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I love San Francisco more than most places I don't live, but I really have a hard time even beginning to agree on any description of it or really any part of Ca

I love San Francisco more than most places I don't live, but I really have a hard time even beginning to agree on any description of it or really any part of California as a "progressive utopia". Certainly it has a lot of open minded people in it, but it has awful housing policy, mediocre transit for a city its size, historically some of the most brutal police behaviour and crackdowns, and an incredibly stark wealth divide. Many of these things get reflected in policies about land use too, to which the things this article is talking about are likely second order effects. I mean, realistically table stakes for progressive utopia have to include universal health care, which I guess makes Hawaii the only state that's even at the table.

mjfl 5y ago
> I really have a hard time even beginning to agree on any description of it or really any part of California as a "progressive utopia". I think the label is tongue in cheek. You would agree that San Francisco has the most "progressive" policies of any American city, and therefore if there was a "progressive utopia", SF would be the closest to it?
- stormbrew 5y ago
  I can't honestly say that I know enough about enough American cities to know if I agree with that, but I would honestly be pretty surprised if there aren't any American cities that rate better on the things I listed, in part or on whole. As another person in this thread mentioned I think the one exceptional standout is LGBT issues, and even that's largely because of a motivated local queer community and even then it's also the city where Harvey Milk was shot.
eganist 5y ago
Eh, Alaska has the oil dividends.
salt-thrower 5y ago
And on top of that, the politics and policies of these so-called progressive utopia cities in California are frequently the subject of scorn and derision by actual progressives I know of. I don't know anyone who would genuinely call it a "progressive utopia." It's a laughable idea unless you're trying to sell headline clicks.
- magicink81 5y ago
  The "utopia" part is a jab at fantasy thinking, lacking practicality, and most likely leading to poor outcomes. "Utopia" is generally used in a derogatory way by people who consider themselves practical.
- wk_end 5y ago
  I don't know if that's completely fair. I agree that San Francisco fails as a "true progressive utopia", but it feels like this is maybe a kind of "no true Scotsman". Labelling things is hard, but as far as "progressive utopias" can and do manifest themselves in the United States, San Francisco is probably as close as it gets.
  - Talanes 5y ago
    San Francisco isn't even as close to progressive utopia as it gets in the Bay.
    - freyir 5y ago
      Where would that be?
  - epistasis 5y ago
    I find very little to be actually progressive in San Francisco, unless it's for national level politics. Anything that affects local political power hierarchies is extremely regressive.
  - SideburnsOfDoom 5y ago
    Why limit to the United states? That's quite a severe restriction that cuts out the best real-world examples in Northern Europe. That also feels like a kind of "no true Scotsman" clause, an "ah well, but those aren't _American_ progressive Utopias".
    - wk_end 5y ago
      Well, it's this trouble with labeling things. The San Francisco electorate, by and large, would likely call themselves "very progressive", probably more so than any other major city in the country. Almost all of the significant power brokers, all the way up to the governor's office, in San Francisco politics would call themselves "very progressive". In that sense, San Francisco's government represents the one of the purest embodiments of what is a real political bloc or viewpoint or movement, one that calls itself "progressive", and what it might hope to achieve. Friedersdorf wants to call this politics "progressive" too; you object, and say this "American progressiveness", and the utopia created in its image to the best of its abilities, has little to do with "real progressives" and what their utopia might be like. But either way, I think what I'm trying to get at is - regardless of what you want to call it, it's real. And I think there's something to be said for, "Conor Friedersdorf is an American, writing in an American magazine, about American politics" that makes it reasonable to highlight that distinction, or default to an American understanding of the term. I'm not trying to say that "Nordic progressiveness" isn't better than "American progressiveness", or that it isn't good or workable, but I'm hesitant to say that it's "truer" than "American progressiveness" - that's the fallacy. (and, for what it's worth: highlighting a real distinction is certainly a rhetorical feint, and maybe a case of moving the goalposts, but it's not the same as No True Scotsman, where the distinction is, as Wikipedia puts it, "rhetoric [that] takes the form of emotionally charged but nonsubstantive purity platitudes") But to be clear, I do like this reply a lot. And also to be clear, I'm Canadian, and in most respects like the way Canada is more progressive (in any sense, really) than the US, and think both of us would be better off if we were more like the Nordic countries. So I think it's valuable to ask, then: why is it that, Sweden, say, is more successful at producing good "real" "progressive utopias" than San Francisco?
ErikVandeWater 5y ago
San Francisco is at least partially the "Utopia" you get when you pave your path with good intentions. Bluest or close to Bluest city in a solidly Blue state. I think the author is being tongue-in-cheek.
b9a2cab5 5y ago
It's honestly not surprising in my view. Wealthy "progressives" have always had a "rules for thee but not for me" attitude, whether it comes to homeless shelters, new housing starts, police funding, or affirmative action.
- bccdee 5y ago
  It seems very weird that people are attributing this to progressivism. It's bad governance perhaps, but it has nothing to do with California's social policies. Since when are open container laws "progressive"? It's as if the author realized nobody would read his article about patio dining, and went back and made it about how progressivism is destroying patio dining instead, because... California.
  - b9a2cab5 5y ago
    The article is about how an amalgamation of feel-good laws combined to destroy restaurants' ability to offer patio dining. Passing feel-good laws that have poorly thought out consequences is what California "progressives" do. That's why it's about how "progressivism" is destroying patio dining. If this was about actual progressivism then you'd see any number of East Coast blue states mentioned, which they aren't.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    - tjr225 5y ago
      How is outside dining in any of the east coast blue states? Do you even know? Outside dining in the PNW was(prior to Covid) and is chugging along just fine.
      - MathCodeLove 5y ago
        That's the point they were making.
    - stefs 5y ago
jacobolus 5y ago
Honolulu has the most ridiculous transportation system imaginable. Continuous traffic jams of single people in cars commuting all to the same few places (and huge amounts of real estate devoted to roads and parking), in a setting where their cars literally can’t go anywhere else (it’s an island!) or fulfill any of the supposed advantages of cars vs. other modes of transportation, and where the primary industry is tourism – visitors who obviously can’t bring their own private vehicles. Scrapping 3/4 of the private vehicles there and investing in frequent high quality public transportation would make the city dramatically nicer.
- dylan604 5y ago
  My one visit to Hawaii was kind of eye opening in how there were so many cars just abandoned on the roads. They are just left there to rot in the salt air. The gov't doesn't remove them. It was just such a bizarre thing to see for a not-3rd world state.
  - forgingahead 5y ago
    just such a bizarre thing to see for a not-3rd world state Unfortunately I'm not sure how valid this couching is any more. A lot of what was historically perceived as "third world" started from a POV that was 1950s - 1970s America, where the rest of the world was still either under communism or recovering from the ashes of WWII. Today, there are many hundreds of cities & states in Asia that far outshine many US and European cities & states in "developedness". The problem is that the leadership in these Western places refuse to realise they can't keep relying on historical achievement to compete in the 21st Century. Hawaii (and others) need to buck up.
    - avgcorrection 5y ago
      Historical achievement? History is written by the victors.
      - ClumsyPilot 5y ago
        Then 'perception of historical achievement'?
epistasis 5y ago
San Francisco is where reactionary conservatism is couched in the right sort of language and gets passed off as Progressive (the capital P is for the political faction). Any true progressivism that may affect the wealthy homeowner class is rejected with flowery but nonsensical arguments: > “Zoning is racist and made by people like me who live here to increase my profit on my property. That’s [pro-housing activists’] line…tell that to the folks in Bayview-Hunters Point, the largest single family home owning area in the city.” > >It seemed to be lost on the group, which consisted of eleven white people over the age of forty, that minority homeowners might be clustered in that area in part because of redlining and racist zoning laws that restricted access to other neighborhoods. https://www.thebaycitybeacon.com/politics/the-sierra-club-fights-to-save-a-parking-garage/article_93ff9084-3be7-11e7-a3a8-17f11f24db6e.html https://www.thebaycitybeacon.com/politics/the-sierra-club-fi... The politics are truly cursed in SF and nothing makes sense, and all rhetoric is hidden behind several layers of misdirection and retribution for long-held grudges.
- danans 5y ago
  > > “Zoning is racist and made by people like me who live here to increase my profit on my property. That’s [pro-housing activists’] line ... You left out some important context there. The full quote from the article is: "For a club that sees themselves as progressive, it is ironic that they are such strong advocates for strict zoning rules, a practice rooted in racism and designed to segregate neighborhoods. This was actually a running joke in the meeting, which began when Welch sarcastically stated, “Zoning is racist and made by people like me who live here to increase my profit on my property. That’s [pro-housing activists’] line…tell that to the folks in Bayview-Hunters Point, the largest single family home owning area in the city.”"
  - romwell 5y ago
    I'd hope that the sarcasm is obvious, but the full snippet is better nevertheless.
    - danans 5y ago
wahern 5y ago
> table stakes for progressive utopia have to include universal health care Is this close enough? > Healthy San Francisco, created by City Ordinance in July 2006, is San Francisco’s health access program for the uninsured, the first of its kind in the nation. Healthy San Francisco is not insurance, but provides uninsured San Francisco residents access to affordable basic and ongoing health care services, including primary care through a medical home, as well as specialty and inpatient care, diagnostic and mental health services, and prescription drugs. All uninsured adult City residents who are not eligible for other public programs are eligible to enroll in Healthy San Francisco, regardless of immigration status, employment status, or pre-existing medical conditions. Source: https://healthysanfrancisco.org/wp-content/uploads/Kaiser-Survey-of-HSF-Participants-Aug-2009.pdf https://healthysanfrancisco.org/wp-content/uploads/Kaiser-Su...
TeeMassive 5y ago
I wish people could see the value of issue politics more rather than participating in the tribal chicaneries meant to divide us.
piokoch 5y ago
I think you gave a very good description of "progressive reality": a mixture of unrealistic assumptions about human nature mixed with good intentions that went wrong and all of this advertised by crafty people who know how to get rich by being "progressive".
avgcorrection 5y ago
Whenever someone calls a real place a “utopia” it’s usually in a derisive manner.
oxymoran 5y ago
It was sarcasm for authoritarian hellscape
raxxorrax 5y ago
I think whoever sold high density housing policy as a progressive issue needs the get an Oscar for propaganda as it seems to be working extremely well. It has been so entrenched in the minds of people that this is a progressive solution. Only real estate groups can finance housing like this and it would create a situation where most people pay rent to their own detriment in the long term if you also criticise wealth divide, because this particular position would most certainly increase it. Of course real estate would love nothing more than high value cities zoning land for them to build thousands of housing units. That is like printing money if you have the capital to invest. I firmly believe people reject progressivism because they feel they would end up exploited and positions like this make that seem sensible. Public transport is a classical progressive issue, also trying to curb police violence. In general I would agree, but the "progressive" strategy for policy makers seems to be more talk than action.
- comicjk 5y ago
  The reason it's "like printing money" to build an apartment building is that there are so few relative to demand. You're using the result of a shortage as an argument not to fix the shortage.
- stormbrew 5y ago
  Eh, I think this is a pretty complicated thing really. Part of the problem I think is that American-style land-use policies create a very bipolar concept of density. Everything has to be either SFH or high rises and the middle gets squeezed out. Both of these I think favour big developers: either big enough to buy large tracts of land to build houses on or big enough to afford the capitally intensive process of building large scale buildings. Other parts of the world seem to be less keen on both kinds of housing and also often manage to have healthier cities by most metrics. Also, broad home ownership as a kind of free market mechanism for wealth transfer has been a big push, but I think the results are pretty mixed in practice. It worked for a while, particularly while family incomes were growing thanks to the workforce growing post-WWII, but it's also likely that it contributed to creating a new kind of wealthy elite that has become protective of itself, and that manifests particularly badly in California where property tax law is... comically absurd? I dunno. Leftism existed before there was literally any hope of "everyone owning a home." Landlords are also deeply problematic from a left or progressive perspective, but I don't think that means the answer is the opposite. Also, in practice, it doesn't really seem like developers are that keen on building "thousands of units". They seem much happier to build hundreds of really expensive ones. But it's hard to tell what they'd do without modern zoning laws.

mjfl 5y ago

> I really have a hard time even beginning to agree on any description of it or really any part of California as a "progressive utopia". I think the label is tongue in cheek. You would agree that San Francisco has the most "progressive" policies of any American city, and therefore if there was a "progressive utopia", SF would be the closest to it?

stormbrew 5y ago
I can't honestly say that I know enough about enough American cities to know if I agree with that, but I would honestly be pretty surprised if there aren't any American cities that rate better on the things I listed, in part or on whole. As another person in this thread mentioned I think the one exceptional standout is LGBT issues, and even that's largely because of a motivated local queer community and even then it's also the city where Harvey Milk was shot.

eganist 5y ago

Eh, Alaska has the oil dividends.

salt-thrower 5y ago

And on top of that, the politics and policies of these so-called progressive utopia cities in California are frequently the subject of scorn and derision by actual progressives I know of. I don't know anyone who would genuinely call it a "progressive utopia." It's a laughable idea unless you're trying to sell headline clicks.

magicink81 5y ago
The "utopia" part is a jab at fantasy thinking, lacking practicality, and most likely leading to poor outcomes. "Utopia" is generally used in a derogatory way by people who consider themselves practical.
wk_end 5y ago
I don't know if that's completely fair. I agree that San Francisco fails as a "true progressive utopia", but it feels like this is maybe a kind of "no true Scotsman". Labelling things is hard, but as far as "progressive utopias" can and do manifest themselves in the United States, San Francisco is probably as close as it gets.
- Talanes 5y ago
  San Francisco isn't even as close to progressive utopia as it gets in the Bay.
  - freyir 5y ago
    Where would that be?
- epistasis 5y ago
  I find very little to be actually progressive in San Francisco, unless it's for national level politics. Anything that affects local political power hierarchies is extremely regressive.
- SideburnsOfDoom 5y ago
  Why limit to the United states? That's quite a severe restriction that cuts out the best real-world examples in Northern Europe. That also feels like a kind of "no true Scotsman" clause, an "ah well, but those aren't _American_ progressive Utopias".
  - wk_end 5y ago
    Well, it's this trouble with labeling things. The San Francisco electorate, by and large, would likely call themselves "very progressive", probably more so than any other major city in the country. Almost all of the significant power brokers, all the way up to the governor's office, in San Francisco politics would call themselves "very progressive". In that sense, San Francisco's government represents the one of the purest embodiments of what is a real political bloc or viewpoint or movement, one that calls itself "progressive", and what it might hope to achieve. Friedersdorf wants to call this politics "progressive" too; you object, and say this "American progressiveness", and the utopia created in its image to the best of its abilities, has little to do with "real progressives" and what their utopia might be like. But either way, I think what I'm trying to get at is - regardless of what you want to call it, it's real. And I think there's something to be said for, "Conor Friedersdorf is an American, writing in an American magazine, about American politics" that makes it reasonable to highlight that distinction, or default to an American understanding of the term. I'm not trying to say that "Nordic progressiveness" isn't better than "American progressiveness", or that it isn't good or workable, but I'm hesitant to say that it's "truer" than "American progressiveness" - that's the fallacy. (and, for what it's worth: highlighting a real distinction is certainly a rhetorical feint, and maybe a case of moving the goalposts, but it's not the same as No True Scotsman, where the distinction is, as Wikipedia puts it, "rhetoric [that] takes the form of emotionally charged but nonsubstantive purity platitudes") But to be clear, I do like this reply a lot. And also to be clear, I'm Canadian, and in most respects like the way Canada is more progressive (in any sense, really) than the US, and think both of us would be better off if we were more like the Nordic countries. So I think it's valuable to ask, then: why is it that, Sweden, say, is more successful at producing good "real" "progressive utopias" than San Francisco?

ErikVandeWater 5y ago

San Francisco is at least partially the "Utopia" you get when you pave your path with good intentions. Bluest or close to Bluest city in a solidly Blue state. I think the author is being tongue-in-cheek.

b9a2cab5 5y ago

It's honestly not surprising in my view. Wealthy "progressives" have always had a "rules for thee but not for me" attitude, whether it comes to homeless shelters, new housing starts, police funding, or affirmative action.

bccdee 5y ago
It seems very weird that people are attributing this to progressivism. It's bad governance perhaps, but it has nothing to do with California's social policies. Since when are open container laws "progressive"? It's as if the author realized nobody would read his article about patio dining, and went back and made it about how progressivism is destroying patio dining instead, because... California.
- b9a2cab5 5y ago
  The article is about how an amalgamation of feel-good laws combined to destroy restaurants' ability to offer patio dining. Passing feel-good laws that have poorly thought out consequences is what California "progressives" do. That's why it's about how "progressivism" is destroying patio dining. If this was about actual progressivism then you'd see any number of East Coast blue states mentioned, which they aren't.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - tjr225 5y ago
    How is outside dining in any of the east coast blue states? Do you even know? Outside dining in the PNW was(prior to Covid) and is chugging along just fine.
    - MathCodeLove 5y ago
      That's the point they were making.
  - stefs 5y ago

jacobolus 5y ago

Honolulu has the most ridiculous transportation system imaginable. Continuous traffic jams of single people in cars commuting all to the same few places (and huge amounts of real estate devoted to roads and parking), in a setting where their cars literally can’t go anywhere else (it’s an island!) or fulfill any of the supposed advantages of cars vs. other modes of transportation, and where the primary industry is tourism – visitors who obviously can’t bring their own private vehicles. Scrapping 3/4 of the private vehicles there and investing in frequent high quality public transportation would make the city dramatically nicer.

dylan604 5y ago
My one visit to Hawaii was kind of eye opening in how there were so many cars just abandoned on the roads. They are just left there to rot in the salt air. The gov't doesn't remove them. It was just such a bizarre thing to see for a not-3rd world state.
- forgingahead 5y ago
  just such a bizarre thing to see for a not-3rd world state Unfortunately I'm not sure how valid this couching is any more. A lot of what was historically perceived as "third world" started from a POV that was 1950s - 1970s America, where the rest of the world was still either under communism or recovering from the ashes of WWII. Today, there are many hundreds of cities & states in Asia that far outshine many US and European cities & states in "developedness". The problem is that the leadership in these Western places refuse to realise they can't keep relying on historical achievement to compete in the 21st Century. Hawaii (and others) need to buck up.
  - avgcorrection 5y ago
    Historical achievement? History is written by the victors.
    - ClumsyPilot 5y ago
      Then 'perception of historical achievement'?

epistasis 5y ago

San Francisco is where reactionary conservatism is couched in the right sort of language and gets passed off as Progressive (the capital P is for the political faction). Any true progressivism that may affect the wealthy homeowner class is rejected with flowery but nonsensical arguments: > “Zoning is racist and made by people like me who live here to increase my profit on my property. That’s [pro-housing activists’] line…tell that to the folks in Bayview-Hunters Point, the largest single family home owning area in the city.” > >It seemed to be lost on the group, which consisted of eleven white people over the age of forty, that minority homeowners might be clustered in that area in part because of redlining and racist zoning laws that restricted access to other neighborhoods. https://www.thebaycitybeacon.com/politics/the-sierra-club-fights-to-save-a-parking-garage/article_93ff9084-3be7-11e7-a3a8-17f11f24db6e.html https://www.thebaycitybeacon.com/politics/the-sierra-club-fi... The politics are truly cursed in SF and nothing makes sense, and all rhetoric is hidden behind several layers of misdirection and retribution for long-held grudges.

danans 5y ago
> > “Zoning is racist and made by people like me who live here to increase my profit on my property. That’s [pro-housing activists’] line ... You left out some important context there. The full quote from the article is: "For a club that sees themselves as progressive, it is ironic that they are such strong advocates for strict zoning rules, a practice rooted in racism and designed to segregate neighborhoods. This was actually a running joke in the meeting, which began when Welch sarcastically stated, “Zoning is racist and made by people like me who live here to increase my profit on my property. That’s [pro-housing activists’] line…tell that to the folks in Bayview-Hunters Point, the largest single family home owning area in the city.”"
- romwell 5y ago
  I'd hope that the sarcasm is obvious, but the full snippet is better nevertheless.
  - danans 5y ago

wahern 5y ago

> table stakes for progressive utopia have to include universal health care Is this close enough? > Healthy San Francisco, created by City Ordinance in July 2006, is San Francisco’s health access program for the uninsured, the first of its kind in the nation. Healthy San Francisco is not insurance, but provides uninsured San Francisco residents access to affordable basic and ongoing health care services, including primary care through a medical home, as well as specialty and inpatient care, diagnostic and mental health services, and prescription drugs. All uninsured adult City residents who are not eligible for other public programs are eligible to enroll in Healthy San Francisco, regardless of immigration status, employment status, or pre-existing medical conditions. Source: https://healthysanfrancisco.org/wp-content/uploads/Kaiser-Survey-of-HSF-Participants-Aug-2009.pdf https://healthysanfrancisco.org/wp-content/uploads/Kaiser-Su...

TeeMassive 5y ago

I wish people could see the value of issue politics more rather than participating in the tribal chicaneries meant to divide us.

piokoch 5y ago

I think you gave a very good description of "progressive reality": a mixture of unrealistic assumptions about human nature mixed with good intentions that went wrong and all of this advertised by crafty people who know how to get rich by being "progressive".

avgcorrection 5y ago

Whenever someone calls a real place a “utopia” it’s usually in a derisive manner.

oxymoran 5y ago

It was sarcasm for authoritarian hellscape

raxxorrax 5y ago

I think whoever sold high density housing policy as a progressive issue needs the get an Oscar for propaganda as it seems to be working extremely well. It has been so entrenched in the minds of people that this is a progressive solution. Only real estate groups can finance housing like this and it would create a situation where most people pay rent to their own detriment in the long term if you also criticise wealth divide, because this particular position would most certainly increase it. Of course real estate would love nothing more than high value cities zoning land for them to build thousands of housing units. That is like printing money if you have the capital to invest. I firmly believe people reject progressivism because they feel they would end up exploited and positions like this make that seem sensible. Public transport is a classical progressive issue, also trying to curb police violence. In general I would agree, but the "progressive" strategy for policy makers seems to be more talk than action.

comicjk 5y ago
The reason it's "like printing money" to build an apartment building is that there are so few relative to demand. You're using the result of a shortage as an argument not to fix the shortage.
stormbrew 5y ago
Eh, I think this is a pretty complicated thing really. Part of the problem I think is that American-style land-use policies create a very bipolar concept of density. Everything has to be either SFH or high rises and the middle gets squeezed out. Both of these I think favour big developers: either big enough to buy large tracts of land to build houses on or big enough to afford the capitally intensive process of building large scale buildings. Other parts of the world seem to be less keen on both kinds of housing and also often manage to have healthier cities by most metrics. Also, broad home ownership as a kind of free market mechanism for wealth transfer has been a big push, but I think the results are pretty mixed in practice. It worked for a while, particularly while family incomes were growing thanks to the workforce growing post-WWII, but it's also likely that it contributed to creating a new kind of wealthy elite that has become protective of itself, and that manifests particularly badly in California where property tax law is... comically absurd? I dunno. Leftism existed before there was literally any hope of "everyone owning a home." Landlords are also deeply problematic from a left or progressive perspective, but I don't think that means the answer is the opposite. Also, in practice, it doesn't really seem like developers are that keen on building "thousands of units". They seem much happier to build hundreds of really expensive ones. But it's hard to tell what they'd do without modern zoning laws.