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How to handle difficult clients

160 points by lbj 5y ago

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
th3iedkid 5y ago
Staying calm in a sweaty room requires a definitive level of detachment from what lead to the situation.Feeling of detachment can itself be a measure of , when it’s a good time to speak or act
- lbriner 5y ago
  I agree and I think the detachment comes when you try and make sure you aren't bringing in fear and insecurity into the room, whether you get that by self-help books or therapy is up to you. The way to deal with any difficult situation is to remain objective. The reason why some people are better than others is that some people are more able to take the emotion out of it. If a client shouts at you, it can get your back up, make you see the red mist and cause all kinds of problems. If, on the other hand, you can detach, then it becomes simply a matter of, "I'm sorry but I am unable to work for someone who shouts at people to get things done." Sometimes you have to suppress the justice we feel, "How dare you speak to me like that..." and just keep it as their problem. Same thing with bills that aren't paid, you don't carry on working because you feel like you need their affirmation, you say, "I'm sorry but I have stopped work until my last bill is paid. If you don't pay this soon, I am likely to accept other work"
NicoJuicy 5y ago
Detecting difficult clients early and not accepting them has been an absolute bliss for my side business.
- jamil7 5y ago
  Yeah one difficult client can wreak havoc on a freelance business. I would just give an outrageous quote if I wanted to get rid of them. Also why it’s important to have contracts.
  - baobabKoodaa 5y ago
    Why would you give an outrageous quote instead of just saying "no"? Do you want the "difficult client" to walk around to other prospects, warning them about how you tried to scam them with an outrageous price? Or are you hoping that they might accept your outrageous price, potentially leading to more outrage down the line when they realize that they overpaid?
    - DeathArrow 5y ago
      Maybe he just wants to bill them for their nastiness.
      - NicoJuicy 5y ago
        It's not about nastiness perse i think. Some of the most difficult clients are the richest or could be just freeloaders. Some require exceptional service and immediate response times and are willing to pay for it. Some want to use their behavior to pay less and blame it on you. It's very hard to filter out between those two.
    - Veen 5y ago
      Quoting high avoids awkward discussions and filters undesirable clients. It beats saying: "I don't want to work with you because you're an arsehole" or "I find your project excessively boring". As a freelance copywriter, I do it all the time. I get lots of offers from people and companies I don't want to work for, so I quote them an amount I suspect they won't want to pay. > Do you want the "difficult client" to walk around to other prospects, warning them about how you tried to scam them with an outrageous price? It's not a scam. Freelance contracts specify an agreement between me and a client. I can charge whatever I like and they can say no—everything is transparent. I'm not obligated to charge the industry average. In fact, I also vary my price depending on the client: a big tech company gets a bigger bill than a small local business, for example. > are you hoping that they might accept your outrageous price No. I just don't want to work with them. Also, it's not unusual for attractive clients to back out because they don't want to pay my normal rates—they're on the high end for the industries I work with. But that's not a scam either; I charge what the market will bear and I have no shortage of work (just the opposite).
- lbj 5y ago
  When I made the decision to only take on clients that I would love to work with, it pretty much changed my life.
abyssin 5y ago
"3 weeks is the realistic estimate, 2 weeks is our best case scenario. The original deadline is no longer realistic due to <changes in scope>|<missing materials>|<whatever>, but if you wish to launch on Friday we can do so by removing tasks from scope, would you prefer that solution" This reminds me what stuck with me after reading Shape Up, at a time when it was presented as the replacement for our Agile framework at work. What these methods have in common is a ritualized way to manage disappointment and help management to accept the loss of something they really wanted.
- bartread 5y ago
  Sort of, but that's not been the real value of Shape Up, at least not for us. We've found it's changed the conversation about what to build into one framed by investment and return, which has helped to take a lot of the emotion out of the discussion and decision-making process (and is also a much sounder basis for decision-making than, for example, how long things might take, or simply caving to the loudest voices[0]). So, yes, you could say it helps us manage disappointment but, whilst true, that's somewhat reductionist. What it's really enabled is an effective working relationship between our technology team and the other value-generating areas of the wider business. In turn, the primary value that's delivered is to ensure our development teams are working on projects that (are much more likely to) add real, strategic value as we build our platform and products, as opposed to just chasing individual client requirements - requirements that would deliver short-term cash, but which would tie us in knots and lead to dead ends that would destroy our ability to scale our business. (Of course, we don't do Shape Up in exactly the way described in the book: rather than cargo-culting, we've tailored the process to fit our business, which is a very different business to Basecamp. Happy to offer more detail if anyone is interested.) [0] It certainly gives us a way to manage and involve those voices though.
  - lukestevens 5y ago
    > (Of course, we don't do Shape Up in exactly the way described in the book: rather than cargo-culting, we've tailored the process to fit our business, which is a very different business to Basecamp. Happy to offer more detail if anyone is interested.) Sure, would love to hear more about your use of Shape Up. What have you found that has worked in your context that goes beyond the initial framework, for example? :)
desaiguddu 5y ago
I have been following this list from Jonathan Stark - Hourly Billing is Nuts. - Prospect says the project "shouldn't be too hard" or something to that effect. - Prospect has a strong idea about how long the project will take. - Prospect replies to email in a way that indicates they didn't really read (or perhaps comprehend) my message. - Prospect uses language that is too formal for me (or not formal enough). - Prospect seems obsessed with price before we've even discussed the project. - Prospect tells me that they have had bad experiences with consultants in the past. - Prospect seems to run their business in an overly reactive way (vs a proactive way) - Prospect refuses to engage in a Why Conversation on our initial sales call. - Prospect can't answer Why questions to my satisfaction (and won't/can't put me in touch with someone who can). - Prospect and I can't agree upon clear business goals for the project. - Prospect insists on what I believe to be unrealistic goals for the project. - Prospect insists on what I believe to be an unrealistic timeline for the project.
known 5y ago
Communicate in writing
dmje 5y ago
I've taken a different angle. I work in a non-aggressive sector. It's very niche - my sector is museum technology - but I'd imagine it holds true for other non-profits. Sounds weird that I can generalise like this but I've got 10+ years under the belt and I can say hand on heart that I've had maybe 3 "slightly difficult" clients in all this time. I've dipped out into the commercial world about once and almost instantly was bombarded with assholes, so retreated back into the place I know and love. My figuring is this: the people who work for them aren't there to get rich - salaries are pretty crappy - they're there because they're fascinated in wonderful things and histories. So that endless bullshit drive to focus entirely on making vast sums of money is largely (not entirely!) removed. On the whole the sector is thoughtful, kind, considered. As a result (or because of!), it's a sector with excellent diversity, lots of working mums, lots of older people, lots of enthusiasm, lots of drive. I'm never gunna get rich because museums aren't rich. But I do varied, fascinating work and the people I work with are almost always nice people. That to me is a huge thing and has positively affected my mental and working life.
- quickthrower2 5y ago
  Thanks for this, it is quite eye opening and id love to work for clients like that.
- taurath 5y ago
  OTOH, sometimes “passion” industries like say education are not only politicized to the extreme (given outcomes matter to so many people) but also are fundamentally on a shoestring budget, wanting as much as possible for as little as possible. This may be a function of governments being involved, but I struggle to think of more laid back industries. Entertainment has been a decent industry as well, but most of the “tech” is on the money driven side and less on the creative side.
  - melony 5y ago
    Because pursuing creative, passion industries often do not pay the bills (due to oversupply or labour gatekeeping). Game developers being exhibit A. For non software engineering examples, look at traditional engineering and STEM. Most aerospace engineers start out with dreams of human space travel, they will either end up building missiles and drones, pivot, or work for one of Elon's passion companies that are infamous for their work life balance. People enter life science with the intention of becoming doctors yet most will be stuck with debt and a dead end job after graduation with medicine being forever out of reach. Teaching and non-tenured/non-STEM academia pays so badly (not to mention the incredible gatekeeping to even get the job) that you will probably find more English graduates on OnlyFans than your local college's literature department. Writing JavaScript apps is hardly the most meaningful job but it is a safe career path with good growth for current roboticists or electrical engineering graduates. Software engineering may be materialistic and CRUD apps boring, but they are an easy, uncontroversial way to pay the bills for the massive pool of STEM (and occasional non-STEM) talent we have right now.
DeathArrow 5y ago
>After they had ranted for about 10 minutes while we just sat back and listened, my colleague started to speak - Very softly and slowly as he always did - "I understand your situation completely, there's so much pressure on you guys to perform and you expect the same kind of commitment from your contractors as you yourselves put in. This was a mistake on our part, and one that we have done a lot to ensure won't happen again" ... He kept going for 7 - 8 minutes after which we were all cuddled up in a ball under a warm blanket. Or that's how it felt anyway. Normally there's a vibe in a room that everyone takes part in, but it was very clear that while the room was boiling, he was in his own bubble of comfort - and he managed to pull everyone in to that bubble. I wonder how do you learn to do that.
- vb6sp6 5y ago
  Do it a few times and you will probably be pretty good at it
- jrumbut 5y ago
  One of the keys for me is to treat the interaction like a task, with a plan that you stick to, and to avoid being in the moment or thinking a lot about the big picture. Then you can just do the simple (but not easy) work of softly explaining a difficult situation. Like an actor in a movie. If you start to think about "if this goes to court I'll be ruined!" or "I can't believe I wasted 3 months of my life for these jerks" it becomes really difficult.
- lbj 5y ago
  It's just how he is a person. I learned it from observing him. Its not that difficult to copy if you can avoid taking part in the emotional stir.
02020202 5y ago
there is no such thing as difficult client when you bill upfront, per hour, not per project, and you never work a minute for free.
namelosw 5y ago
I worked for a consultancy. There was once we have to raise the price for the next year since the labor cost was booming in our country. We worked for the client for quite some years. He was an intelligent, elegant old man, who overcame a lot of difficulties and power struggles, then created the impressive business. It's of course a hard conversation to go through, but we didn't expect what we're facing. I'm glad I'm not there but here's what happened according to the participants: Before he was entering the meeting room, he was smiling and greeting team members in our office, just like any grandpa. During the meeting, our manager first did some small talk, then told him we have to raise the price. The next second he was outrageous, start cursing loudly and slamming things. Everybody was so scared, and the meeting was an immediate failure as he successfully low-balled us in the following rounds with nobody daring to object. The second he walked out of the meeting room, he was the same kind grandpa again, smiling and talking to the team members like nothing just happened. We then realized it was his tactic, but it's effective nonetheless. I rather not work with rude/manipulative people like that, but sometimes people just hide things too well, I guess I'll never know.
- hvidgaard 5y ago
  I think there is another possibility of knowing the value your product gives the customer compared to the competition. Stay firm on that unless the client is essential for your budget. Once a man like that learn that you are not easily manipulated, he either stops being unreasonable, or he doubles down and gladly spend more money on an similar or even inferior product. In the latter case you did not want his business long term anyway, unless you had to.
- progmetaldev 5y ago
  When I was in sales, I found that these older gentlemen try to strong arm you, but if you push back and don't back down, you generally earn their respect and they still go with you. They want someone to push back, while still giving them what they need. It seems to just be that generation.
- pc86 5y ago
  So shocking and disappointing that this childish behavior would be rewarded like this. I would have immediately lost all respect for my superiors for not firing him as a client and forcefully removing him from the premises.
koksik202 5y ago
With TCP reset
WelcomeShorty 5y ago
I once was thought a very different attitude towards "difficult clients": Embrace them. They are the ones who make you / your product better. Without the "difficult clients" you will not improve fast enough, you will become complacent and will be out performed by others. Now *ç%%/&% clients are a different issue, but I would not call these difficult.
- arcturus17 5y ago
  Eh, nearly no one defines difficult clients as “demanding and pushing the boundaries of technical possibility”. Pretty much everyone equates “difficult” with “demanding, but very poorly organized, uncommunicative, and lacking vision” (also often strapped for cash to boot). You really don’t gain anything from them.
- TuringTest 5y ago
  Those are difficult projects, not difficult clients. Totally different beasts.
hutzlibu 5y ago
"You've heard the term "Speak softly and carry a big stick". Well forget the stick. If there's any tension or negativity between you and a client, just speak softly. It will instinctively make them feel over-dramatic and they will gear down." I would say, there is a implicit stick with that: that you go away. Because someone who stays calm, when anger is rushing around, is someone you usually do not want to go away, but want to side with. So I am not sure how easy it is to follow that advice. You either are cool, because you have the confidence, or you are not. Just speaking softly, while being scared inside will probably not have the same effect. And my biggest difficulties with clients was lack of technical understanding on their side, combined with too much ego to show that. (Me showing the requested new feature): "You got that and are happy with it?" "Sure, sure" But no, they didn't and they messed up and it was supposed to be my fault. And in a way it maybe was, so I learned that communicating with tech illiterate is a very hard, but important skill.
frereubu 5y ago
We've sacked a few clients and it was a very liberating feeling. I highly recommend if it financials allow. We've also not taken on clients because there were warning signs which, while not as liberating because you weren't tied into them in the first place, is also very satisfying. If there's a client who looks like they might be difficult, but the project is really interesting, we may apply a variety of taxes, such as the "arsehole tax", "whingeing tax", and "ego massaging tax" that help us maintain calm if that person starts ranting.
bob1029 5y ago
I feel like I've been in the difficult client Olympics for the last 5 years. We've missed so many deadlines. By years. Had multiple rewrites, etc. For whatever reason these customers do not want to walk away from us. We think they actually like the product. It's ultimately just a scope problem with regard to "done". Large swathes of the project are completed and in production right now. Perhaps the key here is incremental delivery. Our management keeps coming back to that conversation. It is fantasy to pretend like you can predict the exact completion date of a product like ours. We started having the business value conversation with our customers and I think this is the best path to success. Keep the stakeholders focused on how much better things are getting for the business (i.e. on weekly status calls) and they will be less likely to get wrapped around a fence post over an arbitrary total project completion deadline. I think the magic spell kicked in when we let the clients tell us what priority order of incremental feature delivery they would prefer. I believe this gave them a sense of control, and we've been able to hit these smaller targets with ease. We did have conversations about firing some of our customers (i.e. over scope creep and bad requirements delivery), but we also know how important perception is with many of our clients (banking). The higher order effects of incremental delivery are what I am most interested in. It seems to calm everyone down a lot compared to the anxiety that builds as a big drop dead date looms. I can't imagine many software projects that couldn't be run in this manner. The quality of life of your team will certainly improve in my experience. It's almost like we could deal with any customer as long as everyone is willing to take it 1 small step at a time.
- beefield 5y ago
  > difficult client Olympics for the last 5 years. We've missed so many deadlines > many of our clients (banking). I have been a couple of times on the other side of the fence, feeling like difficult vendor olympics, same industry. Difficult, like in wondering why the f#ck we are having so massive performance problems with our parallel computation engine, only to one day realize that the vendor has decided that it is a Very Good Idea (tm) to send computation requests to the engine not parallel, but in series, and not asynchronously, but synchronously. Yep, lots of rewriting there. > For whatever reason these customers do not want to walk away from us. We think they actually like the product. Sorry to be blunt, but it is unlikely they like the product. In the best case they hope that the product will be okay one day. Internal politics are much more likely reason why they do not walk away. In that case someone would need to admit they made a mistake. As long as there is hope, they can just blame someone else (most likely you, that is:)
DnDGrognard 5y ago
Sack them is often a good choice
kriro 5y ago
Not strictly freelancing/clients but I think B2B is somewhat similar... The most insightful thing that the founder of a company I used to work for decided to do was...take on less customers and grow slow and steady. This won't work for everyone or in every industry but it worked really well for that company. In B2B you can really screw yourself over if you have to deal with toxic customers. Not only can it clog you up and bind lots of resources but it can also create a horrible working environment in your own company. There was usually an initial discussion with the potential customers and if something felt off, we wouldn't take them on. The mantra I've seen at many other companies seems to be "more customers = better" but for me adding more customers without thinking too much about who you deal with is similar to trying to fix software by pouring in more hours on a death march. So if you can afford it, always think long term not short term, don't be afraid to say no to customers and reject them outright and also don't be afraid to drop customers later. It's called customer relationship management for a reason. Try to think long and hard before starting a relationship. The second benefit of screening really hard is that you usually have very good relations with the customers that you do pick and keep. And they are usually quite happy and refer you to other potential customers. And those are usually high quality referrals because they tend to deal with people who won't turn out to be toxic, too.
- brk 5y ago
  In my industry/sector I led a sales team for a company that had a moderately successful exit, where a lot of similar companies ultimately failed. People often asked what the strategy was, and I said "I told a lot of customers NO". We stayed focused on a core market, and worked to avoid customers that seemed like they would be difficult and demand resources disproportionate to their spend with us.
wiz21c 5y ago
> but if you wish to launch on Friday we can do so by removing tasks from scope, would you prefer that solution" Then the customer says "unacceptable", then he calls my boss, then I'm in for hard time. Then I burn out. The thing is, all of that is fine and dandy as long as your management supports you. But if somehow your management is on the line too, then you will work during the week end.
- lbj 5y ago
  Sorry if this wasn't stated clear enough. The advice here is for freelancers, where you have no boss. If you are employed, then you need to get acceptance of possible outcomes from your management, before going into that talk.
cube00 5y ago
> If there's any tension or negativity between you and a client, just speak softly. It will instinctively make them feel over-dramatic and they will gear down. I've heard in some cases doing this in the face of red hot fury can make things worse and you shouldn't be afraid to suspend the meeting and reconvene after a short break. Of course that needs a manager with enough of a backbone not to throw their team under the bus by sitting back and letting the client tear shreds off them.
- lbj 5y ago
  Actually it will almost always make it worse for a couple of minutes, then everything cools down. In my experience at least.
ChrisMarshallNY 5y ago
This reminds me of the classic "ClientsFromHell.net" site[0]. This is a site of stories (some are probably fiction), of independent contractors (mostly designers), about difficult clients. [0] https://notalwaysright.com/tag/clients-from-hell/ https://notalwaysright.com/tag/clients-from-hell/
indigodaddy 5y ago
FYI to OP, this image on Zimtik’s pricing page has a comma in the wrong place on one of the revenue dashboard numbers. Small thing, but the details are important sometimes. https://zimtik.com/uploads/zimtik/images/3dashboardchr.png https://zimtik.com/uploads/zimtik/images/3dashboardchr.png
- lbj 5y ago
  Thanks alot, I'll get that looked at!
chiefalchemist 5y ago
Never enter into a relationship you're not willing to walk out on. Full stop. I've worked for a number of agencies over the last 10 to 15 years. The myth is you need to hit grand slams. Big clients. Big budgets. And tolerate anything. If that works, it's an outlier. What you need is a solid string of singles and doubles. Sure occasional triples and home runs are great. But as the stakes go up, often so do the unreasonable expectations and demands. One bad client can easily cost you more - time, energy, focus, team satisfaction, etc. - than that revenue. So what looks like big gains are in reality a loss. TL;DR - Success isn't about the clients you get, it's about the ones you avoid (or worst case fire).
gwbas1c 5y ago
The same can also go when choosing vendors. When I built my house, I interviewed three general contractors. One had signs similar to what the article mentioned, but I chose to work with them because they owned land in a desirable part of town. Oh, they were so difficult to work with! Another lesson: Never, ever call someone difficult to their face. (That's what my general contractor did to me.) That was often the tell that they didn't realize how difficult they were to work with.
epx 5y ago
I got depression and slipped for ~3 years because of a difficult client. Since then, I always carry the big stick and use it all the time, in professional and non-professional situations. Let's say I got allergic of BS, and better you hurt than me getting anaphylactic shock. To get angry when there is a mess-up is not to be difficult. Difficult clients are more like abusive partners. They create the situations that allow them to exert abuse e.g. ask you to drop other clients, then ask for an impossible deadline, then assign side tasks all the time while pretending they don't know this will impact the deadline, then withholding payment, while saying that $1M is just around the corner.
specialist 5y ago
> Master De-escalation: I once had a colleague who was very soft spoken, very low key. Listening to him speak on any topic could put you half to sleep - And I don't mean boring, just very calm. This is a technique taught to public administrators. Ever watch a townhall or council meeting? Elected politician is grilling some agency head. They'll respond in cool, soothing, calming tones. Pretty much like a hypnotherapist. Then they'll talk and talk. So long that by the time they wrap up, you've forgotten your question. Mostly running the clock. Once you're made aware of this technique, it can be maddening to watch. With great power comes great responsibility. De-escalation: good. Obfuscation: bad.
- BeFlatXIII 5y ago
  They're also used to being inundated with inane questions by said elected leaders. They run out the clock so they can't be asked more irrelevant questions that are clearly fishing for a sound clip of holding agencies accountable (for things that are explicitly outside of their jurisdiction).

160 points by lbj 5y ago

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

Staying calm in a sweaty room requires a definitive level of detachment from what lead to the situation.Feeling of detachment can itself be a measure of , when it’s a good time to speak or act

lbriner 5y ago
I agree and I think the detachment comes when you try and make sure you aren't bringing in fear and insecurity into the room, whether you get that by self-help books or therapy is up to you. The way to deal with any difficult situation is to remain objective. The reason why some people are better than others is that some people are more able to take the emotion out of it. If a client shouts at you, it can get your back up, make you see the red mist and cause all kinds of problems. If, on the other hand, you can detach, then it becomes simply a matter of, "I'm sorry but I am unable to work for someone who shouts at people to get things done." Sometimes you have to suppress the justice we feel, "How dare you speak to me like that..." and just keep it as their problem. Same thing with bills that aren't paid, you don't carry on working because you feel like you need their affirmation, you say, "I'm sorry but I have stopped work until my last bill is paid. If you don't pay this soon, I am likely to accept other work"

NicoJuicy 5y ago

Detecting difficult clients early and not accepting them has been an absolute bliss for my side business.

jamil7 5y ago
Yeah one difficult client can wreak havoc on a freelance business. I would just give an outrageous quote if I wanted to get rid of them. Also why it’s important to have contracts.
- baobabKoodaa 5y ago
  Why would you give an outrageous quote instead of just saying "no"? Do you want the "difficult client" to walk around to other prospects, warning them about how you tried to scam them with an outrageous price? Or are you hoping that they might accept your outrageous price, potentially leading to more outrage down the line when they realize that they overpaid?
  - DeathArrow 5y ago
    Maybe he just wants to bill them for their nastiness.
    - NicoJuicy 5y ago
      It's not about nastiness perse i think. Some of the most difficult clients are the richest or could be just freeloaders. Some require exceptional service and immediate response times and are willing to pay for it. Some want to use their behavior to pay less and blame it on you. It's very hard to filter out between those two.
  - Veen 5y ago
    Quoting high avoids awkward discussions and filters undesirable clients. It beats saying: "I don't want to work with you because you're an arsehole" or "I find your project excessively boring". As a freelance copywriter, I do it all the time. I get lots of offers from people and companies I don't want to work for, so I quote them an amount I suspect they won't want to pay. > Do you want the "difficult client" to walk around to other prospects, warning them about how you tried to scam them with an outrageous price? It's not a scam. Freelance contracts specify an agreement between me and a client. I can charge whatever I like and they can say no—everything is transparent. I'm not obligated to charge the industry average. In fact, I also vary my price depending on the client: a big tech company gets a bigger bill than a small local business, for example. > are you hoping that they might accept your outrageous price No. I just don't want to work with them. Also, it's not unusual for attractive clients to back out because they don't want to pay my normal rates—they're on the high end for the industries I work with. But that's not a scam either; I charge what the market will bear and I have no shortage of work (just the opposite).
lbj 5y ago
When I made the decision to only take on clients that I would love to work with, it pretty much changed my life.

abyssin 5y ago

"3 weeks is the realistic estimate, 2 weeks is our best case scenario. The original deadline is no longer realistic due to <changes in scope>|<missing materials>|<whatever>, but if you wish to launch on Friday we can do so by removing tasks from scope, would you prefer that solution" This reminds me what stuck with me after reading Shape Up, at a time when it was presented as the replacement for our Agile framework at work. What these methods have in common is a ritualized way to manage disappointment and help management to accept the loss of something they really wanted.

bartread 5y ago
Sort of, but that's not been the real value of Shape Up, at least not for us. We've found it's changed the conversation about what to build into one framed by investment and return, which has helped to take a lot of the emotion out of the discussion and decision-making process (and is also a much sounder basis for decision-making than, for example, how long things might take, or simply caving to the loudest voices[0]). So, yes, you could say it helps us manage disappointment but, whilst true, that's somewhat reductionist. What it's really enabled is an effective working relationship between our technology team and the other value-generating areas of the wider business. In turn, the primary value that's delivered is to ensure our development teams are working on projects that (are much more likely to) add real, strategic value as we build our platform and products, as opposed to just chasing individual client requirements - requirements that would deliver short-term cash, but which would tie us in knots and lead to dead ends that would destroy our ability to scale our business. (Of course, we don't do Shape Up in exactly the way described in the book: rather than cargo-culting, we've tailored the process to fit our business, which is a very different business to Basecamp. Happy to offer more detail if anyone is interested.) [0] It certainly gives us a way to manage and involve those voices though.
- lukestevens 5y ago
  > (Of course, we don't do Shape Up in exactly the way described in the book: rather than cargo-culting, we've tailored the process to fit our business, which is a very different business to Basecamp. Happy to offer more detail if anyone is interested.) Sure, would love to hear more about your use of Shape Up. What have you found that has worked in your context that goes beyond the initial framework, for example? :)

desaiguddu 5y ago

I have been following this list from Jonathan Stark - Hourly Billing is Nuts. - Prospect says the project "shouldn't be too hard" or something to that effect. - Prospect has a strong idea about how long the project will take. - Prospect replies to email in a way that indicates they didn't really read (or perhaps comprehend) my message. - Prospect uses language that is too formal for me (or not formal enough). - Prospect seems obsessed with price before we've even discussed the project. - Prospect tells me that they have had bad experiences with consultants in the past. - Prospect seems to run their business in an overly reactive way (vs a proactive way) - Prospect refuses to engage in a Why Conversation on our initial sales call. - Prospect can't answer Why questions to my satisfaction (and won't/can't put me in touch with someone who can). - Prospect and I can't agree upon clear business goals for the project. - Prospect insists on what I believe to be unrealistic goals for the project. - Prospect insists on what I believe to be an unrealistic timeline for the project.

known 5y ago

Communicate in writing

dmje 5y ago

I've taken a different angle. I work in a non-aggressive sector. It's very niche - my sector is museum technology - but I'd imagine it holds true for other non-profits. Sounds weird that I can generalise like this but I've got 10+ years under the belt and I can say hand on heart that I've had maybe 3 "slightly difficult" clients in all this time. I've dipped out into the commercial world about once and almost instantly was bombarded with assholes, so retreated back into the place I know and love. My figuring is this: the people who work for them aren't there to get rich - salaries are pretty crappy - they're there because they're fascinated in wonderful things and histories. So that endless bullshit drive to focus entirely on making vast sums of money is largely (not entirely!) removed. On the whole the sector is thoughtful, kind, considered. As a result (or because of!), it's a sector with excellent diversity, lots of working mums, lots of older people, lots of enthusiasm, lots of drive. I'm never gunna get rich because museums aren't rich. But I do varied, fascinating work and the people I work with are almost always nice people. That to me is a huge thing and has positively affected my mental and working life.

quickthrower2 5y ago
Thanks for this, it is quite eye opening and id love to work for clients like that.
taurath 5y ago
OTOH, sometimes “passion” industries like say education are not only politicized to the extreme (given outcomes matter to so many people) but also are fundamentally on a shoestring budget, wanting as much as possible for as little as possible. This may be a function of governments being involved, but I struggle to think of more laid back industries. Entertainment has been a decent industry as well, but most of the “tech” is on the money driven side and less on the creative side.
- melony 5y ago
  Because pursuing creative, passion industries often do not pay the bills (due to oversupply or labour gatekeeping). Game developers being exhibit A. For non software engineering examples, look at traditional engineering and STEM. Most aerospace engineers start out with dreams of human space travel, they will either end up building missiles and drones, pivot, or work for one of Elon's passion companies that are infamous for their work life balance. People enter life science with the intention of becoming doctors yet most will be stuck with debt and a dead end job after graduation with medicine being forever out of reach. Teaching and non-tenured/non-STEM academia pays so badly (not to mention the incredible gatekeeping to even get the job) that you will probably find more English graduates on OnlyFans than your local college's literature department. Writing JavaScript apps is hardly the most meaningful job but it is a safe career path with good growth for current roboticists or electrical engineering graduates. Software engineering may be materialistic and CRUD apps boring, but they are an easy, uncontroversial way to pay the bills for the massive pool of STEM (and occasional non-STEM) talent we have right now.

DeathArrow 5y ago

>After they had ranted for about 10 minutes while we just sat back and listened, my colleague started to speak - Very softly and slowly as he always did - "I understand your situation completely, there's so much pressure on you guys to perform and you expect the same kind of commitment from your contractors as you yourselves put in. This was a mistake on our part, and one that we have done a lot to ensure won't happen again" ... He kept going for 7 - 8 minutes after which we were all cuddled up in a ball under a warm blanket. Or that's how it felt anyway. Normally there's a vibe in a room that everyone takes part in, but it was very clear that while the room was boiling, he was in his own bubble of comfort - and he managed to pull everyone in to that bubble. I wonder how do you learn to do that.

vb6sp6 5y ago
Do it a few times and you will probably be pretty good at it
jrumbut 5y ago
One of the keys for me is to treat the interaction like a task, with a plan that you stick to, and to avoid being in the moment or thinking a lot about the big picture. Then you can just do the simple (but not easy) work of softly explaining a difficult situation. Like an actor in a movie. If you start to think about "if this goes to court I'll be ruined!" or "I can't believe I wasted 3 months of my life for these jerks" it becomes really difficult.
lbj 5y ago
It's just how he is a person. I learned it from observing him. Its not that difficult to copy if you can avoid taking part in the emotional stir.

02020202 5y ago

there is no such thing as difficult client when you bill upfront, per hour, not per project, and you never work a minute for free.

namelosw 5y ago

I worked for a consultancy. There was once we have to raise the price for the next year since the labor cost was booming in our country. We worked for the client for quite some years. He was an intelligent, elegant old man, who overcame a lot of difficulties and power struggles, then created the impressive business. It's of course a hard conversation to go through, but we didn't expect what we're facing. I'm glad I'm not there but here's what happened according to the participants: Before he was entering the meeting room, he was smiling and greeting team members in our office, just like any grandpa. During the meeting, our manager first did some small talk, then told him we have to raise the price. The next second he was outrageous, start cursing loudly and slamming things. Everybody was so scared, and the meeting was an immediate failure as he successfully low-balled us in the following rounds with nobody daring to object. The second he walked out of the meeting room, he was the same kind grandpa again, smiling and talking to the team members like nothing just happened. We then realized it was his tactic, but it's effective nonetheless. I rather not work with rude/manipulative people like that, but sometimes people just hide things too well, I guess I'll never know.

hvidgaard 5y ago
I think there is another possibility of knowing the value your product gives the customer compared to the competition. Stay firm on that unless the client is essential for your budget. Once a man like that learn that you are not easily manipulated, he either stops being unreasonable, or he doubles down and gladly spend more money on an similar or even inferior product. In the latter case you did not want his business long term anyway, unless you had to.
progmetaldev 5y ago
When I was in sales, I found that these older gentlemen try to strong arm you, but if you push back and don't back down, you generally earn their respect and they still go with you. They want someone to push back, while still giving them what they need. It seems to just be that generation.
pc86 5y ago
So shocking and disappointing that this childish behavior would be rewarded like this. I would have immediately lost all respect for my superiors for not firing him as a client and forcefully removing him from the premises.

koksik202 5y ago

With TCP reset

WelcomeShorty 5y ago

I once was thought a very different attitude towards "difficult clients": Embrace them. They are the ones who make you / your product better. Without the "difficult clients" you will not improve fast enough, you will become complacent and will be out performed by others. Now *ç%%/&% clients are a different issue, but I would not call these difficult.

arcturus17 5y ago
Eh, nearly no one defines difficult clients as “demanding and pushing the boundaries of technical possibility”. Pretty much everyone equates “difficult” with “demanding, but very poorly organized, uncommunicative, and lacking vision” (also often strapped for cash to boot). You really don’t gain anything from them.
TuringTest 5y ago
Those are difficult projects, not difficult clients. Totally different beasts.

hutzlibu 5y ago

"You've heard the term "Speak softly and carry a big stick". Well forget the stick. If there's any tension or negativity between you and a client, just speak softly. It will instinctively make them feel over-dramatic and they will gear down." I would say, there is a implicit stick with that: that you go away. Because someone who stays calm, when anger is rushing around, is someone you usually do not want to go away, but want to side with. So I am not sure how easy it is to follow that advice. You either are cool, because you have the confidence, or you are not. Just speaking softly, while being scared inside will probably not have the same effect. And my biggest difficulties with clients was lack of technical understanding on their side, combined with too much ego to show that. (Me showing the requested new feature): "You got that and are happy with it?" "Sure, sure" But no, they didn't and they messed up and it was supposed to be my fault. And in a way it maybe was, so I learned that communicating with tech illiterate is a very hard, but important skill.

frereubu 5y ago

We've sacked a few clients and it was a very liberating feeling. I highly recommend if it financials allow. We've also not taken on clients because there were warning signs which, while not as liberating because you weren't tied into them in the first place, is also very satisfying. If there's a client who looks like they might be difficult, but the project is really interesting, we may apply a variety of taxes, such as the "arsehole tax", "whingeing tax", and "ego massaging tax" that help us maintain calm if that person starts ranting.

bob1029 5y ago

I feel like I've been in the difficult client Olympics for the last 5 years. We've missed so many deadlines. By years. Had multiple rewrites, etc. For whatever reason these customers do not want to walk away from us. We think they actually like the product. It's ultimately just a scope problem with regard to "done". Large swathes of the project are completed and in production right now. Perhaps the key here is incremental delivery. Our management keeps coming back to that conversation. It is fantasy to pretend like you can predict the exact completion date of a product like ours. We started having the business value conversation with our customers and I think this is the best path to success. Keep the stakeholders focused on how much better things are getting for the business (i.e. on weekly status calls) and they will be less likely to get wrapped around a fence post over an arbitrary total project completion deadline. I think the magic spell kicked in when we let the clients tell us what priority order of incremental feature delivery they would prefer. I believe this gave them a sense of control, and we've been able to hit these smaller targets with ease. We did have conversations about firing some of our customers (i.e. over scope creep and bad requirements delivery), but we also know how important perception is with many of our clients (banking). The higher order effects of incremental delivery are what I am most interested in. It seems to calm everyone down a lot compared to the anxiety that builds as a big drop dead date looms. I can't imagine many software projects that couldn't be run in this manner. The quality of life of your team will certainly improve in my experience. It's almost like we could deal with any customer as long as everyone is willing to take it 1 small step at a time.

beefield 5y ago
> difficult client Olympics for the last 5 years. We've missed so many deadlines > many of our clients (banking). I have been a couple of times on the other side of the fence, feeling like difficult vendor olympics, same industry. Difficult, like in wondering why the f#ck we are having so massive performance problems with our parallel computation engine, only to one day realize that the vendor has decided that it is a Very Good Idea (tm) to send computation requests to the engine not parallel, but in series, and not asynchronously, but synchronously. Yep, lots of rewriting there. > For whatever reason these customers do not want to walk away from us. We think they actually like the product. Sorry to be blunt, but it is unlikely they like the product. In the best case they hope that the product will be okay one day. Internal politics are much more likely reason why they do not walk away. In that case someone would need to admit they made a mistake. As long as there is hope, they can just blame someone else (most likely you, that is:)

DnDGrognard 5y ago

Sack them is often a good choice

kriro 5y ago

Not strictly freelancing/clients but I think B2B is somewhat similar... The most insightful thing that the founder of a company I used to work for decided to do was...take on less customers and grow slow and steady. This won't work for everyone or in every industry but it worked really well for that company. In B2B you can really screw yourself over if you have to deal with toxic customers. Not only can it clog you up and bind lots of resources but it can also create a horrible working environment in your own company. There was usually an initial discussion with the potential customers and if something felt off, we wouldn't take them on. The mantra I've seen at many other companies seems to be "more customers = better" but for me adding more customers without thinking too much about who you deal with is similar to trying to fix software by pouring in more hours on a death march. So if you can afford it, always think long term not short term, don't be afraid to say no to customers and reject them outright and also don't be afraid to drop customers later. It's called customer relationship management for a reason. Try to think long and hard before starting a relationship. The second benefit of screening really hard is that you usually have very good relations with the customers that you do pick and keep. And they are usually quite happy and refer you to other potential customers. And those are usually high quality referrals because they tend to deal with people who won't turn out to be toxic, too.

brk 5y ago
In my industry/sector I led a sales team for a company that had a moderately successful exit, where a lot of similar companies ultimately failed. People often asked what the strategy was, and I said "I told a lot of customers NO". We stayed focused on a core market, and worked to avoid customers that seemed like they would be difficult and demand resources disproportionate to their spend with us.

wiz21c 5y ago

> but if you wish to launch on Friday we can do so by removing tasks from scope, would you prefer that solution" Then the customer says "unacceptable", then he calls my boss, then I'm in for hard time. Then I burn out. The thing is, all of that is fine and dandy as long as your management supports you. But if somehow your management is on the line too, then you will work during the week end.

lbj 5y ago
Sorry if this wasn't stated clear enough. The advice here is for freelancers, where you have no boss. If you are employed, then you need to get acceptance of possible outcomes from your management, before going into that talk.

cube00 5y ago

> If there's any tension or negativity between you and a client, just speak softly. It will instinctively make them feel over-dramatic and they will gear down. I've heard in some cases doing this in the face of red hot fury can make things worse and you shouldn't be afraid to suspend the meeting and reconvene after a short break. Of course that needs a manager with enough of a backbone not to throw their team under the bus by sitting back and letting the client tear shreds off them.

lbj 5y ago
Actually it will almost always make it worse for a couple of minutes, then everything cools down. In my experience at least.

ChrisMarshallNY 5y ago

This reminds me of the classic "ClientsFromHell.net" site[0]. This is a site of stories (some are probably fiction), of independent contractors (mostly designers), about difficult clients. [0] https://notalwaysright.com/tag/clients-from-hell/ https://notalwaysright.com/tag/clients-from-hell/

indigodaddy 5y ago

FYI to OP, this image on Zimtik’s pricing page has a comma in the wrong place on one of the revenue dashboard numbers. Small thing, but the details are important sometimes. https://zimtik.com/uploads/zimtik/images/3dashboardchr.png https://zimtik.com/uploads/zimtik/images/3dashboardchr.png

lbj 5y ago
Thanks alot, I'll get that looked at!

chiefalchemist 5y ago

Never enter into a relationship you're not willing to walk out on. Full stop. I've worked for a number of agencies over the last 10 to 15 years. The myth is you need to hit grand slams. Big clients. Big budgets. And tolerate anything. If that works, it's an outlier. What you need is a solid string of singles and doubles. Sure occasional triples and home runs are great. But as the stakes go up, often so do the unreasonable expectations and demands. One bad client can easily cost you more - time, energy, focus, team satisfaction, etc. - than that revenue. So what looks like big gains are in reality a loss. TL;DR - Success isn't about the clients you get, it's about the ones you avoid (or worst case fire).

gwbas1c 5y ago

The same can also go when choosing vendors. When I built my house, I interviewed three general contractors. One had signs similar to what the article mentioned, but I chose to work with them because they owned land in a desirable part of town. Oh, they were so difficult to work with! Another lesson: Never, ever call someone difficult to their face. (That's what my general contractor did to me.) That was often the tell that they didn't realize how difficult they were to work with.

epx 5y ago

I got depression and slipped for ~3 years because of a difficult client. Since then, I always carry the big stick and use it all the time, in professional and non-professional situations. Let's say I got allergic of BS, and better you hurt than me getting anaphylactic shock. To get angry when there is a mess-up is not to be difficult. Difficult clients are more like abusive partners. They create the situations that allow them to exert abuse e.g. ask you to drop other clients, then ask for an impossible deadline, then assign side tasks all the time while pretending they don't know this will impact the deadline, then withholding payment, while saying that $1M is just around the corner.

specialist 5y ago

> Master De-escalation: I once had a colleague who was very soft spoken, very low key. Listening to him speak on any topic could put you half to sleep - And I don't mean boring, just very calm. This is a technique taught to public administrators. Ever watch a townhall or council meeting? Elected politician is grilling some agency head. They'll respond in cool, soothing, calming tones. Pretty much like a hypnotherapist. Then they'll talk and talk. So long that by the time they wrap up, you've forgotten your question. Mostly running the clock. Once you're made aware of this technique, it can be maddening to watch. With great power comes great responsibility. De-escalation: good. Obfuscation: bad.

BeFlatXIII 5y ago
They're also used to being inundated with inane questions by said elected leaders. They run out the clock so they can't be asked more irrelevant questions that are clearly fishing for a sound clip of holding agencies accountable (for things that are explicitly outside of their jurisdiction).