5 ms·

If you want to go into management, then why do you waste 10+ years going from junior to senior to principal and so on until you finally get to manage your first

by est31 5y ago

If you want to go into management, then why do you waste 10+ years going from junior to senior to principal and so on until you finally get to manage your first small team? The people who went for management from the start would be way ahead of you then, no?

Aeolun 5y ago
Because you end up being much more effective if you know what you are doing? Managing a team of developers without any idea how to do the work is a disaster. Of course, having some experience doesn’t guarantee you’ll be an effective manager, but without it you’re almost guaranteed to fail.
- oakfr 5y ago
  Indeed. Also, you have plenty of time do to both. Start as an engineer at 22, write code for 15 years. Switch to management at 37. That still leaves you with 15+ years to climb the career ladder.
- danbruc 5y ago
  So am I guaranteed to fail at developing a platform for selling used cars if I have never worked as a used car salesman and have no idea how they work? Of course not, I am supposed to acquire the necessary understanding by talking to users and subject matter experts. I think the same holds for managers, you can understand and manage a software development process without having been a developer. Does experience help, could former used car salesman develop the platform better, could former developers manage the team better? Sure, but only if they are also good in their current role, if they are good developers or a good manager. And being good in your current role comes first, having experience in the field you are writing software for or that you are managing is an added bonus.
- marcinzm 5y ago
  That's only the case if the manager meddles in technology and doesn't know how to delegate properly (or hire properly). I would say a manager who does those things is inherently a manager who can't scale and is unlikely to ever work well with senior technical people. As a manager my goal is to use as little of my technical knowledge as possible but rather to let my senior technical leaders do that part instead. I've got so many other things to handle and deal with that being technical except at a high level seems silly.
  - vp8989 5y ago
    "I've got so many other things to handle and deal with that being technical except at a high level seems silly." Like what?
    - marcinzm 5y ago
      I probably missed some but a general overview: - Helping figure out the right goals and metrics for the team and ensuring everyone is on the same page. - Holding 1-on-1s with team members, non-technical feedback and yearly reviews. Seriously, yearly reviews are a massive time sink if you actually care and spend time on them. - Passing around information to the team and making sure they are involved in the right meeting/conversations. - Attending various management meetings that usually could be replaced with a wiki page. - Resolving non-technical issues my team members are having. This includes listening to venting sessions, complaints and general bitching. Need to handle these situations in a diplomatic non-judgemental way. - Keep track of team non-technical blockers (people, process, etc.) and try to resolve them (short or long term). This includes resolving product management issues and other teams blocking my team. - Keeping stakeholders close and happy - Selling the team, it's vision and achievements broadly - Hiring - Planning team promotions and executing on those plans. This includes telling your team members what they need to do to get promoted and then ensuring those promotions happen. - Non-toxic (or toxic depending on the company) politics - Talking to random people in the company for networking. It's amazing how much people from HR will tell you if you are friendly and get coffee with them.
      - djmips 5y ago
        Sounds like a lot of useful stuff but you'd still be better if you were more technically knowledgeable.
        marcinzm 5y ago
        I am and like I said I'm actively trying to not leverage that skillset. I'm not in the weeds anymore and I cannot be due to the other things I'm responsible for. Someone making technical decisions who used to be an expert, isn't an expert anymore but can override decisions is a horrible mix.
- VLM 5y ago
  If your technical knowledge is 20 years out of date, as an individual contributor you can't be hired although worst case you can't do much damage. On the other hand if your technical knowledge is 20 years out of date, then its much safer for the company to put you in charge of direction and goal setting and hiring decisions and so forth. A Visual Basic 6 programmer "can't" be hired to program in Javascript, although its the same people and skills 25 years apart. However put that VB6 programmer in a management role and somehow that completely obsolete technical skillset is "invaluable", LOL.
  - Mezzie 5y ago
    Yes, because from a business standpoint, you should care where your product is going to be after 20 years, and the VB6 programmer knows that eventually JS might not be a thing and will think of architecture decisions like 'we'll have to transition this to another language, how should we make that process easier?' Likewise, some lessons transfer. "Huh, that time we were working on Thing X and relying solely on Bob's technological expertise we were completely screwed and the company went under after after Bob had an aneurysm, I should make sure there are no single points of failure on the team knowledge wise." Or "Man, we built such a beautiful Visual Basic 6 program, but the interface was so bad nobody used it and we failed. Let's make sure our front end and back end people are communicating properly." Or, "This was the most elegant technical solution, but then it turned out nobody had the resources to run it. So let's make sure to do our user testing and make sure we're designing appropriately."
iamstupidsimple 5y ago
I wouldn't respect a manager who hadn't done the job itself.
- thesumofall 5y ago
  Some of the better managers I’ve seen had no background whatsoever in the field they were managing. But they were great at listening, working with people, managing conflicting interests, and taking decisions after consideration of relevant input
- vincnetas 5y ago
  if manager knows how to code he will try code using your hands. aka micromanaging. you will get comments like "well just add an 'IF' here and case closed". you don't want manager like this.
  - djmips 5y ago
    That's malarkey. It may happen that way but it's certainly not common in my experience.
lrem 5y ago
I work in Google and have seen distinguished engineers switch to management. They typically get a small number of direct reports, all of them directors.

by est31 5y ago

Aeolun 5y ago

Because you end up being much more effective if you know what you are doing? Managing a team of developers without any idea how to do the work is a disaster. Of course, having some experience doesn’t guarantee you’ll be an effective manager, but without it you’re almost guaranteed to fail.

oakfr 5y ago
Indeed. Also, you have plenty of time do to both. Start as an engineer at 22, write code for 15 years. Switch to management at 37. That still leaves you with 15+ years to climb the career ladder.
danbruc 5y ago
So am I guaranteed to fail at developing a platform for selling used cars if I have never worked as a used car salesman and have no idea how they work? Of course not, I am supposed to acquire the necessary understanding by talking to users and subject matter experts. I think the same holds for managers, you can understand and manage a software development process without having been a developer. Does experience help, could former used car salesman develop the platform better, could former developers manage the team better? Sure, but only if they are also good in their current role, if they are good developers or a good manager. And being good in your current role comes first, having experience in the field you are writing software for or that you are managing is an added bonus.
marcinzm 5y ago
That's only the case if the manager meddles in technology and doesn't know how to delegate properly (or hire properly). I would say a manager who does those things is inherently a manager who can't scale and is unlikely to ever work well with senior technical people. As a manager my goal is to use as little of my technical knowledge as possible but rather to let my senior technical leaders do that part instead. I've got so many other things to handle and deal with that being technical except at a high level seems silly.
- vp8989 5y ago
  "I've got so many other things to handle and deal with that being technical except at a high level seems silly." Like what?
  - marcinzm 5y ago
    I probably missed some but a general overview: - Helping figure out the right goals and metrics for the team and ensuring everyone is on the same page. - Holding 1-on-1s with team members, non-technical feedback and yearly reviews. Seriously, yearly reviews are a massive time sink if you actually care and spend time on them. - Passing around information to the team and making sure they are involved in the right meeting/conversations. - Attending various management meetings that usually could be replaced with a wiki page. - Resolving non-technical issues my team members are having. This includes listening to venting sessions, complaints and general bitching. Need to handle these situations in a diplomatic non-judgemental way. - Keep track of team non-technical blockers (people, process, etc.) and try to resolve them (short or long term). This includes resolving product management issues and other teams blocking my team. - Keeping stakeholders close and happy - Selling the team, it's vision and achievements broadly - Hiring - Planning team promotions and executing on those plans. This includes telling your team members what they need to do to get promoted and then ensuring those promotions happen. - Non-toxic (or toxic depending on the company) politics - Talking to random people in the company for networking. It's amazing how much people from HR will tell you if you are friendly and get coffee with them.
    - djmips 5y ago
      Sounds like a lot of useful stuff but you'd still be better if you were more technically knowledgeable.
      - marcinzm 5y ago
        I am and like I said I'm actively trying to not leverage that skillset. I'm not in the weeds anymore and I cannot be due to the other things I'm responsible for. Someone making technical decisions who used to be an expert, isn't an expert anymore but can override decisions is a horrible mix.
VLM 5y ago
If your technical knowledge is 20 years out of date, as an individual contributor you can't be hired although worst case you can't do much damage. On the other hand if your technical knowledge is 20 years out of date, then its much safer for the company to put you in charge of direction and goal setting and hiring decisions and so forth. A Visual Basic 6 programmer "can't" be hired to program in Javascript, although its the same people and skills 25 years apart. However put that VB6 programmer in a management role and somehow that completely obsolete technical skillset is "invaluable", LOL.
- Mezzie 5y ago
  Yes, because from a business standpoint, you should care where your product is going to be after 20 years, and the VB6 programmer knows that eventually JS might not be a thing and will think of architecture decisions like 'we'll have to transition this to another language, how should we make that process easier?' Likewise, some lessons transfer. "Huh, that time we were working on Thing X and relying solely on Bob's technological expertise we were completely screwed and the company went under after after Bob had an aneurysm, I should make sure there are no single points of failure on the team knowledge wise." Or "Man, we built such a beautiful Visual Basic 6 program, but the interface was so bad nobody used it and we failed. Let's make sure our front end and back end people are communicating properly." Or, "This was the most elegant technical solution, but then it turned out nobody had the resources to run it. So let's make sure to do our user testing and make sure we're designing appropriately."

iamstupidsimple 5y ago

I wouldn't respect a manager who hadn't done the job itself.

thesumofall 5y ago
Some of the better managers I’ve seen had no background whatsoever in the field they were managing. But they were great at listening, working with people, managing conflicting interests, and taking decisions after consideration of relevant input
vincnetas 5y ago
if manager knows how to code he will try code using your hands. aka micromanaging. you will get comments like "well just add an 'IF' here and case closed". you don't want manager like this.
- djmips 5y ago
  That's malarkey. It may happen that way but it's certainly not common in my experience.

lrem 5y ago

I work in Google and have seen distinguished engineers switch to management. They typically get a small number of direct reports, all of them directors.