7 ms·

The highest paid employees of every state are the football coaches, then basketball coaches. They're paid this much because they're worth it. Not only does foot

The highest paid employees of every state are the football coaches, then basketball coaches. They're paid this much because they're worth it. Not only does football bring in a huge amount of money with tv deals and tickets/concessions but they make students more likely to attend too. That causes the all important rankings to go up. They make alumni more likely to return to campus and therefore more likely to donate.

8note 5y ago
You'd think the players are similarly worth it.
- tengbretson 5y ago
  Ask the top talent in the country if they'd rather play for a team coached by Rich Rodriguez for 50k a year, or Nick Saban for free.
  - dsizzle 5y ago
    I feel like college coaches at good schools are probably overrated: players choose which team they play for, and school reputation is a major factor. Talent on pro teams on the other hand are much more equitable distributed due to the draft, making it easier to judge coaching talent. Also, $50k is a weird number to choose in your example. Presumably the best players would command much more than that.
JamesSwift 5y ago
Well, they are paid that much because that money is coming in and they sure as hell aren't going to give it to the athletes. So the coach is next in line. Things would look quite different if athletes were able to negotiate salary.
- ralph84 5y ago
  Indeed, in pro sports even average players earn more than their head coaches/managers.
  - JamesSwift 5y ago
    Right. I was interested about it so looked up both NBA and NFL. Both are ~3:1 difference between highest paid players and highest paid coaches.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
- philwelch 5y ago
  Coaches also make a much bigger difference in college sports, because the athletes only have four years of eligibility, and you're lucky to get that much. The best basketball players all leave college after 1-2 years (closer to 0-1 for the very best) while football players usually need more time to develop. The best coaches can build a system that different players can slot into year after year and also recruit the best prospects coming out of high school. Meanwhile in the professional leagues, you have a decent chance of holding onto the best players for much longer than 4 years.
  - JamesSwift 5y ago
    Well yes and no. I think college sports is much more athlete-centric because players still haven't reached the limit of their abilities. So you end up with very large disparities between the great players and the average players, and single great players are much more likely to be able to dominate the game.
    - philwelch 5y ago
      But from the perspective of an individual program, that’s only going to make a difference for a couple years at most. Being able to consistently recruit great players and set them up to succeed is more valuable.
almost_usual 5y ago
Nit: There are definitely states where basketball coaches are paid more than football coaches.
peter422 5y ago
Even the bad ones that are terrible and below replacement level are worth it? I don’t think so. Some coaches are “worth it”, many are not.
- nixgeek 5y ago
  But the "many are not" flies in the face of a market economy and the fact nobody is forced to pay this compensation. It's your opinion they aren't worth it and you aren't the person writing the check. You're certainly entitled to this opinion :) Arguably, success as a professional coach is substantially more objective and less subjective than many professions. Professional sports analyze everything. Statistics is huge both for the fans and the teams. Is the team winning? For colleges especially, you have annual turnover in student ranks so more in-and-out of players than NHL, NFL, NBA, etc etc. That's got to be tricky to manage. You have to attract talent to the institution and develop it when there. So the simple fact is these coaches are able to demand these packages (and get them!). Someone out there has to write the checks and believes the performance and outcomes justifies the cost, that they are "worth it".
  - anikan_vader 5y ago
    But the reason these coaches are able to get these salaries is because of policy decisions made by state governments. To some extent, voters have a civil duty to decide whether they agree with this policy, and vote accordingly. It's true that someone has to write their checks, but the point is that that someone is the state government, which is funded by our tax dollars. On the other hand, most state schools are getting less and less money from the state as American state governments turn away from funding education.
    - ryandrake 5y ago
      > But the reason these coaches are able to get these salaries is because of policy decisions made by state governments. To some extent, voters have a civil duty to decide whether they agree with this policy, and vote accordingly. Only to the most remote, infinitesimal extent, do I as a voter have any deciding power. I can’t think of a voting strategy that I, as someone who opposes education funding going to stadiums or sports, could employ to voice that opposition. No public servant on my State ballot controls coaches’ salaries or the allocation of university funds. I can’t connect the dots.
macinjosh 5y ago
Seems like scope creep for an educational institution to me.
- MattGaiser 5y ago
  More just an incredibly lucrative side business in a way that the main business can never be. Raising $10 million for a stadium is far easier than raising a $10 million endowment for a science lab. But when alumni come back for the football, you can hit them up for money for the science lab.
  - bumby 5y ago
    I think the issue is that many feel public institutions shouldn’t be run like a business in the first place. As an example, if many government services were run with the bottom line as the primary motive, many rural citizens would find they no longer receive those services
    - chrismcb 5y ago
      If money is involved, it should absolutely be run like a business. But just because it is run like a business doesn't mean the bottom line is the primary motive. And don't forget that the majority of a universities money is not government money.
      - bumby 5y ago
        What do you think the primary motive of a university should be and how would you measure it?
brightball 5y ago
Yep. I always chuckle when people are surprised by this stuff. Florida State was about to become an all girl school in the 1970s before Bobby Bowden saved their football program. Clemson’s applications skyrocketed in 1977 when they beat Georgia early in the year and run consistently higher any years in which the team is having success. Donations increase. Alumni come to games, get together, see their friends, show their kids around campus, tell stories. No matter what your major, the activities that we can all enjoy together bring us together.
- jgalt212 5y ago
  I doubt Greg Schiano has had anything but an extractive relationship with the state of New Jersey and its tax payers.
- bumby 5y ago
  The timeline is interesting, because it’s my understanding that the 1980s is when college tuition began rapidly increasing [1]. Granted, there’s many other factors like govt backed loans, but inflated coach salaries seems to coincide [2]. The 1980s seemed to mark the beginning of an era when college was run more as a business than a purely educationally minded institution. I’m not sure society is better off for it. [1] https://www.usatoday.com/story/college/2017/06/09/private-college-tuition-is-rising-faster-than-inflation-again/37432483/ https://www.usatoday.com/story/college/2017/06/09/private-co... [2] https://www.bannersociety.com/platform/amp/2019/8/15/20732192/coach-salaries-history-highest https://www.bannersociety.com/platform/amp/2019/8/15/2073219...
selimthegrim 5y ago
I think Steve Weinberg demanded to be paid at least as much as the football coach at UT Austin
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
varelse 5y ago
And yet back in the '90s the woman I was dating got two simultaneous fellowships from two separate sources completely legally. The university then invoked some sort of rule capping her compensation and took the rest.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
MisterBastahrd 5y ago
Another reason that this is possible is because these coaches are sort of state employees on a technicality. The funds are raised by boosters and paid through the athletic foundation associated with the university. Most of the largest universities have their entire athletic budgets funded through a combination of donations and revenue from live men's football and basketball games, both in-stadium and television money.
- tomcam 5y ago
  > The funds are raised by boosters and paid through the athletic foundation associated with the university. So they donate to the state general fund or something?
  - MisterBastahrd 5y ago
    The athletic foundations aren't completely separate entities, but they operate that way for the most part. They don't donate to the general fund, but many of the ones with higher revenue donate excess money back to the university. Usually, university presidents get involved with various administrative details or when hiring a new athletic director.
    - tomcam 5y ago
      But this page seems to indicate they are paid out of the state's general fund? I think? If they're paid by a foundation wouldn't that be a line item at the foundation? Not trying to be argumentative here. I'm actually interested in whether my taxes are being used to fund multimillion dollar coaches. Not appealing, even though I love football. But if it's paid through privately raised funds I don't care.
      - colinmhayes 5y ago
        Football coaches are technically because they work for public universities, but their salary is paid by boosters and revenue the program brings in. Football and basketball programs at almost all the power 5 schools make money when accounting for donations.
WalterBright 5y ago
Caltech in the 70's was notable for the average IQ of the football players being higher than their average weight. A season was considered triumphant if the team did better than 100% losses. I never went to a game, none of my friends did, and had no idea who the players were or when the games were. It was kinda nice not being at a football collage.
- lr1970 5y ago
  > Caltech in the 70's was notable for the average IQ of the football players being higher than their average weight. You forgot to mention that the weight should be expressed in kilograms. Otherwise, if expressed in pounds this would be a Mensa dream team :-)
- WalterBright 5y ago
  About 30 years ago or so, I was invited to a Superbowl party. I thought I'd be sociable and give it a try. The party was nice, and eventually someone asked me which team I was rooting for. I said the guys in the blue shirts. That didn't go over well at all.
- basedgod 5y ago
  there's no college football team in the world that averages less than 160lbs, and 160 iq average is impossible for a football team or any number you'd pick. don't make things up
  - mhh__ 5y ago
    kg perhaps?
  - WalterBright 5y ago
    You're right, but the joke about Caltech's team did not originate with me. It came from the press coverage of the team :-) Nevertheless, The average IQ at Caltech is somewhere around 130-135. My freshman weight was 136, when I graduated it was a bit over 140. I'm around 155 today. I was hardly the lightest student. Caltech wasn't picky about who got on the team, as not many wanted to. I'm also pretty sure that if Caltech had the ability to force students onto the team, they could have fielded one with an average IQ of 160. I knew many students that smart. I'd never met people like that before. They're amazing. Hal Finney was one. So yes, it was a joke. But the funny jokes are ones that have an element of truth to them.
gregwebs 5y ago
Football making lots of money is a myth because there are many hidden costs. A big one is the cost of the stadium and this comes out of a different budget (sometimes student fees). Not saying that there aren't some schools coming out ahead, just saying that modeling this out is a lot more complicated and often when this is done carefully by academics doing studies most programs that people think of as succesful are losing money. Similar with pro sports, often the cost of the hundred million dollar stadium, etc is not necessarily recouped.
- waynecochran 5y ago
  UW football, at least in the past, makes a ton of money. I assume all the other sports lose money. I attended UW in the Don James era so its been awhile.
- rectang 5y ago
  Classically, you couldn't count on local newspaper reporting about these costs either, because sports pages sold papers. One thing that makes me feel good about living in San Diego is that we've repeatedly told begging billionaires looking to grift their stadiums out of our city taxes to go fuck themselves.
- philwelch 5y ago
  https://magazine.washington.edu/feature/husky-stadium-renovation-gets-the-green-light/ https://magazine.washington.edu/feature/husky-stadium-renova... > The renovation of Husky Stadium received the green light to proceed when the University of Washington Board of Regents approved the $250 million project in November. > The project—*which will not use any public or University funds*—is scheduled to get under way just before the end of the 2011 football season. ... > The Department of Intercollegiate Athletics will fund the renovation through 30-year bonds. In addition, the UW is seeking major gift donations of $50 million as well as $200 million in new revenue from naming rights, season tickets and premium seating to cover the cost. The story is similar for the renovation of Martin Stadium at WSU, which was largely paid for with TV revenue. It turns out that you can make a lot of money in sports if you don't have to pay the players.
- dehrmann 5y ago
seanmcdirmid 5y ago
These head football coaches are also just as easily fired if they lose a few games, so it’s not like their salaries are easy money. They have to perform, and are just as likely not to get lucky with a good team (they have to make their own luck). It seems a bit too much pressure for me, much easier and profitable to work your way up at a big tech, or get that MD and become head of the medical school or cancer institute (the other highest paid public employees).
- V-eHGsd_ 5y ago
  they are mostly contract based positions, no? I believe this is guaranteed money.
  - pastaguy1 5y ago
    There's usually buyout clauses. Some money guaranteed, not the whole contract.
dsizzle 5y ago
Yeah, the headline weirdly implies Washington is unusual in this regard.
- tomcam 5y ago
  What would be a less misleading headline with HN's 80-character limit?
  - dsizzle 5y ago
    Hm, now that you mention it, I guess my reaction is more against the parochial choice of content, rather than the appropriateness of the headline. But s/The state of Washington/Colleges/ would might work?
    - tomcam 5y ago
      Parochial or specific? Generalizing to other states would require multiple links, wouldn't it?
      - dsizzle 5y ago
        No https://www.audacy.com/sports/ncaa-football/gallery/2021-highest-paid-college-football-coach-and-their-salaries https://www.audacy.com/sports/ncaa-football/gallery/2021-hig... Yeah, “specific” would have been better.
bufferoverflow 5y ago
Worth to whom? As a taxpayer, I don't see that money coming back to me.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
deepsun 5y ago
Ok, but why state taxpayers have to pay for that?
- colinmhayes 5y ago
  Major football programs all make money when you count the donations and goodwill they bring in.

8note 5y ago

You'd think the players are similarly worth it.

tengbretson 5y ago
Ask the top talent in the country if they'd rather play for a team coached by Rich Rodriguez for 50k a year, or Nick Saban for free.
- dsizzle 5y ago
  I feel like college coaches at good schools are probably overrated: players choose which team they play for, and school reputation is a major factor. Talent on pro teams on the other hand are much more equitable distributed due to the draft, making it easier to judge coaching talent. Also, $50k is a weird number to choose in your example. Presumably the best players would command much more than that.

JamesSwift 5y ago

Well, they are paid that much because that money is coming in and they sure as hell aren't going to give it to the athletes. So the coach is next in line. Things would look quite different if athletes were able to negotiate salary.

ralph84 5y ago
Indeed, in pro sports even average players earn more than their head coaches/managers.
- JamesSwift 5y ago
  Right. I was interested about it so looked up both NBA and NFL. Both are ~3:1 difference between highest paid players and highest paid coaches.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
philwelch 5y ago
Coaches also make a much bigger difference in college sports, because the athletes only have four years of eligibility, and you're lucky to get that much. The best basketball players all leave college after 1-2 years (closer to 0-1 for the very best) while football players usually need more time to develop. The best coaches can build a system that different players can slot into year after year and also recruit the best prospects coming out of high school. Meanwhile in the professional leagues, you have a decent chance of holding onto the best players for much longer than 4 years.
- JamesSwift 5y ago
  Well yes and no. I think college sports is much more athlete-centric because players still haven't reached the limit of their abilities. So you end up with very large disparities between the great players and the average players, and single great players are much more likely to be able to dominate the game.
  - philwelch 5y ago
    But from the perspective of an individual program, that’s only going to make a difference for a couple years at most. Being able to consistently recruit great players and set them up to succeed is more valuable.

almost_usual 5y ago

Nit: There are definitely states where basketball coaches are paid more than football coaches.

peter422 5y ago

Even the bad ones that are terrible and below replacement level are worth it? I don’t think so. Some coaches are “worth it”, many are not.

nixgeek 5y ago
But the "many are not" flies in the face of a market economy and the fact nobody is forced to pay this compensation. It's your opinion they aren't worth it and you aren't the person writing the check. You're certainly entitled to this opinion :) Arguably, success as a professional coach is substantially more objective and less subjective than many professions. Professional sports analyze everything. Statistics is huge both for the fans and the teams. Is the team winning? For colleges especially, you have annual turnover in student ranks so more in-and-out of players than NHL, NFL, NBA, etc etc. That's got to be tricky to manage. You have to attract talent to the institution and develop it when there. So the simple fact is these coaches are able to demand these packages (and get them!). Someone out there has to write the checks and believes the performance and outcomes justifies the cost, that they are "worth it".
- anikan_vader 5y ago
  But the reason these coaches are able to get these salaries is because of policy decisions made by state governments. To some extent, voters have a civil duty to decide whether they agree with this policy, and vote accordingly. It's true that someone has to write their checks, but the point is that that someone is the state government, which is funded by our tax dollars. On the other hand, most state schools are getting less and less money from the state as American state governments turn away from funding education.
  - ryandrake 5y ago
    > But the reason these coaches are able to get these salaries is because of policy decisions made by state governments. To some extent, voters have a civil duty to decide whether they agree with this policy, and vote accordingly. Only to the most remote, infinitesimal extent, do I as a voter have any deciding power. I can’t think of a voting strategy that I, as someone who opposes education funding going to stadiums or sports, could employ to voice that opposition. No public servant on my State ballot controls coaches’ salaries or the allocation of university funds. I can’t connect the dots.

macinjosh 5y ago

Seems like scope creep for an educational institution to me.

MattGaiser 5y ago
More just an incredibly lucrative side business in a way that the main business can never be. Raising $10 million for a stadium is far easier than raising a $10 million endowment for a science lab. But when alumni come back for the football, you can hit them up for money for the science lab.
- bumby 5y ago
  I think the issue is that many feel public institutions shouldn’t be run like a business in the first place. As an example, if many government services were run with the bottom line as the primary motive, many rural citizens would find they no longer receive those services
  - chrismcb 5y ago
    If money is involved, it should absolutely be run like a business. But just because it is run like a business doesn't mean the bottom line is the primary motive. And don't forget that the majority of a universities money is not government money.
    - bumby 5y ago
      What do you think the primary motive of a university should be and how would you measure it?

brightball 5y ago

Yep. I always chuckle when people are surprised by this stuff. Florida State was about to become an all girl school in the 1970s before Bobby Bowden saved their football program. Clemson’s applications skyrocketed in 1977 when they beat Georgia early in the year and run consistently higher any years in which the team is having success. Donations increase. Alumni come to games, get together, see their friends, show their kids around campus, tell stories. No matter what your major, the activities that we can all enjoy together bring us together.

jgalt212 5y ago
I doubt Greg Schiano has had anything but an extractive relationship with the state of New Jersey and its tax payers.
bumby 5y ago
The timeline is interesting, because it’s my understanding that the 1980s is when college tuition began rapidly increasing [1]. Granted, there’s many other factors like govt backed loans, but inflated coach salaries seems to coincide [2]. The 1980s seemed to mark the beginning of an era when college was run more as a business than a purely educationally minded institution. I’m not sure society is better off for it. [1] https://www.usatoday.com/story/college/2017/06/09/private-college-tuition-is-rising-faster-than-inflation-again/37432483/ https://www.usatoday.com/story/college/2017/06/09/private-co... [2] https://www.bannersociety.com/platform/amp/2019/8/15/20732192/coach-salaries-history-highest https://www.bannersociety.com/platform/amp/2019/8/15/2073219...

selimthegrim 5y ago

I think Steve Weinberg demanded to be paid at least as much as the football coach at UT Austin

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

varelse 5y ago

And yet back in the '90s the woman I was dating got two simultaneous fellowships from two separate sources completely legally. The university then invoked some sort of rule capping her compensation and took the rest.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

MisterBastahrd 5y ago

Another reason that this is possible is because these coaches are sort of state employees on a technicality. The funds are raised by boosters and paid through the athletic foundation associated with the university. Most of the largest universities have their entire athletic budgets funded through a combination of donations and revenue from live men's football and basketball games, both in-stadium and television money.

tomcam 5y ago
> The funds are raised by boosters and paid through the athletic foundation associated with the university. So they donate to the state general fund or something?
- MisterBastahrd 5y ago
  The athletic foundations aren't completely separate entities, but they operate that way for the most part. They don't donate to the general fund, but many of the ones with higher revenue donate excess money back to the university. Usually, university presidents get involved with various administrative details or when hiring a new athletic director.
  - tomcam 5y ago
    But this page seems to indicate they are paid out of the state's general fund? I think? If they're paid by a foundation wouldn't that be a line item at the foundation? Not trying to be argumentative here. I'm actually interested in whether my taxes are being used to fund multimillion dollar coaches. Not appealing, even though I love football. But if it's paid through privately raised funds I don't care.
    - colinmhayes 5y ago
      Football coaches are technically because they work for public universities, but their salary is paid by boosters and revenue the program brings in. Football and basketball programs at almost all the power 5 schools make money when accounting for donations.

WalterBright 5y ago

Caltech in the 70's was notable for the average IQ of the football players being higher than their average weight. A season was considered triumphant if the team did better than 100% losses. I never went to a game, none of my friends did, and had no idea who the players were or when the games were. It was kinda nice not being at a football collage.

lr1970 5y ago
> Caltech in the 70's was notable for the average IQ of the football players being higher than their average weight. You forgot to mention that the weight should be expressed in kilograms. Otherwise, if expressed in pounds this would be a Mensa dream team :-)
WalterBright 5y ago
About 30 years ago or so, I was invited to a Superbowl party. I thought I'd be sociable and give it a try. The party was nice, and eventually someone asked me which team I was rooting for. I said the guys in the blue shirts. That didn't go over well at all.
basedgod 5y ago
there's no college football team in the world that averages less than 160lbs, and 160 iq average is impossible for a football team or any number you'd pick. don't make things up
- mhh__ 5y ago
  kg perhaps?
- WalterBright 5y ago
  You're right, but the joke about Caltech's team did not originate with me. It came from the press coverage of the team :-) Nevertheless, The average IQ at Caltech is somewhere around 130-135. My freshman weight was 136, when I graduated it was a bit over 140. I'm around 155 today. I was hardly the lightest student. Caltech wasn't picky about who got on the team, as not many wanted to. I'm also pretty sure that if Caltech had the ability to force students onto the team, they could have fielded one with an average IQ of 160. I knew many students that smart. I'd never met people like that before. They're amazing. Hal Finney was one. So yes, it was a joke. But the funny jokes are ones that have an element of truth to them.

gregwebs 5y ago

Football making lots of money is a myth because there are many hidden costs. A big one is the cost of the stadium and this comes out of a different budget (sometimes student fees). Not saying that there aren't some schools coming out ahead, just saying that modeling this out is a lot more complicated and often when this is done carefully by academics doing studies most programs that people think of as succesful are losing money. Similar with pro sports, often the cost of the hundred million dollar stadium, etc is not necessarily recouped.

waynecochran 5y ago
UW football, at least in the past, makes a ton of money. I assume all the other sports lose money. I attended UW in the Don James era so its been awhile.
rectang 5y ago
Classically, you couldn't count on local newspaper reporting about these costs either, because sports pages sold papers. One thing that makes me feel good about living in San Diego is that we've repeatedly told begging billionaires looking to grift their stadiums out of our city taxes to go fuck themselves.
philwelch 5y ago
https://magazine.washington.edu/feature/husky-stadium-renovation-gets-the-green-light/ https://magazine.washington.edu/feature/husky-stadium-renova... > The renovation of Husky Stadium received the green light to proceed when the University of Washington Board of Regents approved the $250 million project in November. > The project—*which will not use any public or University funds*—is scheduled to get under way just before the end of the 2011 football season. ... > The Department of Intercollegiate Athletics will fund the renovation through 30-year bonds. In addition, the UW is seeking major gift donations of $50 million as well as $200 million in new revenue from naming rights, season tickets and premium seating to cover the cost. The story is similar for the renovation of Martin Stadium at WSU, which was largely paid for with TV revenue. It turns out that you can make a lot of money in sports if you don't have to pay the players.
dehrmann 5y ago

seanmcdirmid 5y ago

These head football coaches are also just as easily fired if they lose a few games, so it’s not like their salaries are easy money. They have to perform, and are just as likely not to get lucky with a good team (they have to make their own luck). It seems a bit too much pressure for me, much easier and profitable to work your way up at a big tech, or get that MD and become head of the medical school or cancer institute (the other highest paid public employees).

V-eHGsd_ 5y ago
they are mostly contract based positions, no? I believe this is guaranteed money.
- pastaguy1 5y ago
  There's usually buyout clauses. Some money guaranteed, not the whole contract.

dsizzle 5y ago

Yeah, the headline weirdly implies Washington is unusual in this regard.

tomcam 5y ago
What would be a less misleading headline with HN's 80-character limit?
- dsizzle 5y ago
  Hm, now that you mention it, I guess my reaction is more against the parochial choice of content, rather than the appropriateness of the headline. But s/The state of Washington/Colleges/ would might work?
  - tomcam 5y ago
    Parochial or specific? Generalizing to other states would require multiple links, wouldn't it?
    - dsizzle 5y ago
      No https://www.audacy.com/sports/ncaa-football/gallery/2021-highest-paid-college-football-coach-and-their-salaries https://www.audacy.com/sports/ncaa-football/gallery/2021-hig... Yeah, “specific” would have been better.

bufferoverflow 5y ago

Worth to whom? As a taxpayer, I don't see that money coming back to me.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

deepsun 5y ago

Ok, but why state taxpayers have to pay for that?

colinmhayes 5y ago
Major football programs all make money when you count the donations and goodwill they bring in.