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The last 40 years of UX research has given us the iPhone that my mom learned how to use within a couple hours. > still attractive I don't think many people ou

by dntrkv 5y ago

The last 40 years of UX research has given us the iPhone that my mom learned how to use within a couple hours. > still attractive I don't think many people outside of the "Everything New Sucks" crowd here on HN would agree there.

PostThisTooFast 5y ago
Based on what? There has been a shitload of regression in GUIs since. The idiotic "flat" UI fad, which is thankfully starting to recede, is a great example. We don't need ridiculous "skeuomorphism," but highlights and shadows on buttons (for example) tell everyone what the state of those buttons is at a glance.
flenserboy 5y ago
That's only for a certain degree of "use", one most users sadly don't (or can't) get past. Too much good from the past has been buried in the name of making it "easy" for people to do basic things; getting to the really useful things is becoming either a hoop-jumping exercise or no longer allowed.
jrm4 5y ago
Sure, but I'd say the problem is it also left us with the idea that "because Mom's iPhone is so popular, everything, no matter how complex, should look and feel like that," leaving out e.g. a great deal of useful complexity.
- kaba0 5y ago
  I think complexity doesn’t have to be exposed by default on the UI. I’m not an apple fan, but I think ios finds a great balance between not having buttons for every single command (though behind menus it would be ok), yet still exposing it with some niche tricks you have to learn. For example touching the upper left corner’s clock will scroll up, which won’t be discovered by my mum but I can use it.
  - subinsebastien 5y ago
    I used to call myself an expert iOS user and I didn’t knew this clock trick. I think I’m no more an expert.
  - jolux 5y ago
    It’s not just touching the clock, it’s touching the top edge of the screen.
  - wilkommen 5y ago
    Nice one, I didn't know that trick.
  - jrm4 5y ago
    You, in passing, nailed exactly what's wrong with Apple's way of doing UI. "Niche tricks you have to learn?" That's ridiculous. It's perfectly fine to do a great default UI that most people like without any adjustment -- but it's preposterous that there's no "go in and change just about whatever you want how you want (even if that option is in the way back)." This is why I've been hardcore Linux for quite some time.
    - jolux 5y ago
      I didn’t think this was niche, I’m pretty sure this has been an iPhone feature since day 1. I used to trigger it by mistake on the small screens. It’s also not really a critical gesture, it’s a power user feature like keyboard shortcuts on a desktop system. It’s there if you need it but you can also grab the scroll bar and drag it to the top to do the same thing. > This is why I've been hardcore Linux for quite some time. Good thing Linux has no niche tricks that have to be learned to use it. I kid, I love Linux, but this is a weird criticism to have of iOS which, interface wise, is far simpler than any Linux distro I’ve ever used.
      - jrm4 5y ago
        Someone said it much better way up above but -- yes, Apple has "niche tricks that are hard to even know about, because Apple actively hides things from you and secretly changes things without telling you." Linux is "Yep, this isn't easy, but it's generally well documented and talked about. It may take some work to get there, but it won't be mysterious and unexpected like Apple."
hulitu 5y ago
Because it is so limited. Why teach the grandma something instead of putting her neurons at rest ?
- alimov 5y ago
  Wonder what limits you are referring to
- askonomm 5y ago
  Found the person who wants to complicate their family members lives rather than help them have an easier time. I can, of course, install a shell-only Linux on my mom's computer as well, but I don't hate my mom.
- elzbardico 5y ago
  Because making things more complicated than they need to be is a sure way to ensure mental fitness. Source: None, ever.
yepthatsreality 5y ago
Anecdotally to this anecdote about iOS usability, my mom didn’t know about the control center or how to switch from wifi to cellular data. iOS isn’t easy to use because Apple markets itself as special and smart, instead it’s easy to use because we live in an age where people use computers and can guess at most things.
bartread 5y ago
I don't know that I entirely agree. It's a bit plain Jane - reminds me of CDE in the 90s - but it's not unattractive. I can see it for a more focussed work environment, maybe, but I could say the same of a terminal running fullscreen in a modern OS too. Or just unplugging.
jimbokun 5y ago
> The last 40 years of UX research has given us the iPhone Which is a direct descendant of the NextStep operating system.
0x0nyandesu 5y ago
I'm one of those people and I'm still scratching my head at this statement.
martinald 5y ago
I actually thought nextstep looked really ugly even back in the day. I really dislike the icon styles for some reason with so much grey. Looks really dated (and I can remember thinking that when it was out!).
- mromanuk 5y ago
  Yes, when I started using Linux in ‘99, several desktop UIs imitated this style. And it looked dated and ugly to me, compared to Windows 95, KDE and Gnome.
  - microtonal 5y ago
    KDE in 1999: https://czechia.kde.org/screenshots/images/medium/matthiase1.jpg https://czechia.kde.org/screenshots/images/medium/matthiase1... GNOME in 1999: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/94/GNOME_1.0_%281999%2C_03%29_with_GNOME_Panel_1_and_File_Manager.png https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/94/GNOME_1.... Of course, it's a matter of taste, but GNOME and KDE looked pretty bad back then. If I had the money, I'd definitely preferred NeXTSTEP. It's just so much cleaner and better thought-out. This is what it looked like in the early 90ies: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NeXTSTEP#/media/File:NeXTSTEP_desktop.png https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NeXTSTEP#/media/File:NeXTSTEP_... BTW, this is what NeXTSTEP looked like in 2000 (Mac OS X public beta): https://512pixels.net/projects/aqua-screenshot-library/mac-os-x-public-beta-kodiak/#jp-carousel-15269 https://512pixels.net/projects/aqua-screenshot-library/mac-o... I love NeXTSTEP, because it was awesome for its time, but I greatly prefer the latest macOS :).
    - daoismyname 5y ago
      > Of course, it's a matter of taste, but GNOME and KDE looked pretty bad back then. If I had the money, I'd definitely preferred NeXTSTEP can confirm That's the reason why I was using Window Maker back then
    - mromanuk 5y ago
      Yes, the Aqua treatment made it leap forward. I love that aged Gnome style :) Met too, I use MacOS and it's the best UI since 20 years ago.
pjerem 5y ago
I think comparing computers (as in the PC definition) and phones is exactly the issue. I’ve nothing against iPhone (I’m even writing this answer from one) but it’s designed for consumption, which is ok, for a phone. But I think that, step by step, we are loosing the good ol’ PC. And to me the good ol’ PC with its apparent complexity, is basically the last open and hackable (on multiple levels) technological tool left to the masses. PCs main feature is that it is an infinite-purpose tool. You can’t be an infinite-purpose tool without some apparent (but logical) complexity. Simplification of PCs UX is not even needed anymore since it’s being replaced by other devices for the people that just want to consume.
phendrenad2 5y ago
That's like saying 100 years of research into music theory gave us autotune. If people could have made a capacitive touchscreen handheld device in 1980, I'm sure the interface they would have arrived at would be remarkably similar.

by dntrkv 5y ago

PostThisTooFast 5y ago

Based on what? There has been a shitload of regression in GUIs since. The idiotic "flat" UI fad, which is thankfully starting to recede, is a great example. We don't need ridiculous "skeuomorphism," but highlights and shadows on buttons (for example) tell everyone what the state of those buttons is at a glance.

flenserboy 5y ago

That's only for a certain degree of "use", one most users sadly don't (or can't) get past. Too much good from the past has been buried in the name of making it "easy" for people to do basic things; getting to the really useful things is becoming either a hoop-jumping exercise or no longer allowed.

jrm4 5y ago

Sure, but I'd say the problem is it also left us with the idea that "because Mom's iPhone is so popular, everything, no matter how complex, should look and feel like that," leaving out e.g. a great deal of useful complexity.

kaba0 5y ago
I think complexity doesn’t have to be exposed by default on the UI. I’m not an apple fan, but I think ios finds a great balance between not having buttons for every single command (though behind menus it would be ok), yet still exposing it with some niche tricks you have to learn. For example touching the upper left corner’s clock will scroll up, which won’t be discovered by my mum but I can use it.
- subinsebastien 5y ago
  I used to call myself an expert iOS user and I didn’t knew this clock trick. I think I’m no more an expert.
- jolux 5y ago
  It’s not just touching the clock, it’s touching the top edge of the screen.
- wilkommen 5y ago
  Nice one, I didn't know that trick.
- jrm4 5y ago
  You, in passing, nailed exactly what's wrong with Apple's way of doing UI. "Niche tricks you have to learn?" That's ridiculous. It's perfectly fine to do a great default UI that most people like without any adjustment -- but it's preposterous that there's no "go in and change just about whatever you want how you want (even if that option is in the way back)." This is why I've been hardcore Linux for quite some time.
  - jolux 5y ago
    I didn’t think this was niche, I’m pretty sure this has been an iPhone feature since day 1. I used to trigger it by mistake on the small screens. It’s also not really a critical gesture, it’s a power user feature like keyboard shortcuts on a desktop system. It’s there if you need it but you can also grab the scroll bar and drag it to the top to do the same thing. > This is why I've been hardcore Linux for quite some time. Good thing Linux has no niche tricks that have to be learned to use it. I kid, I love Linux, but this is a weird criticism to have of iOS which, interface wise, is far simpler than any Linux distro I’ve ever used.
    - jrm4 5y ago
      Someone said it much better way up above but -- yes, Apple has "niche tricks that are hard to even know about, because Apple actively hides things from you and secretly changes things without telling you." Linux is "Yep, this isn't easy, but it's generally well documented and talked about. It may take some work to get there, but it won't be mysterious and unexpected like Apple."

hulitu 5y ago

Because it is so limited. Why teach the grandma something instead of putting her neurons at rest ?

alimov 5y ago
Wonder what limits you are referring to
askonomm 5y ago
Found the person who wants to complicate their family members lives rather than help them have an easier time. I can, of course, install a shell-only Linux on my mom's computer as well, but I don't hate my mom.
elzbardico 5y ago
Because making things more complicated than they need to be is a sure way to ensure mental fitness. Source: None, ever.

yepthatsreality 5y ago

Anecdotally to this anecdote about iOS usability, my mom didn’t know about the control center or how to switch from wifi to cellular data. iOS isn’t easy to use because Apple markets itself as special and smart, instead it’s easy to use because we live in an age where people use computers and can guess at most things.

bartread 5y ago

I don't know that I entirely agree. It's a bit plain Jane - reminds me of CDE in the 90s - but it's not unattractive. I can see it for a more focussed work environment, maybe, but I could say the same of a terminal running fullscreen in a modern OS too. Or just unplugging.

jimbokun 5y ago

> The last 40 years of UX research has given us the iPhone Which is a direct descendant of the NextStep operating system.

0x0nyandesu 5y ago

I'm one of those people and I'm still scratching my head at this statement.

martinald 5y ago

I actually thought nextstep looked really ugly even back in the day. I really dislike the icon styles for some reason with so much grey. Looks really dated (and I can remember thinking that when it was out!).

mromanuk 5y ago
Yes, when I started using Linux in ‘99, several desktop UIs imitated this style. And it looked dated and ugly to me, compared to Windows 95, KDE and Gnome.
- microtonal 5y ago
  KDE in 1999: https://czechia.kde.org/screenshots/images/medium/matthiase1.jpg https://czechia.kde.org/screenshots/images/medium/matthiase1... GNOME in 1999: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/94/GNOME_1.0_%281999%2C_03%29_with_GNOME_Panel_1_and_File_Manager.png https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/94/GNOME_1.... Of course, it's a matter of taste, but GNOME and KDE looked pretty bad back then. If I had the money, I'd definitely preferred NeXTSTEP. It's just so much cleaner and better thought-out. This is what it looked like in the early 90ies: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NeXTSTEP#/media/File:NeXTSTEP_desktop.png https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NeXTSTEP#/media/File:NeXTSTEP_... BTW, this is what NeXTSTEP looked like in 2000 (Mac OS X public beta): https://512pixels.net/projects/aqua-screenshot-library/mac-os-x-public-beta-kodiak/#jp-carousel-15269 https://512pixels.net/projects/aqua-screenshot-library/mac-o... I love NeXTSTEP, because it was awesome for its time, but I greatly prefer the latest macOS :).
  - daoismyname 5y ago
    > Of course, it's a matter of taste, but GNOME and KDE looked pretty bad back then. If I had the money, I'd definitely preferred NeXTSTEP can confirm That's the reason why I was using Window Maker back then
  - mromanuk 5y ago
    Yes, the Aqua treatment made it leap forward. I love that aged Gnome style :) Met too, I use MacOS and it's the best UI since 20 years ago.

pjerem 5y ago

I think comparing computers (as in the PC definition) and phones is exactly the issue. I’ve nothing against iPhone (I’m even writing this answer from one) but it’s designed for consumption, which is ok, for a phone. But I think that, step by step, we are loosing the good ol’ PC. And to me the good ol’ PC with its apparent complexity, is basically the last open and hackable (on multiple levels) technological tool left to the masses. PCs main feature is that it is an infinite-purpose tool. You can’t be an infinite-purpose tool without some apparent (but logical) complexity. Simplification of PCs UX is not even needed anymore since it’s being replaced by other devices for the people that just want to consume.

phendrenad2 5y ago

That's like saying 100 years of research into music theory gave us autotune. If people could have made a capacitive touchscreen handheld device in 1980, I'm sure the interface they would have arrived at would be remarkably similar.