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The time zone issues sound fun: > A visit to Mount Athos also involves literal time travel. The monasteries there still go by Byzantine time, in which the day

The time zone issues sound fun: > A visit to Mount Athos also involves literal time travel. The monasteries there still go by Byzantine time, in which the day begins at sunset, not midnight, so the time zone changes literally every day. Visitors may have to set their watches back by as much as seven hours as they cross the border. And don't forget to change the date as well. Mount Athos never adopted the new-fangled 16th-century Gregorian calendar; they still use the Julian calendar of the Roman Empire, which lags 13 days behind. It's almost two weeks ago there!

rwmj 5y ago
And no entry in the timezone database :-( https://github.com/eggert/tz/search?q=athos https://github.com/eggert/tz/search?q=athos But then if they have no computers, maybe that doesn't matter.
- colejohnson66 5y ago
  The constant "time zone" changes might throw a wrench into calculating the offsets. How far in advance can we calculate sunrise/sunset times?
  - mschuster91 5y ago
    Infinite, there is a mathematical formula: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunrise_equation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunrise_equation
  - Arubis 5y ago
    Depends on what you mean by sunrise/sunset. “The relative position of the sun’s edge drops below/rises above the tangent of the average surface at sea level” is pretty easy to calculate many years out; the complications are deviations in Earth’s orbit. “I can/can’t see the sun anymore” depends on local weather, good luck.
    - registeredcorn 5y ago
      > “I can/can’t see the sun anymore” depends on local weather For anyone wanting to know a bit more about why this is, here's some additional details: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-sj868IzNrk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-sj868IzNrk https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmospheric_refraction https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmospheric_refraction Technically, one might also argue something weird like, "If I can see sunlight, it's still daytime" in which case a different phenomina would come into play: https://www.atoptics.co.uk/highsky/zod1.htm https://www.atoptics.co.uk/highsky/zod1.htm https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zodiacal_light https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zodiacal_light What this all comes down to is, roughly speaking, even after the sun has technically set, there's still a bit of leeway before we no longer see the sun/sunlight due additional factors.
  - at_a_remove 5y ago
    I am frustrated in the faintness of memory, but I dimly recollect an area which, for about two years, altered time every day so that noon was when the sun was directly over head. Something Royal Time, or something Solar Time. There are some weird time zones out there.
- flatiron 5y ago
  no women and no computers. do they have a sign up list?
- elorant 5y ago
  They have computers. Some monasteries are modernized and they use computers to digitize old documents and books, or for daily works.
- srcreigh 5y ago
  There's at least one computer on Mt Athos. I've heard a first hand story about a monk there who takes nice photos of animals. He just goes for walks and says, for example, "Snake, come here let me take your photo!" So the snake swims across the lake for a good close up. You can get lots of great photos that way.
  - ChainOfFools 5y ago
    I know for certain that, from 1997 onward, there was at least one Amiga 2000 on Athos (specifically, in Vatopedi) because it used to be mine. How long it stayed there, or whether (given that it was originly a N.American, thus 60hz/NTSC edition, though perhaps it could detect and switch to PAL operation) it was ever even plugged in, I never found out. I'm not even sure the monk who I gave the system to (staying in the US for study) had any particular plan for it, though he did know his way around the machine just well enough to run tetris and wordperfect.
unyttigfjelltol 5y ago
When they tap the chestnut at 3:30am for prayer, is that a bedtime event (their time) or a daybreak event (standard timekeeping)?
- urtrs 5y ago
  It is a daybreak event.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- elorant 5y ago
  The former. 3:30 am is like 8:30 pm. Local hour is about six hours behind regional.
kgeist 5y ago
>Mount Athos never adopted the new-fangled 16th-century Gregorian calendar; they still use the Julian calendar of the Roman Empire, which lags 13 days behind Russian Orthodox Church also still follows the Julian calendar. Majority of Orthodox countries switched to Gregorian only in the 20th century.
- tut-urut-utut 5y ago
  Majority of Orthodox Churches didn't switch to Gregorian calendar, some of them did, although some only partially.
necovek 5y ago
It sounds irrelevant instead, and whoever wrote the article, is obviously being a bit too playful with words. Of course it's not "two weeks ago there", it's just that the date is different: it's as if you tried to use a different calendar system altogether — it's fine, you just need to convert back and forth. FWIW, a bunch of churches (Russian, Serbian, Romanian Orthodox churches) still respect the Julian calendar too, and other than Christmas falling on January 7th in the Gregorian calendar (and Easter calculations using different start points), none of it is particularly notable. Gregorian calendar is not more "correct," it's just better aligned with astronomical events. Astronomers also take middle of the day as the start of the day (look up Julian Days), because noon (Sun at the apex) is what we can actually observe and measure, so that's not something outrageous either. Basically, it's "scandalous" type of reporting on different conventions which obviously have no practical matter.
- joelmichael 5y ago
  Being better aligned with astronomical events makes it more correct. The purpose of the calendar is to map the year, the orbit of the Earth around the Sun. The drift in the Julian calendar was not intended. It is a flaw.
  - zajio1am 5y ago
    I would say that the purpose of the calendar is tracking time/days in general. Astronomical events are just used as a tool to do that. Earlier calendars were lunar-based instead of solar-based, as keeping synchronized with moon is easier.
    - dangerbird2 5y ago
      The solar cycle is extremely important for premodern agricultural societies, since it allows predicting growing and harvesting seasons. If you're going by the Julian calendar and the Autumn equinox is falling on September 10, there's probably going to be confusion as to when the harvest should occur. In the case of the Gregorian Calendar, Catholic countries rely on the Spring Equinox to schedule Easter, and when it started occurring well before March 21, this made it increasingly difficult to synchronize the religious and secular calendars.
runjake 5y ago
Trivia: We used Julian calendar dating on one of our maintenance systems in the US military. Everyone had to learn this dating, and yes it was quite difficult. I asked and never got a good answer on why it was done this way ("Because it's always been this way.") It's been so long ago, I don't remember too many details, but someone else may have a better memory and pipe up. More info: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gregorian_calendar https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gregorian_calendar https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julian_calendar https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julian_calendar
Grustaf 5y ago
A big part of the orthodox church (mostly on the slavic side) also uses the old calendar. That's why Russians "celebrate Christmas in January".
BucketsMcG 5y ago
This is more or less true in Ethiopia too. The length of the day doesn't vary much there, but by convention the clock is offset by six hours, which makes for great fun when you arrange to meet somebody and have to establish whether or not you mean "Ethiopian time". Noon to us is six o'clock to them. They're also on the Julian calendar, giving rise to their old tourism slogan "13 months of sunshine".

rwmj 5y ago

And no entry in the timezone database :-( https://github.com/eggert/tz/search?q=athos https://github.com/eggert/tz/search?q=athos But then if they have no computers, maybe that doesn't matter.

colejohnson66 5y ago
The constant "time zone" changes might throw a wrench into calculating the offsets. How far in advance can we calculate sunrise/sunset times?
- mschuster91 5y ago
  Infinite, there is a mathematical formula: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunrise_equation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunrise_equation
- Arubis 5y ago
  Depends on what you mean by sunrise/sunset. “The relative position of the sun’s edge drops below/rises above the tangent of the average surface at sea level” is pretty easy to calculate many years out; the complications are deviations in Earth’s orbit. “I can/can’t see the sun anymore” depends on local weather, good luck.
  - registeredcorn 5y ago
    > “I can/can’t see the sun anymore” depends on local weather For anyone wanting to know a bit more about why this is, here's some additional details: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-sj868IzNrk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-sj868IzNrk https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmospheric_refraction https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmospheric_refraction Technically, one might also argue something weird like, "If I can see sunlight, it's still daytime" in which case a different phenomina would come into play: https://www.atoptics.co.uk/highsky/zod1.htm https://www.atoptics.co.uk/highsky/zod1.htm https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zodiacal_light https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zodiacal_light What this all comes down to is, roughly speaking, even after the sun has technically set, there's still a bit of leeway before we no longer see the sun/sunlight due additional factors.
- at_a_remove 5y ago
  I am frustrated in the faintness of memory, but I dimly recollect an area which, for about two years, altered time every day so that noon was when the sun was directly over head. Something Royal Time, or something Solar Time. There are some weird time zones out there.
flatiron 5y ago
no women and no computers. do they have a sign up list?
elorant 5y ago
They have computers. Some monasteries are modernized and they use computers to digitize old documents and books, or for daily works.
srcreigh 5y ago
There's at least one computer on Mt Athos. I've heard a first hand story about a monk there who takes nice photos of animals. He just goes for walks and says, for example, "Snake, come here let me take your photo!" So the snake swims across the lake for a good close up. You can get lots of great photos that way.
- ChainOfFools 5y ago
  I know for certain that, from 1997 onward, there was at least one Amiga 2000 on Athos (specifically, in Vatopedi) because it used to be mine. How long it stayed there, or whether (given that it was originly a N.American, thus 60hz/NTSC edition, though perhaps it could detect and switch to PAL operation) it was ever even plugged in, I never found out. I'm not even sure the monk who I gave the system to (staying in the US for study) had any particular plan for it, though he did know his way around the machine just well enough to run tetris and wordperfect.

unyttigfjelltol 5y ago

When they tap the chestnut at 3:30am for prayer, is that a bedtime event (their time) or a daybreak event (standard timekeeping)?

urtrs 5y ago
It is a daybreak event.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
elorant 5y ago
The former. 3:30 am is like 8:30 pm. Local hour is about six hours behind regional.

kgeist 5y ago

>Mount Athos never adopted the new-fangled 16th-century Gregorian calendar; they still use the Julian calendar of the Roman Empire, which lags 13 days behind Russian Orthodox Church also still follows the Julian calendar. Majority of Orthodox countries switched to Gregorian only in the 20th century.

tut-urut-utut 5y ago
Majority of Orthodox Churches didn't switch to Gregorian calendar, some of them did, although some only partially.

necovek 5y ago

It sounds irrelevant instead, and whoever wrote the article, is obviously being a bit too playful with words. Of course it's not "two weeks ago there", it's just that the date is different: it's as if you tried to use a different calendar system altogether — it's fine, you just need to convert back and forth. FWIW, a bunch of churches (Russian, Serbian, Romanian Orthodox churches) still respect the Julian calendar too, and other than Christmas falling on January 7th in the Gregorian calendar (and Easter calculations using different start points), none of it is particularly notable. Gregorian calendar is not more "correct," it's just better aligned with astronomical events. Astronomers also take middle of the day as the start of the day (look up Julian Days), because noon (Sun at the apex) is what we can actually observe and measure, so that's not something outrageous either. Basically, it's "scandalous" type of reporting on different conventions which obviously have no practical matter.

joelmichael 5y ago
Being better aligned with astronomical events makes it more correct. The purpose of the calendar is to map the year, the orbit of the Earth around the Sun. The drift in the Julian calendar was not intended. It is a flaw.
- zajio1am 5y ago
  I would say that the purpose of the calendar is tracking time/days in general. Astronomical events are just used as a tool to do that. Earlier calendars were lunar-based instead of solar-based, as keeping synchronized with moon is easier.
  - dangerbird2 5y ago
    The solar cycle is extremely important for premodern agricultural societies, since it allows predicting growing and harvesting seasons. If you're going by the Julian calendar and the Autumn equinox is falling on September 10, there's probably going to be confusion as to when the harvest should occur. In the case of the Gregorian Calendar, Catholic countries rely on the Spring Equinox to schedule Easter, and when it started occurring well before March 21, this made it increasingly difficult to synchronize the religious and secular calendars.

runjake 5y ago

Trivia: We used Julian calendar dating on one of our maintenance systems in the US military. Everyone had to learn this dating, and yes it was quite difficult. I asked and never got a good answer on why it was done this way ("Because it's always been this way.") It's been so long ago, I don't remember too many details, but someone else may have a better memory and pipe up. More info: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gregorian_calendar https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gregorian_calendar https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julian_calendar https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julian_calendar

Grustaf 5y ago

A big part of the orthodox church (mostly on the slavic side) also uses the old calendar. That's why Russians "celebrate Christmas in January".

BucketsMcG 5y ago

This is more or less true in Ethiopia too. The length of the day doesn't vary much there, but by convention the clock is offset by six hours, which makes for great fun when you arrange to meet somebody and have to establish whether or not you mean "Ethiopian time". Noon to us is six o'clock to them. They're also on the Julian calendar, giving rise to their old tourism slogan "13 months of sunshine".