6 ms·

Yeah one difficult client can wreak havoc on a freelance business. I would just give an outrageous quote if I wanted to get rid of them. Also why it’s important

by jamil7 5y ago

Yeah one difficult client can wreak havoc on a freelance business. I would just give an outrageous quote if I wanted to get rid of them. Also why it’s important to have contracts.

baobabKoodaa 5y ago
Why would you give an outrageous quote instead of just saying "no"? Do you want the "difficult client" to walk around to other prospects, warning them about how you tried to scam them with an outrageous price? Or are you hoping that they might accept your outrageous price, potentially leading to more outrage down the line when they realize that they overpaid?
- DeathArrow 5y ago
  Maybe he just wants to bill them for their nastiness.
  - NicoJuicy 5y ago
    It's not about nastiness perse i think. Some of the most difficult clients are the richest or could be just freeloaders. Some require exceptional service and immediate response times and are willing to pay for it. Some want to use their behavior to pay less and blame it on you. It's very hard to filter out between those two.
- Veen 5y ago
  Quoting high avoids awkward discussions and filters undesirable clients. It beats saying: "I don't want to work with you because you're an arsehole" or "I find your project excessively boring". As a freelance copywriter, I do it all the time. I get lots of offers from people and companies I don't want to work for, so I quote them an amount I suspect they won't want to pay. > Do you want the "difficult client" to walk around to other prospects, warning them about how you tried to scam them with an outrageous price? It's not a scam. Freelance contracts specify an agreement between me and a client. I can charge whatever I like and they can say no—everything is transparent. I'm not obligated to charge the industry average. In fact, I also vary my price depending on the client: a big tech company gets a bigger bill than a small local business, for example. > are you hoping that they might accept your outrageous price No. I just don't want to work with them. Also, it's not unusual for attractive clients to back out because they don't want to pay my normal rates—they're on the high end for the industries I work with. But that's not a scam either; I charge what the market will bear and I have no shortage of work (just the opposite).
  - baobabKoodaa 5y ago
    > Quoting high avoids awkward discussions and filters undesirable clients. It beats saying: "I don't want to work with you because you're an arsehole" or "I find your project excessively boring". There are ways of turning down projects without being insulting, and without offering outrageously high quotes. For example, you can say "I'm spread out too thin with all my other projects right now, sorry". > It's not a scam. Freelance contracts specify an agreement between me and a client. I can charge whatever I like and they can say no—everything is transparent. I'm not obligated to charge the industry average. This is your opinion, not the opinion of the "difficult client" that you're presenting the quote to. If you offered me a quote that is outrageously expensive, I will assume you are trying to scam me, and I will tell other people that you tried to scam me. Now, my question to you is, is it a desirable outcome for you to have a "difficult client" going around telling everybody that you're trying to scam people? Yes, you have your opinion that you didn't try to scam them, but they'll be going around telling people you tried to scam them nonetheless. To me it seems like this outcome should be avoided when possible. > Also, it's not unusual for attractive clients to back out because they don't want to pay my normal rates—they're on the high end for the industries I work with. But that's not a scam either; I charge what the market will bear and I have no shortage of work (just the opposite). Offering a rate that you believe the market will pay is distinctly different from offering an outrageously high rate that you believe the market will not pay.
    - watt 5y ago
      I think it's valuable to send the message to the prospect that "I don't want to work with you". It sure beats out right lie like "I'm spread out too thin" when you are not, you just don't want to work with an asshole client.
      - deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
      - sciprojguy 5y ago
        "I'm spread too thin" isn't an actual lie as much as it's a reframing. Working with difficult people can take a lot of mental energy, which ought to be considered part of the work effort. It's the polite way of saying "I don't have the bandwidth to do the work and manage my way around your issues, so best of luck finding someone who does have that bandwidth" the same way that "Thank you for your input" is a polite way (in the business world) of saying "That was the dumbest thing I have heard all day".
- jamil7 5y ago
  Two entities entering a contractual agreement over an agreed price doesn't in anyway meet the definition of a scam so I'm not sure where you're getting that from. You sound somewhat naive on how negotiations like this often go, clients will pull all kinds of tricks to try and low-ball or scam free or below rate work out of freelancers, it's par for the course. You learn early on ways to spot them and ways to avoid them, difficult clients are often also price sensitive ones (no not always) so it's a pretty common way of getting out quickly and avoiding having an awkward discussion.
  - baobabKoodaa 5y ago
    > Two entities entering a contractual agreement over an agreed price doesn't in anyway meet the definition of a scam so I'm not sure where you're getting that from. I'm not a lawyer, but there are documented court cases in Finland where "two entities entered a contractual agreement over an agreed price", and then later the court determined that the price was outrageous and therefore it was actually fraud. For example, a door-to-door salesman selling house renovations to elderly people for 10x prices. Now, perhaps this is not fraud in the jurisdiction where you live, but it is definitely fraud in Finland.
    - unionpivo 5y ago
      Where I live its context dependent. > selling house renovations to elderly people for 10x prices is illegal if the targets were elderly (or disabled), but not if you are just regular Joe and definitively not to business. In fact that's how politicians usually "help" their friends here, so laws are quite muddy probably on purpose
      - baobabKoodaa 5y ago
        I am not a lawyer, so I can't argue on the topic of legality, but I can promise you: if you try to sell me something at 10x market price, I _will_ go around telling people you're a scammer. Then you can explain to people how you're actually not breaking any law while scamming people.
- NicoJuicy 5y ago
  Difficult clients mostly also want you to work for cheap. So there's logic in it. Money does balance the difficult clients too. Since they require more work too handle.
seanwilson 5y ago
> I would just give an outrageous quote if I wanted to get rid of them. Also why it’s important to have contracts. Yeah, I don't get this either. Isn't putting together a proposal with a fake high price for someone you don't want to work really awkward and a waste of time for everyone? It's like a power-trip meme in freelancer forums. "I don't think I'm a good fit for this project" is fine. Even when there's nothing wrong with the client, variations of this answer are fine when you're too busy, the deadline is too tight, they're using unfamiliar tech, it sounds risky, they want you to work in a way you don't want to work etc.
- tut-urut-utut 5y ago
  > Yeah, I don't get this either. Isn't putting together a proposal with a fake high price for someone you don't want to work really awkward and a waste of time for everyone? It's like a power-trip meme in freelancer forums. It doesn't mean the price is fake. If your client is difficult, you know you'll have more phone calls, spend more time on interacting with them than with the code, would need to give them more support, haggle on the requirements and changer requests. All that cost time. And since I don't like to do those things, my rate for "having a call with the client" is higher than my rate for "developing the feature". Of course, clients doesn't need to know my internal pricing, so he would either get my "x2-3 normal hourly rate" or "xX normal project price" depending on the type of project.
  - seanwilson 5y ago
    I'm talking about cases where you don't want to work for them at all. It's very sensible and normal to quote more if you expect higher admin time and other complications that carry risk e.g. many stakeholders to get agreement from.
    - tut-urut-utut 5y ago
      > I'm talking about cases where you don't want to work for them at all. Given enough money, I would be thrilled to work for the worst client I can imagine. There are very few cases where I would flat out refuse to work with a client, regardless of money. And in those cases, I would be scared to death to just say: “sorry, I feel it would be better not to work for you, although you want it”.

by jamil7 5y ago

Yeah one difficult client can wreak havoc on a freelance business. I would just give an outrageous quote if I wanted to get rid of them. Also why it’s important to have contracts.

baobabKoodaa 5y ago

Why would you give an outrageous quote instead of just saying "no"? Do you want the "difficult client" to walk around to other prospects, warning them about how you tried to scam them with an outrageous price? Or are you hoping that they might accept your outrageous price, potentially leading to more outrage down the line when they realize that they overpaid?

DeathArrow 5y ago
Maybe he just wants to bill them for their nastiness.
- NicoJuicy 5y ago
  It's not about nastiness perse i think. Some of the most difficult clients are the richest or could be just freeloaders. Some require exceptional service and immediate response times and are willing to pay for it. Some want to use their behavior to pay less and blame it on you. It's very hard to filter out between those two.
Veen 5y ago
Quoting high avoids awkward discussions and filters undesirable clients. It beats saying: "I don't want to work with you because you're an arsehole" or "I find your project excessively boring". As a freelance copywriter, I do it all the time. I get lots of offers from people and companies I don't want to work for, so I quote them an amount I suspect they won't want to pay. > Do you want the "difficult client" to walk around to other prospects, warning them about how you tried to scam them with an outrageous price? It's not a scam. Freelance contracts specify an agreement between me and a client. I can charge whatever I like and they can say no—everything is transparent. I'm not obligated to charge the industry average. In fact, I also vary my price depending on the client: a big tech company gets a bigger bill than a small local business, for example. > are you hoping that they might accept your outrageous price No. I just don't want to work with them. Also, it's not unusual for attractive clients to back out because they don't want to pay my normal rates—they're on the high end for the industries I work with. But that's not a scam either; I charge what the market will bear and I have no shortage of work (just the opposite).
- baobabKoodaa 5y ago
  > Quoting high avoids awkward discussions and filters undesirable clients. It beats saying: "I don't want to work with you because you're an arsehole" or "I find your project excessively boring". There are ways of turning down projects without being insulting, and without offering outrageously high quotes. For example, you can say "I'm spread out too thin with all my other projects right now, sorry". > It's not a scam. Freelance contracts specify an agreement between me and a client. I can charge whatever I like and they can say no—everything is transparent. I'm not obligated to charge the industry average. This is your opinion, not the opinion of the "difficult client" that you're presenting the quote to. If you offered me a quote that is outrageously expensive, I will assume you are trying to scam me, and I will tell other people that you tried to scam me. Now, my question to you is, is it a desirable outcome for you to have a "difficult client" going around telling everybody that you're trying to scam people? Yes, you have your opinion that you didn't try to scam them, but they'll be going around telling people you tried to scam them nonetheless. To me it seems like this outcome should be avoided when possible. > Also, it's not unusual for attractive clients to back out because they don't want to pay my normal rates—they're on the high end for the industries I work with. But that's not a scam either; I charge what the market will bear and I have no shortage of work (just the opposite). Offering a rate that you believe the market will pay is distinctly different from offering an outrageously high rate that you believe the market will not pay.
  - watt 5y ago
    I think it's valuable to send the message to the prospect that "I don't want to work with you". It sure beats out right lie like "I'm spread out too thin" when you are not, you just don't want to work with an asshole client.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    - sciprojguy 5y ago
      "I'm spread too thin" isn't an actual lie as much as it's a reframing. Working with difficult people can take a lot of mental energy, which ought to be considered part of the work effort. It's the polite way of saying "I don't have the bandwidth to do the work and manage my way around your issues, so best of luck finding someone who does have that bandwidth" the same way that "Thank you for your input" is a polite way (in the business world) of saying "That was the dumbest thing I have heard all day".
jamil7 5y ago
Two entities entering a contractual agreement over an agreed price doesn't in anyway meet the definition of a scam so I'm not sure where you're getting that from. You sound somewhat naive on how negotiations like this often go, clients will pull all kinds of tricks to try and low-ball or scam free or below rate work out of freelancers, it's par for the course. You learn early on ways to spot them and ways to avoid them, difficult clients are often also price sensitive ones (no not always) so it's a pretty common way of getting out quickly and avoiding having an awkward discussion.
- baobabKoodaa 5y ago
  > Two entities entering a contractual agreement over an agreed price doesn't in anyway meet the definition of a scam so I'm not sure where you're getting that from. I'm not a lawyer, but there are documented court cases in Finland where "two entities entered a contractual agreement over an agreed price", and then later the court determined that the price was outrageous and therefore it was actually fraud. For example, a door-to-door salesman selling house renovations to elderly people for 10x prices. Now, perhaps this is not fraud in the jurisdiction where you live, but it is definitely fraud in Finland.
  - unionpivo 5y ago
    Where I live its context dependent. > selling house renovations to elderly people for 10x prices is illegal if the targets were elderly (or disabled), but not if you are just regular Joe and definitively not to business. In fact that's how politicians usually "help" their friends here, so laws are quite muddy probably on purpose
    - baobabKoodaa 5y ago
      I am not a lawyer, so I can't argue on the topic of legality, but I can promise you: if you try to sell me something at 10x market price, I _will_ go around telling people you're a scammer. Then you can explain to people how you're actually not breaking any law while scamming people.
NicoJuicy 5y ago
Difficult clients mostly also want you to work for cheap. So there's logic in it. Money does balance the difficult clients too. Since they require more work too handle.

seanwilson 5y ago

> I would just give an outrageous quote if I wanted to get rid of them. Also why it’s important to have contracts. Yeah, I don't get this either. Isn't putting together a proposal with a fake high price for someone you don't want to work really awkward and a waste of time for everyone? It's like a power-trip meme in freelancer forums. "I don't think I'm a good fit for this project" is fine. Even when there's nothing wrong with the client, variations of this answer are fine when you're too busy, the deadline is too tight, they're using unfamiliar tech, it sounds risky, they want you to work in a way you don't want to work etc.

tut-urut-utut 5y ago
> Yeah, I don't get this either. Isn't putting together a proposal with a fake high price for someone you don't want to work really awkward and a waste of time for everyone? It's like a power-trip meme in freelancer forums. It doesn't mean the price is fake. If your client is difficult, you know you'll have more phone calls, spend more time on interacting with them than with the code, would need to give them more support, haggle on the requirements and changer requests. All that cost time. And since I don't like to do those things, my rate for "having a call with the client" is higher than my rate for "developing the feature". Of course, clients doesn't need to know my internal pricing, so he would either get my "x2-3 normal hourly rate" or "xX normal project price" depending on the type of project.
- seanwilson 5y ago
  I'm talking about cases where you don't want to work for them at all. It's very sensible and normal to quote more if you expect higher admin time and other complications that carry risk e.g. many stakeholders to get agreement from.
  - tut-urut-utut 5y ago
    > I'm talking about cases where you don't want to work for them at all. Given enough money, I would be thrilled to work for the worst client I can imagine. There are very few cases where I would flat out refuse to work with a client, regardless of money. And in those cases, I would be scared to death to just say: “sorry, I feel it would be better not to work for you, although you want it”.