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Something else to point out is that outdoor dining has positive externalities as well. Streets with lots of people on them sitting, watching, instagramming, are

Something else to point out is that outdoor dining has positive externalities as well. Streets with lots of people on them sitting, watching, instagramming, are safer and better observed than empty streets or streets with just cars. The permitting process is so focused on preventing the negative that there is no advocate of the positive.

raxxorrax 5y ago
Why security again? Fresh air would do it. People being afraid constantly are in need of some serious punching, they can be afraid of that for all I care. Policies of the last decades were constantly focused to cater to schizophrenic needs. Security isn't advocating something positive since it implies that you would need it.
- dougmwne 5y ago
  Which would you rather walk down as a single woman, a street empty other than a single man or a street full of sidewalk cafes and people? While the safety could be argued to be more perceived than real, (though I doubt that, it’s city street smarts 101 not to walk down dark empty alleys in the middle of the night), that increase in people’s comfort leads to the positives, healthy vibrant street life, pleasant utilization of public space, and walkability.
  - raxxorrax 5y ago
    Depends on location and country but I don't want to further the notion that it is unsafe for women to walk down a street alone because it is not the reality in most modern societies. Trying to accommodate irrational fears is often not helpful, it can even be abusive because you validate these fears. This is even a common mechanism to isolate people in abusive relationships. Don't go outside, there is danger in every dark alley! Some other women might just try emphasize their vulnerability to fish for a protector. How evil of them, but hard to be angry about that. If you always accommodate people for their comfort, you refuse them growth. As I said, it depends on the location. The locations that don't have the problem did not solve it by arbitrary security mechanisms.
wolverine876 5y ago
> The permitting process is so focused on preventing the negative that there is no advocate of the positive. How does it work?
- PaulDavisThe1st 5y ago
  It works that way because we have encoded agreed upon negatives into law and/or regulations. By contrast, the positives are still highly subjective and not broadly agreed upon. So the actual process is dominated by "Does the project avoid X?", "Does the project ensure that Y cannot happen?", "Will the project ever exceed limit Z?" rather than "Does the project bring <positive-good> to its location?", because people have not yet agreed upon a clear definition of <positive-good> things. In contrast, the stuff to avoid makes itself known, and the stuff we can mostly agree on becomes part of our civic codes.
  - cma 5y ago
    Related, the law usually compensates for government "takings" but doesn't work in reverse, except in a few places: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Value_capture https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Value_capture

raxxorrax 5y ago

Why security again? Fresh air would do it. People being afraid constantly are in need of some serious punching, they can be afraid of that for all I care. Policies of the last decades were constantly focused to cater to schizophrenic needs. Security isn't advocating something positive since it implies that you would need it.

dougmwne 5y ago
Which would you rather walk down as a single woman, a street empty other than a single man or a street full of sidewalk cafes and people? While the safety could be argued to be more perceived than real, (though I doubt that, it’s city street smarts 101 not to walk down dark empty alleys in the middle of the night), that increase in people’s comfort leads to the positives, healthy vibrant street life, pleasant utilization of public space, and walkability.
- raxxorrax 5y ago
  Depends on location and country but I don't want to further the notion that it is unsafe for women to walk down a street alone because it is not the reality in most modern societies. Trying to accommodate irrational fears is often not helpful, it can even be abusive because you validate these fears. This is even a common mechanism to isolate people in abusive relationships. Don't go outside, there is danger in every dark alley! Some other women might just try emphasize their vulnerability to fish for a protector. How evil of them, but hard to be angry about that. If you always accommodate people for their comfort, you refuse them growth. As I said, it depends on the location. The locations that don't have the problem did not solve it by arbitrary security mechanisms.

wolverine876 5y ago

> The permitting process is so focused on preventing the negative that there is no advocate of the positive. How does it work?

PaulDavisThe1st 5y ago
It works that way because we have encoded agreed upon negatives into law and/or regulations. By contrast, the positives are still highly subjective and not broadly agreed upon. So the actual process is dominated by "Does the project avoid X?", "Does the project ensure that Y cannot happen?", "Will the project ever exceed limit Z?" rather than "Does the project bring <positive-good> to its location?", because people have not yet agreed upon a clear definition of <positive-good> things. In contrast, the stuff to avoid makes itself known, and the stuff we can mostly agree on becomes part of our civic codes.
- cma 5y ago
  Related, the law usually compensates for government "takings" but doesn't work in reverse, except in a few places: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Value_capture https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Value_capture