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Another good quote for the OP is Miguel De Cervantes, author if Don Quixote: "there is madness in too much sanity, and the greatest madness of all is to see thi

Another good quote for the OP is Miguel De Cervantes, author if Don Quixote: "there is madness in too much sanity, and the greatest madness of all is to see things as they are instead of as they should be". He would know: Cervantes killed a rival on a duel at 17 and fled to sea. They were attacked by pirates and he fought well before getting his hand blown off and taken prisoner. He lived in captivity but befriended his captor, who taught him chess and literacy. Then he was "rescued" by monks who bought his freedom but placed him on indentured servitude through debt, which he finally escaped by writing one of the early great novels. The point of this story is not that cynics were wrong but that one never would have survived his ordeal. In a world fit for cynics, you have to be ready for things to go right if you want to escape.

peoplefromibiza 5y ago
a cynic would have probably avoided the duel and lived a less turbulent life. p.s. I don't think Don Quixote is a great example of optimism...
jean_valje4n 5y ago
And then there was Caesar who promised the pirates who captured him that he would be back. And he did come back for them. I suppose his ending wasn't the greatest, but Dante placed his betrayers into a special place in literary hell.
- jihadjihad 5y ago
  I didn't know this story so I looked it up [0]. According to Plutarch, it's true: Caesar was captured by pirates in his twenties, and was insulted by their lowball ransom of 20 talents--he thought he was worth at least 50. He told the pirates they should up the ransom and that once it was delivered and he was freed, he'd have them all crucified. They thought it was a pretty good joke. He wasn't joking. Once free, he raised an army and a fleet and went back to the pirate's camp, capturing them and having them thrown in prison. Apparently he showed them mercy by having their throats cut before they were crucified, however. 0: https://www.britannica.com/story/the-time-julius-caesar-was-captured-by-pirates https://www.britannica.com/story/the-time-julius-caesar-was-...
  - oblio 5y ago
    It's actually an extreme case of privilege. The pirates were probably some very poor commoners who turned to a life of crime, while he was a member of one of the most powerful political families in Ancient Rome. His upbringing was nothing like that of what were probably children the dirt poor farmers. He was lucky that no one snapped (I imagine some did but the thought of such a huge amount of money meant that everyone was kept in line) and the rest is just a bold and vengeful ultra rich, ultra privileged person getting their revenge.
    - xyzzy123 5y ago
      "Do you know who I am?" there's no woke reading where Julius Caesar can be rehabiliated for modern sensibilities. It's still unbelievably badass. I don't think you can retcon modern thinking on it, he was the actual thing and that was beautiful and terrible.
      - oblio 5y ago
        It is very bold, but my point is that commoners were naturally very afraid of nobles. On top of that, in this particular case they knew the financial value of capturing a noble, let alone the fact that this particular noble promised them even more money. As another commoner you'd probably get gutted like a fish if you'd try the same thing.
        xyzzy123 5y ago
        It's true but being noble was its own thing with its own particular risks and costs. If you were to choose undeserving nobles across history IMHO J C would be among the worst sells.
mitko 5y ago
OP here, thanks a lot for sharing this enlightening story. Your last paragraph remind me also of the Viktor Frankl's "Man Search For Meaning" where the change in outlook was a difference between persevering and perishing in the camps.
- unmole 5y ago
  > Your last paragraph remind me also of the Viktor Frankl's "Man Search For Meaning" where the change in outlook was a difference between persevering and perishing in the camps. Which is complete and utter nonsense. Sure, it makes for nice advertising for Frankl's Logotherapy shtick but it's not an accurate picture of what happened in the camps.
  - Daishiman 5y ago
    The fundamental point of people giving up vs resisting is the core thesis of Frankl and has rung true to every facet of life. Even if we are to assume his story is embellished, I have seen it played out time and time again.
    - quincunx 5y ago
      Can you elaborate a bit on "resisting"? Been a while since I read it, but iirc one of his examples is of fellow captives telling themselves they'll be free before the new year, then the new year comes, still not free, and those would be the first ones to go (your "giving up"). But the alternative I never took as "resisting" - but "purpose." Frankl's own purpose being the study of people under such extreme conditions, but his point (again, iirc) being that having that indefinite, daily, purpose is what keeps people alive and brings meaning. Now, granted, it's been a while since I read it, but can you provide some color to this notion of "resisting" ? It'd be interesting if you took something completely different away from it (or if I remember it incorrectly and should be corrected.)
    - unmole 5y ago
      Frankl suggests that the people who perished in Nazi concentration camps could have survived if they had a better attitude. This is intellectually dishonest and morally repugnant. It is akin to suggesting that people who suffer from depression should just try not being sad, only much much worse. I will hazard a guess and say that nothing you have seen played out time and time again compares to the horrors of the Holocaust.
Gatsky 5y ago
And another from The Magus by John Fowles: "...cynicism masks a failure to cope - an impotence, in short; and that to despise all effort is the greatest effort of all."
- crdrost 5y ago
  A Nana Grizol song concludes with the line, Cynicism isn't wisdom It's a lazy way to say that you've been burned. Seems, if anything, you'd be less certain After everything you've ever learned.
cristoperb 5y ago
> The point of this story is not that cynics were wrong but that one never would have survived his ordeal It's interesting you'd use that story to make your point because about 2,000 years earlier Diogenes, the founder of Cynicism, was supposedly captured by pirates on the Mediterranean and sold into slavery. Not only did he survive but the man who purchased him was so impressed that he appointed him to run his household and tutor his children. https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Lives_of_the_Eminent_Philosophers/Book_VI#Diogenes https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Lives_of_the_Eminent_Philosop...
- evrydayhustling 5y ago
  Amazing! Thanks.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- estaseuropano 5y ago
  But cynicism the philosophy is not the same as holding a cynical mindset all day.
  - marginalia_nu 5y ago
    Leading upper-case Cynic philosophers exhibited a lot of behavior that might be called lower-case cynical today. A criticism that is as old as Diogenes (at least Laertius) is that they were essentially a cult of edgelords. They pretended not to care what people thought, but it was just an act, at the same time it was really important to them that people around them knew how little they cared through all the shockingly (lower case) cynical things they said and did. DL has Plato accuse Diogenes of this directly. All this is reducing a philosophy to a trope, but it's not an entirely unfair accusation either. Speaking of which, a bizarre and entertaining piece of history is Lucian's extremely hostile biography of Peregrinus Proteus.
    - bambax 5y ago
      If Diogenes was doing an act he was really into it. He famously told Alexander the Great to fuck off and stop blocking the light (which leads me to think that the ultimate "fuck you money" is to have no money at all, and not want any). He would also walk around the market and masturbate in public, which the Athenians found disgraceful. When challenged about this he would reply: how happy would we be if we were able to suppress hunger simply by rubbing our belly. I really love this character.
eprparadox 5y ago
loved to learn this quote and story, and love your take on its point!
DeathArrow 5y ago
>Another good quote for the OP is Miguel De Cervantes, author if Don Quixote: "there is madness in too much sanity, and the greatest madness of all is to see things as they are instead of as they should be". I admire heroes but I don't want to be one. I rather live a happy life than be another sad story who inspires people.
roenxi 5y ago
> In a world fit for cynics, you have to be ready for things to go right if you want to escape. That is open to challenge - it might be that cynics have an advantage because they are better at biding their time until an opportunity arises. And are less likely to be demoralised because they are used to dealing with the general difficulty of it all. It isn't like Cervantes had a fundamentally optimistic viewpoint. Don Quixote, as a great book, appeals to the views of cynics just as much as anyone else.
Scarblac 5y ago
That quote reminds me of the song _Bright Horses_, by Nick Cave (who lost his son to a tragic accident some years before). "We're all so sick and tired of seeing things as they are / Horses are just horses and their manes aren't full of fire / The fields are just fields, and there ain't no Lord" and later "Oh, oh, oh, well, this world is plain to see / It don't mean we can't believe in something, and anyway / My baby's coming back now on the next train / I can hear the whistle blowing, I can hear the mighty roar / I can hear the horses prancing in the pastures of the Lord"
hef19898 5y ago
True. I do like so when people aren't loosing their grasp with reality over looking at how things should be.

peoplefromibiza 5y ago

a cynic would have probably avoided the duel and lived a less turbulent life. p.s. I don't think Don Quixote is a great example of optimism...

jean_valje4n 5y ago

And then there was Caesar who promised the pirates who captured him that he would be back. And he did come back for them. I suppose his ending wasn't the greatest, but Dante placed his betrayers into a special place in literary hell.

jihadjihad 5y ago
I didn't know this story so I looked it up [0]. According to Plutarch, it's true: Caesar was captured by pirates in his twenties, and was insulted by their lowball ransom of 20 talents--he thought he was worth at least 50. He told the pirates they should up the ransom and that once it was delivered and he was freed, he'd have them all crucified. They thought it was a pretty good joke. He wasn't joking. Once free, he raised an army and a fleet and went back to the pirate's camp, capturing them and having them thrown in prison. Apparently he showed them mercy by having their throats cut before they were crucified, however. 0: https://www.britannica.com/story/the-time-julius-caesar-was-captured-by-pirates https://www.britannica.com/story/the-time-julius-caesar-was-...
- oblio 5y ago
  It's actually an extreme case of privilege. The pirates were probably some very poor commoners who turned to a life of crime, while he was a member of one of the most powerful political families in Ancient Rome. His upbringing was nothing like that of what were probably children the dirt poor farmers. He was lucky that no one snapped (I imagine some did but the thought of such a huge amount of money meant that everyone was kept in line) and the rest is just a bold and vengeful ultra rich, ultra privileged person getting their revenge.
  - xyzzy123 5y ago
    "Do you know who I am?" there's no woke reading where Julius Caesar can be rehabiliated for modern sensibilities. It's still unbelievably badass. I don't think you can retcon modern thinking on it, he was the actual thing and that was beautiful and terrible.
    - oblio 5y ago
      It is very bold, but my point is that commoners were naturally very afraid of nobles. On top of that, in this particular case they knew the financial value of capturing a noble, let alone the fact that this particular noble promised them even more money. As another commoner you'd probably get gutted like a fish if you'd try the same thing.
      - xyzzy123 5y ago
        It's true but being noble was its own thing with its own particular risks and costs. If you were to choose undeserving nobles across history IMHO J C would be among the worst sells.

mitko 5y ago

OP here, thanks a lot for sharing this enlightening story. Your last paragraph remind me also of the Viktor Frankl's "Man Search For Meaning" where the change in outlook was a difference between persevering and perishing in the camps.

unmole 5y ago
> Your last paragraph remind me also of the Viktor Frankl's "Man Search For Meaning" where the change in outlook was a difference between persevering and perishing in the camps. Which is complete and utter nonsense. Sure, it makes for nice advertising for Frankl's Logotherapy shtick but it's not an accurate picture of what happened in the camps.
- Daishiman 5y ago
  The fundamental point of people giving up vs resisting is the core thesis of Frankl and has rung true to every facet of life. Even if we are to assume his story is embellished, I have seen it played out time and time again.
  - quincunx 5y ago
    Can you elaborate a bit on "resisting"? Been a while since I read it, but iirc one of his examples is of fellow captives telling themselves they'll be free before the new year, then the new year comes, still not free, and those would be the first ones to go (your "giving up"). But the alternative I never took as "resisting" - but "purpose." Frankl's own purpose being the study of people under such extreme conditions, but his point (again, iirc) being that having that indefinite, daily, purpose is what keeps people alive and brings meaning. Now, granted, it's been a while since I read it, but can you provide some color to this notion of "resisting" ? It'd be interesting if you took something completely different away from it (or if I remember it incorrectly and should be corrected.)
  - unmole 5y ago
    Frankl suggests that the people who perished in Nazi concentration camps could have survived if they had a better attitude. This is intellectually dishonest and morally repugnant. It is akin to suggesting that people who suffer from depression should just try not being sad, only much much worse. I will hazard a guess and say that nothing you have seen played out time and time again compares to the horrors of the Holocaust.

Gatsky 5y ago

And another from The Magus by John Fowles: "...cynicism masks a failure to cope - an impotence, in short; and that to despise all effort is the greatest effort of all."

crdrost 5y ago
A Nana Grizol song concludes with the line, Cynicism isn't wisdom It's a lazy way to say that you've been burned. Seems, if anything, you'd be less certain After everything you've ever learned.

cristoperb 5y ago

> The point of this story is not that cynics were wrong but that one never would have survived his ordeal It's interesting you'd use that story to make your point because about 2,000 years earlier Diogenes, the founder of Cynicism, was supposedly captured by pirates on the Mediterranean and sold into slavery. Not only did he survive but the man who purchased him was so impressed that he appointed him to run his household and tutor his children. https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Lives_of_the_Eminent_Philosophers/Book_VI#Diogenes https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Lives_of_the_Eminent_Philosop...

evrydayhustling 5y ago
Amazing! Thanks.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
estaseuropano 5y ago
But cynicism the philosophy is not the same as holding a cynical mindset all day.
- marginalia_nu 5y ago
  Leading upper-case Cynic philosophers exhibited a lot of behavior that might be called lower-case cynical today. A criticism that is as old as Diogenes (at least Laertius) is that they were essentially a cult of edgelords. They pretended not to care what people thought, but it was just an act, at the same time it was really important to them that people around them knew how little they cared through all the shockingly (lower case) cynical things they said and did. DL has Plato accuse Diogenes of this directly. All this is reducing a philosophy to a trope, but it's not an entirely unfair accusation either. Speaking of which, a bizarre and entertaining piece of history is Lucian's extremely hostile biography of Peregrinus Proteus.
  - bambax 5y ago
    If Diogenes was doing an act he was really into it. He famously told Alexander the Great to fuck off and stop blocking the light (which leads me to think that the ultimate "fuck you money" is to have no money at all, and not want any). He would also walk around the market and masturbate in public, which the Athenians found disgraceful. When challenged about this he would reply: how happy would we be if we were able to suppress hunger simply by rubbing our belly. I really love this character.

eprparadox 5y ago

loved to learn this quote and story, and love your take on its point!

DeathArrow 5y ago

>Another good quote for the OP is Miguel De Cervantes, author if Don Quixote: "there is madness in too much sanity, and the greatest madness of all is to see things as they are instead of as they should be". I admire heroes but I don't want to be one. I rather live a happy life than be another sad story who inspires people.

roenxi 5y ago

> In a world fit for cynics, you have to be ready for things to go right if you want to escape. That is open to challenge - it might be that cynics have an advantage because they are better at biding their time until an opportunity arises. And are less likely to be demoralised because they are used to dealing with the general difficulty of it all. It isn't like Cervantes had a fundamentally optimistic viewpoint. Don Quixote, as a great book, appeals to the views of cynics just as much as anyone else.

Scarblac 5y ago

That quote reminds me of the song _Bright Horses_, by Nick Cave (who lost his son to a tragic accident some years before). "We're all so sick and tired of seeing things as they are / Horses are just horses and their manes aren't full of fire / The fields are just fields, and there ain't no Lord" and later "Oh, oh, oh, well, this world is plain to see / It don't mean we can't believe in something, and anyway / My baby's coming back now on the next train / I can hear the whistle blowing, I can hear the mighty roar / I can hear the horses prancing in the pastures of the Lord"

hef19898 5y ago

True. I do like so when people aren't loosing their grasp with reality over looking at how things should be.