8 ms·

Um. Is high hazard and death ratio for obese people something that needed explaining?

chiefalchemist 5y ago
Agreed. But apparently we're on the wrong side of the narrative. The simple fact is, we don't have leadership able to tell consumers that they've done too good job (to the point of ruining their own health), that the (over) consumption economy has failed them. This is why (in the USA) we hear very little about areas not overrun (e.g., many African countries). I am by no means a Covid denier, but the bottom line is: Covid is more of a symptom (of broader health and healthcare issues) than it is a Black Plague-esque disease. Since the majoriry rules, and illness has been normalized there will be few in power willing to speak truth.
- hdjjhhvvhga 5y ago
  It's an interesting take but you are only partly correct, because only some of these problems are self-inflicted, so to say. There are only as many ways you can influence your blood pressure levels for example. At some point no matter what you do - you run an hour a day, eat veggies mainly, eat zero salt (which is not recommended btw) - and still have higher blood pressure than your older colleague with BMI above average. So you can't just claim COVID-19 is punishing the people who don't take care of themselves.
  - nradov 5y ago
    The impact of salt on blood pressure is based on concentration (osmolality), not quantity. Consuming excess fructose can also cause hypertension due to the biochemical mechanisms in humans and other primates that cause higher uric acid production. https://peterattiamd.com/rickjohnson/ https://peterattiamd.com/rickjohnson/
  - chiefalchemist 5y ago
    I agree 100%, and should have said so in my OP, there are some who have conditions that are difficult to treat. However, there are a significant number that are legitimately preventable. Rare is rhe case where a doctor's prescription is "consume more sugar." The science, which we're all in favor of, is pretty clear on this. It's not logical that we (in the USA) continue to side step a serious discussion about the value of prevention (and how that relates to the level of unhealthines we are on average.)
- gelert 5y ago
  Congratulations on realising that successful diseases reflect their environments and times in human history. Were you alive during the Black Death I imagine you'd be talking about how, though you're no denier, it's the fault of people using ships to trade.
  - techbio 5y ago
    Since GP refers to ubiquitous systemic issues, not xenophobia, not technological ventures, "ships to trade" seems to be a red herring. Also worth noting: "congratulations" reads more than a bit disingenuously.
  - lnanek2 5y ago
    Don't see how ships to trade is a red herring. First Google result for "Black Death rats ships": > The Black Death was also carried by rats on merchant ships through the trade routes of Europe. It struck Europe in 1347, when 12 ships docked at the Sicilian port of Messina. Subsequently called “death ships”, those on board were either dead or sick Parent is using an example of a case where we know trade by ships helped cause the plague to spread, so is similar to how obese people have worse covid outcomes. No one is really going to go on a platform and attack trade by ships, though, just like in modern times no one is allowed to discriminate against the obese.
    - techbio 5y ago
      Because "ships to trade" is the Black Death equivalent of something like "Wuhan flu". Not even close to obesity. Maybe you are looking for "allowing home ovens to bake bread attracts rats."
      - chiefalchemist 5y ago
        The point is, the infection rates, etc. are not comparable. Taken in aggragate and on a long enough time line just about anything can look dangerous. Sans, evidently, preventable diseases. Then we sweep those aside, even before Covid. Again, all that's being suggested is more transparency and honesty, and less hyperbole and statistical fueled manipulation. That is all.
andy_ppp 5y ago
Obesity being a risk factor was well known. Why obesity causes more chance of death hadn't been studied well, which I believe is why the paper is appearing here. Pre-print might lead to it being rejected or outcomes changed or tweaked, and it clearly needs replication in a larger study to see if the findings hold up. But equally I think being healthy and reducing your weight is likely to increase your odds of not becoming severely ill.
- FeepingCreature 5y ago
  Sure, but I didn't think that obesity deaths needed a factor unique to Covid 19 to explain. I'd expect, as a layman, that what causes obese people to die more from Coronavirus is probably the same thing that causes them to die more from everything else that stresses the body. (Whatever that is.)
  - hwbehrens 5y ago
    > probably the same thing These things, which are usually things like diabetes, blood sugar problems, high blood pressure, elevated cortisol and so on, do correlate with poorer COVID outcomes. My understanding is that, even when you control for these factors, outcomes for obese patients are still below what we would expect to see. This means that there is still a contributing factor that we haven't considered yet, and the parent study hypothesizes one possible reason.
  - justinator 5y ago
    > is probably the same thing that causes them to die more from everything else that stresses the body. (Whatever that is.) There's a good chance that whatever that is, isn't actually a thing, and that people unfairly find fat people repulsive for no reason except that they are fat, https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/is-being-fat-bad-for-you/id1535408667?i=1000542081632 https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/is-being-fat-bad-for-y...
  - Villeinesse 5y ago
    Severe D deficiencies is the 'why', while this paper deals with part of the 'how'. Since D is fat soluble, all D goes into the fat cells first, but so much fat cannot be easily filled, so while leaving the free-floating blood & organs completely unprotected, even many fat cells are still largely empty & unprotected too! D is the critical immune hormone traditional Equatorial tribes, like the Maasai, continue to make naturally in their skin, outside under their year-round UVB. With little exercise, they stay thin, healthy & happy their whole lives with D maintained at 45-55ng/ml! Obese suffer much higher rates of most modern diseases because of ever lower D, becoming diabetic, cancerous, heart-diseased, and/or auto-immune. But cheap & safe supplementation to evolutionary repletion >50ng/ml, (though requiring much higher dosing for obese), is just as protective for the obese as for any healthy or other CovidComorbid person. A recent PubMed peer-reviewed Meta-Analysis showed the complete inversality of D & Covid. They surmised that 50ng/(or 125nmol) would have ZERO CovidMortality!
Brave-Steak 5y ago
> something that needed explaining This is like asking why we need science at all. We might know that obesity is a significant risk factor, but we don't know why and what we could do about it. So yes, it does need explaining. This is a possible explanation and might inspire further research into the topic, in particular preventative or curative treatments.
techbio 5y ago
If something is so obvious as to need no explanation, it just might be worth understanding what about it is causal. What can be done given the predisposition to obesity in a time of abundant necessities? It seems your conclusion is to let it go to the joint processes of sin and natural selection, which would tend to call into question your moral certainty. EDIT: Another post today titled "Causal Information Affects Decisions" seems relevant here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29509236 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29509236
- FeepingCreature 5y ago
  I don't care about the moral aspect, I just thought it was established that obesity causes the body to be less able to handle ~any kind of stress. Is that actually incorrect? Like, my confusion is that I didn't think we needed to go look for a new mechanism unique to Covid here.
  - andy_ppp 5y ago
    Yes but the point is your point is added onto buy the possibility (likliyhood given the study) that being fat has a particular mechanism for it being worse than all the other co-morbidities we're talking about. That's what the paper is studying!
_pmf_ 5y ago
> Um. Is high hazard and death ratio for obese people something that needed explaining? Some people might argue that convincing people to not get fat is much lower hanging fruit than transforming every democracy into an authoritarian apartheid state for effects that are well below any statistical significance threshold.
- FeepingCreature 5y ago
  Well, to be fair, I don't even think that's obviously true even given your unsourced claims.
- xapata 5y ago
  I think you left that under-explained.
- hippie_queen 5y ago
  It seems that the "convincing people to not get fat" project has been a massive failure so far.
- Klinky 5y ago
  If it has no statistical significance why would you run a campaign at all?

Agreed. But apparently we're on the wrong side of the narrative. The simple fact is, we don't have leadership able to tell consumers that they've done too good job (to the point of ruining their own health), that the (over) consumption economy has failed them. This is why (in the USA) we hear very little about areas not overrun (e.g., many African countries). I am by no means a Covid denier, but the bottom line is: Covid is more of a symptom (of broader health and healthcare issues) than it is a Black Plague-esque disease. Since the majoriry rules, and illness has been normalized there will be few in power willing to speak truth.

hdjjhhvvhga 5y ago
It's an interesting take but you are only partly correct, because only some of these problems are self-inflicted, so to say. There are only as many ways you can influence your blood pressure levels for example. At some point no matter what you do - you run an hour a day, eat veggies mainly, eat zero salt (which is not recommended btw) - and still have higher blood pressure than your older colleague with BMI above average. So you can't just claim COVID-19 is punishing the people who don't take care of themselves.
- nradov 5y ago
  The impact of salt on blood pressure is based on concentration (osmolality), not quantity. Consuming excess fructose can also cause hypertension due to the biochemical mechanisms in humans and other primates that cause higher uric acid production. https://peterattiamd.com/rickjohnson/ https://peterattiamd.com/rickjohnson/
- chiefalchemist 5y ago
  I agree 100%, and should have said so in my OP, there are some who have conditions that are difficult to treat. However, there are a significant number that are legitimately preventable. Rare is rhe case where a doctor's prescription is "consume more sugar." The science, which we're all in favor of, is pretty clear on this. It's not logical that we (in the USA) continue to side step a serious discussion about the value of prevention (and how that relates to the level of unhealthines we are on average.)
gelert 5y ago
Congratulations on realising that successful diseases reflect their environments and times in human history. Were you alive during the Black Death I imagine you'd be talking about how, though you're no denier, it's the fault of people using ships to trade.
- techbio 5y ago
  Since GP refers to ubiquitous systemic issues, not xenophobia, not technological ventures, "ships to trade" seems to be a red herring. Also worth noting: "congratulations" reads more than a bit disingenuously.
- lnanek2 5y ago
  Don't see how ships to trade is a red herring. First Google result for "Black Death rats ships": > The Black Death was also carried by rats on merchant ships through the trade routes of Europe. It struck Europe in 1347, when 12 ships docked at the Sicilian port of Messina. Subsequently called “death ships”, those on board were either dead or sick Parent is using an example of a case where we know trade by ships helped cause the plague to spread, so is similar to how obese people have worse covid outcomes. No one is really going to go on a platform and attack trade by ships, though, just like in modern times no one is allowed to discriminate against the obese.
  - techbio 5y ago
    Because "ships to trade" is the Black Death equivalent of something like "Wuhan flu". Not even close to obesity. Maybe you are looking for "allowing home ovens to bake bread attracts rats."
    - chiefalchemist 5y ago
      The point is, the infection rates, etc. are not comparable. Taken in aggragate and on a long enough time line just about anything can look dangerous. Sans, evidently, preventable diseases. Then we sweep those aside, even before Covid. Again, all that's being suggested is more transparency and honesty, and less hyperbole and statistical fueled manipulation. That is all.

andy_ppp 5y ago

Obesity being a risk factor was well known. Why obesity causes more chance of death hadn't been studied well, which I believe is why the paper is appearing here. Pre-print might lead to it being rejected or outcomes changed or tweaked, and it clearly needs replication in a larger study to see if the findings hold up. But equally I think being healthy and reducing your weight is likely to increase your odds of not becoming severely ill.

FeepingCreature 5y ago
Sure, but I didn't think that obesity deaths needed a factor unique to Covid 19 to explain. I'd expect, as a layman, that what causes obese people to die more from Coronavirus is probably the same thing that causes them to die more from everything else that stresses the body. (Whatever that is.)
- hwbehrens 5y ago
  > probably the same thing These things, which are usually things like diabetes, blood sugar problems, high blood pressure, elevated cortisol and so on, do correlate with poorer COVID outcomes. My understanding is that, even when you control for these factors, outcomes for obese patients are still below what we would expect to see. This means that there is still a contributing factor that we haven't considered yet, and the parent study hypothesizes one possible reason.
- justinator 5y ago
  > is probably the same thing that causes them to die more from everything else that stresses the body. (Whatever that is.) There's a good chance that whatever that is, isn't actually a thing, and that people unfairly find fat people repulsive for no reason except that they are fat, https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/is-being-fat-bad-for-you/id1535408667?i=1000542081632 https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/is-being-fat-bad-for-y...
- Villeinesse 5y ago
  Severe D deficiencies is the 'why', while this paper deals with part of the 'how'. Since D is fat soluble, all D goes into the fat cells first, but so much fat cannot be easily filled, so while leaving the free-floating blood & organs completely unprotected, even many fat cells are still largely empty & unprotected too! D is the critical immune hormone traditional Equatorial tribes, like the Maasai, continue to make naturally in their skin, outside under their year-round UVB. With little exercise, they stay thin, healthy & happy their whole lives with D maintained at 45-55ng/ml! Obese suffer much higher rates of most modern diseases because of ever lower D, becoming diabetic, cancerous, heart-diseased, and/or auto-immune. But cheap & safe supplementation to evolutionary repletion >50ng/ml, (though requiring much higher dosing for obese), is just as protective for the obese as for any healthy or other CovidComorbid person. A recent PubMed peer-reviewed Meta-Analysis showed the complete inversality of D & Covid. They surmised that 50ng/(or 125nmol) would have ZERO CovidMortality!

Brave-Steak 5y ago

> something that needed explaining This is like asking why we need science at all. We might know that obesity is a significant risk factor, but we don't know why and what we could do about it. So yes, it does need explaining. This is a possible explanation and might inspire further research into the topic, in particular preventative or curative treatments.

techbio 5y ago

If something is so obvious as to need no explanation, it just might be worth understanding what about it is causal. What can be done given the predisposition to obesity in a time of abundant necessities? It seems your conclusion is to let it go to the joint processes of sin and natural selection, which would tend to call into question your moral certainty. EDIT: Another post today titled "Causal Information Affects Decisions" seems relevant here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29509236 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29509236

FeepingCreature 5y ago
I don't care about the moral aspect, I just thought it was established that obesity causes the body to be less able to handle ~any kind of stress. Is that actually incorrect? Like, my confusion is that I didn't think we needed to go look for a new mechanism unique to Covid here.
- andy_ppp 5y ago
  Yes but the point is your point is added onto buy the possibility (likliyhood given the study) that being fat has a particular mechanism for it being worse than all the other co-morbidities we're talking about. That's what the paper is studying!

_pmf_ 5y ago

> Um. Is high hazard and death ratio for obese people something that needed explaining? Some people might argue that convincing people to not get fat is much lower hanging fruit than transforming every democracy into an authoritarian apartheid state for effects that are well below any statistical significance threshold.

FeepingCreature 5y ago
Well, to be fair, I don't even think that's obviously true even given your unsourced claims.
xapata 5y ago
I think you left that under-explained.
hippie_queen 5y ago
It seems that the "convincing people to not get fat" project has been a massive failure so far.
Klinky 5y ago
If it has no statistical significance why would you run a campaign at all?