5 ms·

That video at the end is interesting both for its content and for its delivery technology. And I do agree with him: If whether you get work or not decides on a

That video at the end is interesting both for its content and for its delivery technology. And I do agree with him: If whether you get work or not decides on a black box AI and your only support channel is another black box AI, that is pretty much a Kafka-esque nightmare. I'd guess we here on HN are the people best equipped to prevent the worst. So the next time you help someone automate their customer support, ask yourself: How would I feel if my well-being depended on this? Because for some poor soul, it might. Is there a clear fall-back in case the AI fails horrible? Because, you know, they always do. I once had my own support automation problem with Amazon, but luckily I had no stakes in it. They accidentally sent me someone else's parcel. So I filed a support request to inform them. They very politely apologized within a minute and informed me that they are sorry about my lost parcel and they'll send another one. So I got the same wrong parcel again. After waiting a while, I opened up the two parcels, each roughly 10x5x5 inches (25x10x10 cm) large. It was two single pencil erasers. But boy would I have been furious if I had received the same support quality for a lost high-value parcel... Also, I did ponder if it is OK for Amazon to waste my time if I'm not even their customer. I mean their support forms are difficult to reach, no matter why you need to contact them.

konschubert 5y ago
Any automated process always needs human fallback.
- syshum 5y ago
  Google, Amazon, and the rest clearly disagree
  - konschubert 5y ago
    Yes, and it's a kafkaesque nightmare. I try to avoid Google for this reason.
- Maf1 5y ago
  Or will we live in a world where the computer is always right.
  - ksdale 5y ago
    It's unreal the number of times a support person has said they "can't" do something because they don't have an option to do it in their user interface. And like, I understand that they don't have the authority to do it and it's not their fault, but someone at HQ basically decided that something was too expensive or inconvenient for the company and made it quite literally "not an option" and it just becomes a law of the universe that the customer can't get that remedy.
- the_snooze 5y ago
  Or else what? It's not like companies lose revenue or reputation for relying on cheap frustrating automation. If anything, it's in their best interests to keep doing so (i.e., to dissuade people from unsubscribing or complaining).
  - konschubert 5y ago
    Or else we the people make it law.
C19is20 5y ago
I'm rather amazed people purchase single erasers from amazon.
durnygbur 5y ago
> So I got the same wrong parcel again. After waiting a while, I opened up the two parcels, each roughly 10x5x5 inches (25x10x10 cm) large. It was two single pencil erasers. The monstrosites which reach this scale always amaze me. In case of individuals, when sending an item the main concern is packaging, shipping costs and time. Amazon and others? They just furiously and repeatedly ship oversized boxes filled mostly with fillers, while eco-shaming the customer.
bigodbiel 5y ago
The irony is that it’s middle management that will be the first to be laid off. What globalization did for blue collar, management automation will do with middle management. Making this a “workers’ issue” won’t lead to anything, specially when it’s gig economy workers. Obviously these AI will make their way to non-gig economy sector, and from there spread like wildfire. This will only exacerbate socio-economic inequalities to a point of no return (revolution of the precariat aside) Creepy how it’s all too similar to the short story Manna[1] (substituting fast food for gig economy)
jevoten 5y ago
> I'd guess we here on HN are the people best equipped to prevent the worst. Best positioned, but how well equipped are you? Are you organized enough to collectively refuse such requests, or will you fall into the "If I don't do it someone else will" trap?
- inter_netuser 5y ago
  why is that a trap? the "trap" seems to be instead the stable equilibrium state.
  - pessimizer 5y ago
    It's only a trap if you consider doing things for money that you, yourself, think are bad things, as a bad thing.
- spaetzleesser 5y ago
  You often don’t even know how your tools will be used eventually. Most technology is pretty neutral. How it’s being applied defines whether it’s positive or negative.
- goodpoint 5y ago
  > Best positioned, but how well equipped are you? More importantly: how willing? The HN crowd is known for workshipping tech companies.
raxxorrax 5y ago
I firmly state my disapproval to engineers working on such systems. Doesn't really work, you always find someone that prostitutes himself. Production surveillance can be essential for quality control, but you don't need individual surveillance for that and line managers are better at evaluating people. It is mostly useless managers that want to show of a nice Excel sheet.
spaetzleesser 5y ago
“I'd guess we here on HN are the people best equipped to prevent the worst. So the next time you help someone automate their customer support, ask yourself: How would I feel if my well-being depended on this? Because for some poor soul, it might. Is there a clear fall-back in case the AI fails horrible? Because, you know, they always do.” I don’t think we are that well equipped to prevent the worst. Maybe some entrepreneurs are but most engineers develop tools that can be used for good and bad. I think automation provides enormous benefits to society and we should keep pursuing it. To make sure it doesn’t end up with an abusive system is a political problem and should be addressed by rules and laws. In the last few decades the mantra was that the more money the psychopaths can make the better for society and screw the victims. That has to change. Society overall suffers if we have a few billionaires lording over the working masses. I am pretty hopeful that we can create systems that balance technological progress with concerns of social welfare. We have made big progress with environmental regulation and I hope we will do the same in other areas.
PragmaticPulp 5y ago
> I'd guess we here on HN are the people best equipped to prevent the worst. I agree that individuals should be conscious of which companies they support through their labor and/or spending habits. But I also think that HN overestimates the ability for single engineers to upend the goals of an entire organization. In the real world, if a company wants to automate anything and they’re paying well, there will be a line of engineers out the door applying to get it done. > So the next time you help someone automate their customer support I think this strikes at a false dichotomy that occurs frequently in these conversations: There’s an idea that if we simply removed the automated solutions then companies would be forced to replace them with the idealized solutions that we want. In practice, companies know very well that automated customer support and similar solutions aren’t comparable to having a well-paid, highly-trained person pick up the phone. But they weren’t going to pay for the expensive solution anyway. And the real driving factor isn’t just the companies, it’s the customers. If given the choice between two identical products where the only difference is automated versus human customer support (and associated higher price for human customer support), the majority of customers will choose the cheaper option every time. There are a few people who will proudly pay more for the better CS, but they are a tiny minority. Overall, customers want the cheaper option even if it comes with tradeoffs, and they will vote with their wallets.
- milkytron 5y ago
  > I agree that individuals should be conscious of which companies they support through their labor and/or spending habits. Agreed, but this is a lot of work. After doing it myself, I find that the options are almost always choose the least evil, choose something expensive, or don't buy that thing at all. Choosing something expensive is a sacrifice I'm willing to make to support a company I believe is doing good. The hard part becomes not buying anything at all when there are no good choices. When I had a car, filling it up with gas felt like a crime against humanity's future.
  - Mezzie 5y ago
    I feel similarly, and recently I've been focusing on acquiring tools that enable me to disengage from our rotting culture by making things for myself. Of course not everything can be done, but a lot can be, especially if you start letting other people use the tools. Instead of fast fashion, I'm getting a sewing machine and fabric and just letting several people use it in return for making me clothes (I have money, they have time). Likewise, I'm investing in knitting/crocheting stuff and lending it out. Instead of plastic doohickies, I'm getting a 3D printer: What I make may be cheap crap on par with what I'd get at Walmart, but at least I won't be exploiting or enslaving anyone. Also buying used and repairing is an option. Basically I like to ask myself 'will this help me need less from big corporations?' before I buy something. Not that small business is inherently more moral, but it's easier to hold to account as an individual consumer. I can actually sue/raise enough of a ruckus to put a local business out of business if they hurt me, whereas Amazon doesn't care.
kwhitefoot 5y ago
I think Amazon support forms are difficult to reach by design. It helps keep the traffic down. They are simply not at all interested in people who are not customers, and not especially interested in those who are. There was a time when I got a lot of email from Amazon about things that someone else had purchased. How my email address became associated with their account I have no idea. I tried to notify Amazon but there just wasn't any proper way to do it and after sending an email or two I just gave up. It was more than six months later that I stopped getting such email
6gvONxR4sf7o 5y ago
> So the next time you help someone automate their customer support… In my experience people working on these things are well intentioned. So it comes down to a need to shift priorities. Maybe you need to launch something now, and the PM tries to make you delay some important thing for the next release, launching without it at first. That’s the kind of thing we need to change. No more promises of “We are working to make this better” while launching without crucial pieces first. We’re used to making that kind of choice when it’s not people’s livelihoods and working conditions at stake, and we have to make those choices differently when the stakes are people.
sokoloff 5y ago
The support links are two clicks away in the footer. “Customer Service” : “Get help with something else” Or if it was your order, you could nav through “customer service” and then click on the order. Amazon may have some issues, but having a hard time reaching A2Z care isn’t one of them IMO.

konschubert 5y ago

Any automated process always needs human fallback.

syshum 5y ago
Google, Amazon, and the rest clearly disagree
- konschubert 5y ago
  Yes, and it's a kafkaesque nightmare. I try to avoid Google for this reason.
Maf1 5y ago
Or will we live in a world where the computer is always right.
- ksdale 5y ago
  It's unreal the number of times a support person has said they "can't" do something because they don't have an option to do it in their user interface. And like, I understand that they don't have the authority to do it and it's not their fault, but someone at HQ basically decided that something was too expensive or inconvenient for the company and made it quite literally "not an option" and it just becomes a law of the universe that the customer can't get that remedy.
the_snooze 5y ago
Or else what? It's not like companies lose revenue or reputation for relying on cheap frustrating automation. If anything, it's in their best interests to keep doing so (i.e., to dissuade people from unsubscribing or complaining).
- konschubert 5y ago
  Or else we the people make it law.

C19is20 5y ago

I'm rather amazed people purchase single erasers from amazon.

durnygbur 5y ago

> So I got the same wrong parcel again. After waiting a while, I opened up the two parcels, each roughly 10x5x5 inches (25x10x10 cm) large. It was two single pencil erasers. The monstrosites which reach this scale always amaze me. In case of individuals, when sending an item the main concern is packaging, shipping costs and time. Amazon and others? They just furiously and repeatedly ship oversized boxes filled mostly with fillers, while eco-shaming the customer.

bigodbiel 5y ago

The irony is that it’s middle management that will be the first to be laid off. What globalization did for blue collar, management automation will do with middle management. Making this a “workers’ issue” won’t lead to anything, specially when it’s gig economy workers. Obviously these AI will make their way to non-gig economy sector, and from there spread like wildfire. This will only exacerbate socio-economic inequalities to a point of no return (revolution of the precariat aside) Creepy how it’s all too similar to the short story Manna[1] (substituting fast food for gig economy)

jevoten 5y ago

> I'd guess we here on HN are the people best equipped to prevent the worst. Best positioned, but how well equipped are you? Are you organized enough to collectively refuse such requests, or will you fall into the "If I don't do it someone else will" trap?

inter_netuser 5y ago
why is that a trap? the "trap" seems to be instead the stable equilibrium state.
- pessimizer 5y ago
  It's only a trap if you consider doing things for money that you, yourself, think are bad things, as a bad thing.
spaetzleesser 5y ago
You often don’t even know how your tools will be used eventually. Most technology is pretty neutral. How it’s being applied defines whether it’s positive or negative.
goodpoint 5y ago
> Best positioned, but how well equipped are you? More importantly: how willing? The HN crowd is known for workshipping tech companies.

raxxorrax 5y ago

I firmly state my disapproval to engineers working on such systems. Doesn't really work, you always find someone that prostitutes himself. Production surveillance can be essential for quality control, but you don't need individual surveillance for that and line managers are better at evaluating people. It is mostly useless managers that want to show of a nice Excel sheet.

spaetzleesser 5y ago

“I'd guess we here on HN are the people best equipped to prevent the worst. So the next time you help someone automate their customer support, ask yourself: How would I feel if my well-being depended on this? Because for some poor soul, it might. Is there a clear fall-back in case the AI fails horrible? Because, you know, they always do.” I don’t think we are that well equipped to prevent the worst. Maybe some entrepreneurs are but most engineers develop tools that can be used for good and bad. I think automation provides enormous benefits to society and we should keep pursuing it. To make sure it doesn’t end up with an abusive system is a political problem and should be addressed by rules and laws. In the last few decades the mantra was that the more money the psychopaths can make the better for society and screw the victims. That has to change. Society overall suffers if we have a few billionaires lording over the working masses. I am pretty hopeful that we can create systems that balance technological progress with concerns of social welfare. We have made big progress with environmental regulation and I hope we will do the same in other areas.

PragmaticPulp 5y ago

> I'd guess we here on HN are the people best equipped to prevent the worst. I agree that individuals should be conscious of which companies they support through their labor and/or spending habits. But I also think that HN overestimates the ability for single engineers to upend the goals of an entire organization. In the real world, if a company wants to automate anything and they’re paying well, there will be a line of engineers out the door applying to get it done. > So the next time you help someone automate their customer support I think this strikes at a false dichotomy that occurs frequently in these conversations: There’s an idea that if we simply removed the automated solutions then companies would be forced to replace them with the idealized solutions that we want. In practice, companies know very well that automated customer support and similar solutions aren’t comparable to having a well-paid, highly-trained person pick up the phone. But they weren’t going to pay for the expensive solution anyway. And the real driving factor isn’t just the companies, it’s the customers. If given the choice between two identical products where the only difference is automated versus human customer support (and associated higher price for human customer support), the majority of customers will choose the cheaper option every time. There are a few people who will proudly pay more for the better CS, but they are a tiny minority. Overall, customers want the cheaper option even if it comes with tradeoffs, and they will vote with their wallets.

milkytron 5y ago
> I agree that individuals should be conscious of which companies they support through their labor and/or spending habits. Agreed, but this is a lot of work. After doing it myself, I find that the options are almost always choose the least evil, choose something expensive, or don't buy that thing at all. Choosing something expensive is a sacrifice I'm willing to make to support a company I believe is doing good. The hard part becomes not buying anything at all when there are no good choices. When I had a car, filling it up with gas felt like a crime against humanity's future.
- Mezzie 5y ago
  I feel similarly, and recently I've been focusing on acquiring tools that enable me to disengage from our rotting culture by making things for myself. Of course not everything can be done, but a lot can be, especially if you start letting other people use the tools. Instead of fast fashion, I'm getting a sewing machine and fabric and just letting several people use it in return for making me clothes (I have money, they have time). Likewise, I'm investing in knitting/crocheting stuff and lending it out. Instead of plastic doohickies, I'm getting a 3D printer: What I make may be cheap crap on par with what I'd get at Walmart, but at least I won't be exploiting or enslaving anyone. Also buying used and repairing is an option. Basically I like to ask myself 'will this help me need less from big corporations?' before I buy something. Not that small business is inherently more moral, but it's easier to hold to account as an individual consumer. I can actually sue/raise enough of a ruckus to put a local business out of business if they hurt me, whereas Amazon doesn't care.

kwhitefoot 5y ago

I think Amazon support forms are difficult to reach by design. It helps keep the traffic down. They are simply not at all interested in people who are not customers, and not especially interested in those who are. There was a time when I got a lot of email from Amazon about things that someone else had purchased. How my email address became associated with their account I have no idea. I tried to notify Amazon but there just wasn't any proper way to do it and after sending an email or two I just gave up. It was more than six months later that I stopped getting such email

6gvONxR4sf7o 5y ago

> So the next time you help someone automate their customer support… In my experience people working on these things are well intentioned. So it comes down to a need to shift priorities. Maybe you need to launch something now, and the PM tries to make you delay some important thing for the next release, launching without it at first. That’s the kind of thing we need to change. No more promises of “We are working to make this better” while launching without crucial pieces first. We’re used to making that kind of choice when it’s not people’s livelihoods and working conditions at stake, and we have to make those choices differently when the stakes are people.

sokoloff 5y ago

The support links are two clicks away in the footer. “Customer Service” : “Get help with something else” Or if it was your order, you could nav through “customer service” and then click on the order. Amazon may have some issues, but having a hard time reaching A2Z care isn’t one of them IMO.