4-4bab-8c23-817cc0483... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternative_for_Germany https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternative_for_Germany (AfD party)

inglor_cz 5y ago
In Czechia and Poland, the same vitriol seems to be catching up. Well, in case of Poland, it might actually already be on the US level. At least we are multiparty countries, so switching allegiance is not as hard as in the US/UK system. But social networks are really good in their role of Shiri's scissor [0]. We shouldn't feel smug; as you say, we may just be slightly behind in the trend whose shockwave travels through the U.S. first. (A darkly funny observation: polarization and obesity seem to develop in a similar fashion. Maybe a diet of unhealthy shit and a diet of horrible info content go hand in hand, hacking the same circuits in our brains.) [0] https://slatestarcodex.com/2018/10/30/sort-by-controversial/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2018/10/30/sort-by-controversial/

ptsneves 5y ago

Not dismissing your point, but you may be hitting at words that have ambiguity when translated. I am not a german speaker but would it be grammatically correct to say "Ich bin CDUer"? From my elementary school german it does not feel right. On the other hand you can perfectly say "Ich bin christdemokrat" and here you are back to the American case with political support equaling identity. An equivalently polarized country, Poland, does not have PiS supporters saying they are "Jestem PISowcy"(I am a Piser) or "Jestem POsy")(I am a POer). According you our theory I would expect Polish to identify themselves as written above. In Portuguese, party names are also mostly abbreviations, and people will just say "sou do PS"(i am from PS/I am a PSer) for actual militants as well as supporters. This would hint at identity and support being the same. As a Portuguese i can tell you Portugal is outstandingly homogeneous and not polarized. This would falsify your theory as well as you would expect conflating support with identity would reflect polarization.

rmbyrro 5y ago
In Brazil people say "I'm Petista" and they're extremely polarized, very similar to how the US looks like. It's amazing that both sides' (right and left) ideas, at this point, lead to the same results in the long run, but they vehemently fight eachother like they were extreme opposites. Just because the short term presentation of the ideas is different.
stnikolauswagne 5y ago
I dont think anyone would ever say „Ich bin christemokrat“, a much more common saying (at least in the area where I live or the area I grew up) would be „Ich bin CDU-Wähler“/I am a CDU-Voter. This is coincidentally how my parents would describe their political leanings (SPD).
- Firadeoclus 5y ago
  Certainly some people do say "Ich bin Christdemokrat", but that would usually be active party members, not just voters.
marax27 5y ago

johnisgood 5y ago

For anyone interested, there is a book named "Identity Theory" from Peter J. Burke and Jan E. Stets.

RandomLensman 5y ago

That still does not explain why such identity beliefs appear to be spreading. My own hypothesis is that most things are now too complex for most people, i.e., how things work is largely "magic". This then might allow people to actually belief a lot more things as a lot of how the real world works is already untethered from reality for them.

fallingknife 5y ago
That has been the case since the industrial revolution, though. My theory is that political affiliation has taken the place of religion. Particularly on the left, but you can see a lot of it happening on the right now too since Christianity has declined in influence in the Republican party.
- bellyfullofbac 5y ago
  As a leftie, but who can't relate to the many demands they now have (e.g. cancel culture), did Christianity influence the GOP? Or is it more the GOP saying "We are Christians" and what "Christianity" means to them is whatever they say it is?
  - fallingknife 5y ago
    I think it used to be the former, and is now more like the latter. And I think that as Christianity, independent of the GOP, continues to be less of a political force, you will see a brand of Republican religion without reference to Christianity. I think the beginnings of this can be seen in the purging of Liz Cheney, who, until very recently, was a canonical Republican. Now it is basically heretical in the Republican party to go against Trump. Also Trump is the first Republican presidential candidate that I can remember who didn't make a show out of his Christian faith, and didn't seem to be hurt by it.
    - AnimalMuppet 5y ago
      And Trump is a perfect demonstration of a political party having "religious zeal" unanchored to a religion. He's close to a God figure to some people. Those people and Christians really need to be in separate political parties.

locallost 5y ago

I agree with you 100% on the "backfire effect", and I think it's not really difficult to understand the mechanism behind it. But I don't think the US is really much different in that regard than anyone else, the differences there are maybe cultural at best, but in any case superficial. E.g. when I was looking at a flat in Germany, a landlord told me he subscribes to many newspapers, including the Süddeutsche Zeitung, but only to "monitor the left". That person identifies clearly with the right, and it doesn't matter how he phrases it.

Lhiw 5y ago
They don't clearly identify with the right though, that's the point. They might always vote that way but they're not spreading their identity around and you attacked Ng who they vote for isn't an attack on their tribe. And also one anecdote is hardly evidence. In my country I'm not a green or a Labor or a national. I vote green, I vote Labor, or I vote national. That is entirely different from saying "I'm a Greenie" or "I'm a conservative". Votes can change next year, identities can't.

dosmarder 5y ago

I agree with you but I think you are a little harsh regarding the conclusions which are drawn by the authors of the paper. There are actually two types of polarisation: ideological and affective. The paper, as far as I understood it (and you seem to agree), mainly concerns itself with ideological polarisation (i.e. polarisation on policy issues). Affective polarisation on the other hand describes animosity against a certain group because members of that group are members of that group (= "identity"). The authors of the paper clearly state how to incorporate affective polarisation in their model and I am very interested whether someone actually takes up that challenge and what the outcome is.

notadev 5y ago

Ah yes, the identity politics caused by people who are Republicans is the problem. Not at all the people trying to push unlimited genders, actively destroying our common language, or advocating for a person’s “live experiences” over actual reality.

gruez 5y ago
>Ah yes, the identity politics caused by people who are Republicans is the problem you're reading too much into it. from my reading of it, "republican" was only given as an example, not as the cause.

datenarsch 5y ago

Say "I support the AfD." (which is a bit like the German equivalent of saying "I support Trump") in Germany though and you are villified beyond belief and declared an Unperson, so while I may agree with your point in general, Germany certainly isn't a great example to support it.

ripsawridge 5y ago
Where I live, people pulled down AfD signs or defaced them. The unpersoning is not helpful. The ideas won't go away, and the people who think the AfD raises good questions will only feel persecuted (because they are). The worst part is that the ones who hate the AfD don't know why they do and are unable to counter their arguments.
- pjc50 5y ago
  I see everyone's forgotten the reason the far right are banned in Germany. Remember, Hitler won a democratic election, and (by implication) the popular debate.
  - pandaman 5y ago
    I don't remember any elections Hitler has won, neither does Wikipedia. What did you have in mind?
    - JasonFruit 5y ago
      He was elected Chancellor in 1933.
      - pandaman 5y ago
        He was not. Hitler was appointed Chancellor by the president Hindenburg, it is not some obscure fact and can be googled in 5 seconds. I am confused why people keep insisting on such an obvious lie to be honest. Especially in this topic: Weimar Republic experienced the same degree of polarization and the breakdown of political process as the US is experiencing now. Instead of trying to make a new history it's worth reflecting on what is the next step after the political parties decide that their opposition is not worth any argument and needs to be eliminated.

Bayart 5y ago

> For example, in America you say "I'm a Republican." but in Germany you say "I support the CDU." Notice the difference? One is an identity, the other is an action. Guess in which of these countries you can have polite (even if heated) dinner conversations about politics! I doubt that element of linguistics has any real importance. In Romance languages you'd say « I'm a left/right winger », « I'm a socialist » etc. and the social culture is very much less radicalized than in the US in that respect. Politics was a normal subject of conversation at the family table when I was a kid, and it's a normal one at the bar as an adult. If anything the inability to be able to talk about politics is taken as a sign of immaturity or poor education. This being said, I do think your original point about identity stands and touches upon the core of the issue.

kwantam 5y ago

I was reading about this just yesterday, and was intrigued to learn that the backfire effect may not be real and/or may be very weak. Here's one meta-study: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7462781/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7462781/ As I understand it (I am far from deeply knowledgeable about the literature! I'm just reading a book on this right now), Porter and Wood's 2017 study was one of the first that called into question the strength or existence of the backfire effect: Wood and Porter. "The elusive backfire effect: mass attitudes' steadfast factual adherence." Political Behavior, Jan 6 2018. https://dx.doi.org/10.2139/ssrn.2819073 https://dx.doi.org/10.2139/ssrn.2819073

hypertexthero 5y ago

> When you call yourself an Indian or a Muslim or a Christian or a European, or anything else, you are being violent. Do you see why it is violent? Because you are separating yourself from the rest of mankind. When you separate yourself by belief, by nationality, by tradition, it breeds violence. So a man who is seeking to understand violence does not belong to any country, to any religion, to any political party or partial system; he is concerned with the total understanding of mankind. —Jiddu Krishnamurti, Freedom From the Known, Chapter 6.

ohCh6zos 5y ago
I never thought I would be pro-violence, but if separation from the undifferentiated is violent, then violence is a good thing.

grover35 5y ago

I'm American and I can't help but think many of you just lack social skills. It's very convenient to think that everyone's hyper-sensitive and there's nothing you could do to change that, but usually people are pretty receptive to just about anything as long as you respect them. Avoid leading/gotcha questions, don't smirk, appear to genuinely listen and seek to understand the other person, resist the urge to tool on them if it's shown they're lacking basic knowledge, try to find common ground. I'm relatively conservative and I've never had a problem.

Mezzie 5y ago
It's both. I work in political communications/as a civics educator. I also grew up in a purple state in the 90s with a half liberal family and a half conservative one. The media landscape is completely different now. When I was growing up, my dad and I would do things like listen to Limbaugh and then discuss what points we agreed with + how stuff was covered online (he read the Drudge Report and other conservative online news and I read the opposite). One difference is that back then if I listened, I could get a genuine idea of what the other side wanted: Watching a liberal outlet would tell me, at least broadly, what conservatives wanted. (Fewer taxes, more religion, greater national security, etc.) Likewise for a conservative outlet re: liberals (Gay marriage, no war, etc.) Now? The media is just constantly spouting things that are completely batshit.
- pstuart 5y ago
  > The media landscape is completely different now Not entirely. Right-wing talk radio has been fanning the flames of hatred towards "liberals" (e.g., all "others") for decades. It's taken root and flourished. https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/17/us/politics/limbaugh-death.html https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/17/us/politics/limbaugh-deat...
  - Mezzie 5y ago
    I remember. They were the earliest ones acting like that, but now everybody is. The right wing talking heads used to be a novelty; even when people listened to them like my dad + other conservative relatives, there wasn't a media ECOSYSTEM built around filter bubbling those opinions. The idea of somebody being informed with only what they knew from Limbaugh would have been absurd. You're right that it's been building for a long time; in hindsight we can identify key points (like the development of AM talk radio, the repeal of the Fairness Doctrine, the introduction of CNN/the 24 hour news cycle, digital media's embrace of the advertising funding model), but it's a trend. Both sides are doing it now because it pays.

blablabla123 5y ago

Not sure about that, I've been member of the German Green youth organization and at least when I was younger identified as Green. During that time I had a lot of vivid discussions with people from far left over neo-liberal to right conservative. The discussions were actually often heated but without exception respectful. Nowadays I rather observe something different which leaves a rather chilling sensation. Discussions don't happen or happen just passive-aggressively. People hide their political beliefs and best you get an indication from cynical remarks that often become personal. It's not fun to discuss politics anymore and I usually rather prefer not to. > e.g. incels, preppers, anti-vaxers, jihadists, etc If you take the argument to the extreme, hot heads are not the people who run amok. But rather people who never speak up outside of their peers, hide anonymously and are not properly organized with open meetings, regular sessions and all that...

zksmk 5y ago

I'm surprised nobody's mentioned yet a key (admittedly not only) part in making the US so polarized: first past the post voting system which inevitably leads to a two party system. Good luck having nuance in that system. It literally pits people against each other in two umbrella teams. The internet's echo chamber mechanic has only amplified this. People need to challenge their own beliefs more often. You vote Democrat? Whatever. Who do you vote for in the primaries? Nobody cares... they should. It might open the eyes to the foundations of disagreement not being dehumanizing.

everybodyknows 5y ago
> Who do you vote for in the primaries? Nobody cares... they should. This is a mechanism that in the past limited polarization at the final election. Now, there's ideological policing-by-harassment within both parties.
supreme_loquat 5y ago
I did actually touch on it briefly in [1] but it was not my only focus so perhaps you missed it. But I fully agree our voting system is one of the primary reasons for our polarization (social media is probably another but that's mainly an instinctual hypothesis). Unfortunately the alternative with the most support currently is ranked choice/IRV which does not really solve polarization (perhaps it might help it due to external societal factors, but in a mathematical vacuum I believe IRV is just as polarizing as first past the post). As far as single winner methods go, approval and STAR are gaining momentum and they do address polarization, so if one of these catches on I expect it to help slowly improve our current situation. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29550838 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29550838
- zksmk 5y ago
  Yup, I've missed it somehow. I'm also a fan of approval and particularly star voting compared to IRV. It's good they're gaining ground.

specialist 5y ago

Yes and: Ezra Klein provides a lot of context in the book Why We Are Polarized. It was long argued that partisanship (Dem v GOP) should become polarized, so that voters knew what they were getting. (Careful what you wish for.) Sorting proceeded polarization, then became self reinforcing. To your point about identity, somehow sorting and polarization led to a stacking of our identities, creating super identities. So that any given belief becomes strongly associated with many others. Like a NASCAR fan is more likely a GOP voter. This is somehow like homophily and schismogenesis. Klein concludes by punting on how to unwind polarization. Instead, he advocates majoritarian rule by ending the vetocracy. So then our polarized parties are better held accountable. -- This paper's Attraction-Repulsion Model is worth considering. I really like their use of dynamic simulations. Coolness. Alas, I currently have no clue if ARM has any predictive power (real world use cases). To noob me, sorting and polarization -- tribes and wedge issues -- kinda look similar to k-means clustering and bee colony optimization. ARM isn't so different. I've been reading about voter behaviour modeling. Starting with William McPhee's work. Again, I have no idea if what they're actually doing is any better than phrenology. Having worked on campaigns, I actually know the mechanics of polling, profiling, GOTV. But the work of orgs like Data for Progress, fivethirtyeight, and our local party's quants has always struck me as black magic. (Or complete bullshit. I still haven't decided.)

AnimalMuppet 5y ago

I think it might be stronger than just "identity". Say I am a Republican, and you are a Democrat. That's still OK. We might not be able to have a conversation about politics, but we don't have to be at open warfare with each other. We can still coexist, we just cant talk about politics. But now comes an issue like, say, abortion. You feel like you have to have a country where abortion is freely available, and I feel like I have to have a country where fetuses are safe from being aborted. Now we're at open war with each other. We can no longer coexist. So I think it's a step past identity. It's this idea/feeling that one must have some political result. In politics, sometimes you lose. In fact, in a two-party system, about half the time you lose. People no longer consider that acceptable. That makes it really hard to have a functioning political system.

jfengel 5y ago
Most people are willing to draw compromises, even on abortion. Most people who favor the right to an abortion will accept a line somewhere; many are content to accept the trimester system. Most people who wish to ban it still allow exceptions, such as rape, even though that seems inconsistent with it being really about murder. It's an issue that easily admits being amplified by tribalism, but it doesn't have to be. We don't have to be at war over it. There exist compromises that aren't internally consistent but satisfy the moral intuitions of a large majority of the country. Instead, we're at war -- not because of the issue itself, but because the issue is presented as one where we have to be at war about. They're not looking for a compromise, even among their partisans who would accept one. They're looking for a war, because that war is used to keep their opponents out of office on all issues. It's an effective strategy for winning. Compromise doesn't make you run out to the polls. It doesn't matter how many parties there are. The winner is the one with the most votes. It's easiest to get the most votes when you believe that you are the only ones who are morally righteous, and everybody else is guilty of the one crime that every single person thinks is wrong all the time -- murder. So I believe that it's not stronger than "identity". Identity is how you win elections. Abortion happens to be a great issue for sharply defining identity, but if it weren't that, it would be something else. And along with it comes every other issue that you've managed to agree with your partisans on: you win every argument for free.

dpeck 5y ago

| For example, in America you say "I'm a Republican." or “I’m a Democrat.” I’ve lived in the US all my life, and I feel like I must have missed the day at school that they trained everyone to identify this way. It has always been completely bonkers to me to take on identity defined by a political corporation subject to the whims of the populace (at best) and monied/powered interests (at worst). There are probably vast tomes being written by psychologists and sociologists about how it’s an outgrowth of our lack of community and need for belonging, but at the end of the day I find it all rather sad in the now.

Rury 5y ago

I find the paper a bit ironic, but I think the problem isn't identity beliefs per say, the problem is more innate than that. And the innate problem is merely a conflict in individual wills as Thomas Hobbes argues in his state of nature. Or put more simply, politics is entirely just a conflict in personal wants, and the problem is that other people don't always share the same wants as you do. To demonstrate Hobbes point: imagine living on a desert island, alone by yourself. You can do whatever you desire, as there is no one to stop you from doing it. No law, no opposition whatsoever. If you want to burn everything on the island, no one to stop you! There is no politics to be had! Now, imagine you're on an island, and suddenly there's another person on that island. And all that's on the island is a stack of resources, just enough to either build a boat to safely transport one person off the island, or enough to build a hut to shelter one person so they can live on the island. You want to build a boat to get off the island, however the other person wants to use the resources to build a hut to live on the island. Notice what you want and what the other person wants, is at conflict with another! How do you resolve this conflict in wills? If you compromise, and share the resources, there won't be enough for either of you to get the outcome you want. Additionally, who is righteous to say whichever outcome happens is just/fair? Is it what you both agree on? Well that's both what you will isn't it? Anyhow, being against "anything that undermines democratic norms" is a will of itself. So is the desire to "prevent extreme polarization...", which is really just a roundabout way of saying "Preventing the opposition from doing what it is I want."