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Mount Athos, the “Autonomous Monastic State” of Greece (2016)
- pcmaffey 5y agoYour regular reminder that Anathem is a fantastic book. It explores different (non-religous) ideas of monastic life, and also features time-keeping outside regular society's sense of time...
- eatonphil 5y agoThe time zone issues sound fun: > A visit to Mount Athos also involves literal time travel. The monasteries there still go by Byzantine time, in which the day begins at sunset, not midnight, so the time zone changes literally every day. Visitors may have to set their watches back by as much as seven hours as they cross the border. And don't forget to change the date as well. Mount Athos never adopted the new-fangled 16th-century Gregorian calendar; they still use the Julian calendar of the Roman Empire, which lags 13 days behind. It's almost two weeks ago there!
- rwmj 5y agoAnd no entry in the timezone database :-( https://github.com/eggert/tz/search?q=athos https://github.com/eggert/tz/search?q=athos But then if they have no computers, maybe that doesn't matter.
- colejohnson66 5y agoThe constant "time zone" changes might throw a wrench into calculating the offsets. How far in advance can we calculate sunrise/sunset times?
- mschuster91 5y agoInfinite, there is a mathematical formula: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunrise_equation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunrise_equation
- Arubis 5y agoDepends on what you mean by sunrise/sunset. “The relative position of the sun’s edge drops below/rises above the tangent of the average surface at sea level” is pretty easy to calculate many years out; the complications are deviations in Earth’s orbit. “I can/can’t see the sun anymore” depends on local weather, good luck.
- registeredcorn 5y ago> “I can/can’t see the sun anymore” depends on local weather For anyone wanting to know a bit more about why this is, here's some additional details: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-sj868IzNrk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-sj868IzNrk https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmospheric_refraction https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmospheric_refraction Technically, one might also argue something weird like, "If I can see sunlight, it's still daytime" in which case a different phenomina would come into play: https://www.atoptics.co.uk/highsky/zod1.htm https://www.atoptics.co.uk/highsky/zod1.htm https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zodiacal_light https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zodiacal_light What this all comes down to is, roughly speaking, even after the sun has technically set, there's still a bit of leeway before we no longer see the sun/sunlight due additional factors.
- at_a_remove 5y agoI am frustrated in the faintness of memory, but I dimly recollect an area which, for about two years, altered time every day so that noon was when the sun was directly over head. Something Royal Time, or something Solar Time. There are some weird time zones out there.
- flatiron 5y agono women and no computers. do they have a sign up list?
- elorant 5y agoThey have computers. Some monasteries are modernized and they use computers to digitize old documents and books, or for daily works.
- srcreigh 5y agoThere's at least one computer on Mt Athos. I've heard a first hand story about a monk there who takes nice photos of animals. He just goes for walks and says, for example, "Snake, come here let me take your photo!" So the snake swims across the lake for a good close up. You can get lots of great photos that way.
- ChainOfFools 5y agoI know for certain that, from 1997 onward, there was at least one Amiga 2000 on Athos (specifically, in Vatopedi) because it used to be mine. How long it stayed there, or whether (given that it was originly a N.American, thus 60hz/NTSC edition, though perhaps it could detect and switch to PAL operation) it was ever even plugged in, I never found out. I'm not even sure the monk who I gave the system to (staying in the US for study) had any particular plan for it, though he did know his way around the machine just well enough to run tetris and wordperfect.
- unyttigfjelltol 5y agoWhen they tap the chestnut at 3:30am for prayer, is that a bedtime event (their time) or a daybreak event (standard timekeeping)?
- kgeist 5y ago>Mount Athos never adopted the new-fangled 16th-century Gregorian calendar; they still use the Julian calendar of the Roman Empire, which lags 13 days behind Russian Orthodox Church also still follows the Julian calendar. Majority of Orthodox countries switched to Gregorian only in the 20th century.
- tut-urut-utut 5y agoMajority of Orthodox Churches didn't switch to Gregorian calendar, some of them did, although some only partially.
- necovek 5y agoIt sounds irrelevant instead, and whoever wrote the article, is obviously being a bit too playful with words. Of course it's not "two weeks ago there", it's just that the date is different: it's as if you tried to use a different calendar system altogether — it's fine, you just need to convert back and forth. FWIW, a bunch of churches (Russian, Serbian, Romanian Orthodox churches) still respect the Julian calendar too, and other than Christmas falling on January 7th in the Gregorian calendar (and Easter calculations using different start points), none of it is particularly notable. Gregorian calendar is not more "correct," it's just better aligned with astronomical events. Astronomers also take middle of the day as the start of the day (look up Julian Days), because noon (Sun at the apex) is what we can actually observe and measure, so that's not something outrageous either. Basically, it's "scandalous" type of reporting on different conventions which obviously have no practical matter.
- joelmichael 5y agoBeing better aligned with astronomical events makes it more correct. The purpose of the calendar is to map the year, the orbit of the Earth around the Sun. The drift in the Julian calendar was not intended. It is a flaw.
- zajio1am 5y agoI would say that the purpose of the calendar is tracking time/days in general. Astronomical events are just used as a tool to do that. Earlier calendars were lunar-based instead of solar-based, as keeping synchronized with moon is easier.
- dangerbird2 5y agoThe solar cycle is extremely important for premodern agricultural societies, since it allows predicting growing and harvesting seasons. If you're going by the Julian calendar and the Autumn equinox is falling on September 10, there's probably going to be confusion as to when the harvest should occur. In the case of the Gregorian Calendar, Catholic countries rely on the Spring Equinox to schedule Easter, and when it started occurring well before March 21, this made it increasingly difficult to synchronize the religious and secular calendars.
- runjake 5y agoTrivia: We used Julian calendar dating on one of our maintenance systems in the US military. Everyone had to learn this dating, and yes it was quite difficult. I asked and never got a good answer on why it was done this way ("Because it's always been this way.") It's been so long ago, I don't remember too many details, but someone else may have a better memory and pipe up. More info: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gregorian_calendar https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gregorian_calendar https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julian_calendar https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julian_calendar
- Grustaf 5y agoA big part of the orthodox church (mostly on the slavic side) also uses the old calendar. That's why Russians "celebrate Christmas in January".
- BucketsMcG 5y agoThis is more or less true in Ethiopia too. The length of the day doesn't vary much there, but by convention the clock is offset by six hours, which makes for great fun when you arrange to meet somebody and have to establish whether or not you mean "Ethiopian time". Noon to us is six o'clock to them. They're also on the Julian calendar, giving rise to their old tourism slogan "13 months of sunshine".
- math_denial 5y agoI often yearn for the "unearthly quiet" and structure of a monastic life. I am not religious but I just feel as if I don't belong in society: I don't care about work, jobs, careers, riches, fame. I would like a life of study, contemplation and silence.
- ModernMech 5y agoIf you don’t care about careers, riches, and fame, and want to engage in a decade or more of quiet contemplation, then join a Ph.D. program. You will be very poor and exist apart from society, where you are neither student nor employee. You can study as much as you want!
- dr_dshiv 5y agoBoth the PhD experience and the monastic experience have a common root in the 6th century BC Pythagorean communities in southern Italy.
- pc86 5y agoAnd yet here you are, posting on an internet tech forum :)
- swayvil 5y agoI relate. I used to live in a communal religious house. Ananda Marga Yoga Society. Vegetarian kitchen. Meditation room. Some rules. Chill people. It was nice. USA culture seems committed to keeping you busy, anxious and offbalance.
- boringg 5y agoWhat's stopping you from attaining that?
- papandada 5y ago"wherever you go, there you are"
- registeredcorn 5y ago
- truthwhisperer 5y agoNo verbal fights no Gucci and dior. Seems like a nice place to rest out a few days
- PanosJee 5y agoMedieval times are still here
- JimWestergren 5y agoWonder if they will get some kind of bonus points in heaven for the streak of daily prayers for more than a thousand years uninterrupted. Don't lose the streak! ;)
- dta5003 5y agoNot just that - monastics practice 'prayer without ceasing', hesychasm. There's a great book "The Way of the Pilgrim" that explores a man's journey to discover what 'prayer without ceasing' means and how it could be possible. There's also a monastery that was called 'the unsleeping ones' where they divided the hours of the day into shifts and had monastics in prayers throughout the day and night continuously.
- prometheus76 5y agoIt's also traditional to hold vigil for an Orthodox Christian who has died for the first three days after their death, where someone is reading aloud the Psalms in the same room as their body the entire time.
- everydaybro 5y agowhy. just why live in the same place for ever not knowing anything over the walls
- makeitdouble 5y agoBTW Greece moving into the EU meant they had to get a special ratified status to keep blocking women access (that would be illegal otherwise) https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?qid=1577994018803&uri=CELEX:11979H/AFI/DCL/04 https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?qid=15779940...
- stavros 5y agoWhich I'm not a fan of, but then again I'm not a fan of the church owning an entire peninsula.
- pyuser583 5y agoThe US Constitution begins with “We the People.” The Greek Constitution begins with “In the name of the Holy and Consubstantial and Indivisible Trinity.” If the EU is going to take counties as they are … this is how Greece is - a state with a very influential established church.
- isitdopamine 5y agoThere are many peninsulas owned by rich people. Of course they get to decide who can enter. Are you against that as well?
- stavros 5y agoOh very much so.
- isitdopamine 5y agoAre you against private property all together? If not, where do you draw the line? Is a private villa acceptable? A private golf course? A hill? A small island? Can I decide who enters my 220 square meters apartment?
- stavros 5y ago
- sliq 5y agoBefore the "woke" people come out of their holes and try to bash this: The concept IS NOT to exclude women, the idea was to move to the most distant place possible, and to live a life far away from society, love, sex, etc. - something everybody should respect. These people living there dont want to harm anybody, and there's no reason to "go there an visit them" or to do any "feminist" stunts. Intention matters.
- everydaybro 5y agoI still feel it's stupid to get far away from society
- humanistbot 5y agoIf the concept is not to exclude women but instead to move to the most distant place possible, then why do they let men from outside visit but not women?
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- teddyh 5y agoPlease don’t argue with people who are either not here or have not expressed any opinion yet. You are literally strawmanning. Argue with actual people and their actual opinions instead of made-up stereotypes.
- sliq 5y agoMy intention was just to clarify this right upfront, as this is common topic in Greece and it's dividing society, for absurd reasons. As this is now #1 on HackerNews, I can already smell why it's there. Violence against women is tabooed, but some monks living in the most distant mountains are the "symbol of the patriarchy".
- teddyh 5y agoWho are you quoting? Are they here? No? Then stop arguing with them here.
- ehnto 5y agoNot too different in reason, but until 1868 some female disciples of a particular religion were banned from climbing Mt Fuji passed a certain point: https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/a-religious-cult-believed-they-could-be-reborn-inside-mount-fujis-womb-caves https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/a-religious-cult-belie... > Not everyone could revel in wonders of Mount Fuji’s lava caves. Until 1868, women were banned from climbing higher than the middle zone of the mountain, ascetics worrying that they would distract men from their religious duties and other traditional taboos.
- Ericson2314 5y agohttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xerxes_Canal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xerxes_Canal is pretty neat too
- Ericson2314 5y agoWith things like this, I always wonder how it was under the Byzantines. Probably not so bad, but probably not flying that flag either.
- Ericson2314 5y agoOh whoops I meant to write the Ottomans. I don't really care how it was under the Byzantines that's not a such an interesting question to me!
- nabla9 5y agoDuring the cold war KGB agents used Mount Athos as a route into the west. Orthodox monks would get visa and eventually citizenship in Greece when they moved to live in Mount Athos. Russian Orthodox church was controlled by the KGB and the Soviet State, so it was easy for them to send spies as bearded monks who would leave after getting citizenship.
- Slippery_John 5y agoThere's a great book by Lois McMaster Bujold called Ethan of Athos that somewhat explores this idea expanded to encompass an entire planet. Technically it's part of a series, but it's standalone. It follows an obstetrician from the planet that has to leave to acquire ovarian tissue cultures they need to produce more children.
- new_guy 5y ago> "Do all woman have haloes?" he wanted to know. What we consider attractive (boobs, ass etc) comes from society. There are tribes where women go around naked with no issue. Back in the Victorian era they used to go ga-ga over ankles. So it'd be interesting exposing* a man like that, whose essentially a blank slate, to a nude woman and seeing what he finds attractive. *no pun intended!
- xdennis 5y ago> What we consider attractive (boobs, ass etc) comes from society. I seriously doubt it. The main things that men find attractive are genetically programmed. It's true that secondary things come from society (ankles as you say, beauty marks, long necks (hence the need for neck rings), etc), but that doesn't mean that a blank slate man would find long necks and breasts equally attractive.
- srcreigh 5y agoThere are exceptions. During the holocaust, Mt Athos sheltered Jewish families including women. Meanwhile, to avoid destruction from Hitler during the German occupation in Greece, they wrote to Hitler asking for his personal protection... which was granted Also, the many female saints and especially the Theotokos (Mary) are prayed to often and are in an important sense present on the peninsula.
- jl6 5y agoFrom another article: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-36378690 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-36378690 "One of the traditions is that the Virgin Mary was blown off course when she was trying to sail to Cyprus and landed on Mount Athos. And she liked it so much that she prayed to her son that she should be given it as her own and he agreed," says Speake. "It's still called 'the garden of the mother of God', dedicated to her glory, and she alone represents her sex on Mount Athos." This applies to both humans and domestic animals, except for cats. "There are a lot of cats around and it's probably a quite a good thing that there are because they are good mousers. They turn a blind eye, as it were, to the fact that there are female cats," says Speake. Like so many rules, it seems to be enforced strictly, except when inconvenient.
- BitwiseFool 5y agoIn this specific instance I see this primarily as utilitarian practicality rather than inconvenience avoidance.
- riffraff 5y agoI suppose it's not as much to do with convenience as it does with sex/celibacy. Sheep are very useful, but present more chances for certain behaviours that monks want to prevent. Hens are likewise allowed, AFAIK.
- carapace 5y ago> Like so many rules, it seems to be enforced strictly, except when... ...cats are involved. ;-)
- sliq 5y agoThe concept IS NOT to exclude women, the idea was to move to the most distant place possible, and to live a life far away from society, love, sex, etc. - something everybody should respect. These people living there dont want to harm anybody, and there's no reason to "go there an visit them" or to do any bizarre "feminist" actions (which happen quite often there). Intention matters. [repost as my comment was deleted by "woke" mod]
- dang 5y agoMods didn't touch your comment or even see it. Users flagged it, and rightly so because it was obviously flamebait. Would you please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and take the intended spirit of this site more to heart? We want thoughtful, curious conversation here, not ideological bashing.
- sliq 5y agoYou have misunderstand what's happening here! This post was #1 on Hackernews, as the article tried to play with common triggers (which somehow worked quite well), letting people believe they are reading about a massive case of sexism - which is not the case here. This topic is often used in the "woke" bubble to literally start a social bushfire on social media pages and news sites. And now it has even reached Hackernews! I think it's important to clarify what's happening here, as most readers are not greek and simply cannot instantly understand the background and/or dont have the cultural sensitivity to judge this topic correctly. This article was spread to misinform, and - surprise surprise - , every critical comment was flagged / deleted for trivial reasons. It's sad to see Hackernews moving into a Twitter-like direction, where facts are ignored, but every words is examined for "correct behaviour" according to "the rules".
- dang 5y agoThe bulk of this thread doesn't match your description at all. There are comments about calendars, monastic lifestyle, even software used by the monasteries (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29511744 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29511744), and so on. Most comments that reference the social controversy aspect are doing so in a thoughtful way. In such a context, a comment like yours is flamebait even if your intention is to correct the record. Comments need to be much more thoughtful, factual, and neutral than that, especially when the topic is one that gets people triggered. As the HN guidelines say: "Comments should get more thoughtful and substantive, not less, as a topic gets more divisive." Making false assumptions about "woke mods" is already a sign that your comment was coming from a place of conflict, not curiosity. I don't mean that in a judgmental way—nearly all of us feel conflictual about these divisive topics. But we all need to learn to recognize that in ourselves and not let it drive our contributions here.
- anonu 5y agoThere's a good 60 Minutes segment on this from a few years back: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6mXl8C4-M_4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6mXl8C4-M_4 I also believe you have to follow the Greek Orthodox religion to be able to visit - they might make some rare exceptions. (might be wrong)
- JKolios 5y agoI personally know a Catholic who had no trouble getting a permit to visit, so I don't think that's true.
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- throwaway_se099 5y ago> I also believe you have to follow the Greek Orthodox religion to be able to visit - they might make some rare exceptions. You need a permit (effectively, a visa) to enter the peninsula, and there is a daily quota. About a tenth of available permits can be issued to non-Orthodox visitors. They don't single out the Greek church from other Orthodox churches (AFAIK). [I researched the entry requirements a couple of years ago out of curiosity, but never tried to actually visit. Something may have changed in the meantime, but somehow I doubt it :)]
- srcreigh 5y agoGreek Orthodox religion is somewhat of a misnomer. There are other Eastern Orthodox churches which are in communion with the church in Greece. The religion is Eastern Orthodox, Greek is a language/hierarchy within orthodoxy. Also, I'm reading a book about Mt Athos now, it was mentioned that a tourist was on the island. That must have taken place ~100 years ago, mind you.
- elorant 5y agoNo, that's not correct. People from other religions are allowed. It's just that there's a daily limit to the amount of people who can enter the region and the analogy is like 10:1 orthodox/non-orthodox. I think it's like 120 people in total, or something like that.
- belorn 5y agoIn gender segregated monasteries, how common was there of rules against inviting members of the opposite sex? As I understand it, there existed many different enclosed religious orders, both for men and women, and most Christian orders seems from a glance to be exclusive. Orphans who grow up in such places must have gotten some very strange perspective about the world.
- prometheus76 5y agoYou're right that most monastic orders are either for women or for men exclusively, but there were some monasteries in Britain that were for both genders in one community, and were led by female abesses, which was unusual. I'm not near my home library, so I can't get you a reference, but it definitely existed, but was definitely out of the ordinary.
- tut-urut-utut 5y agoI remember an interesting story from history books. During the 14th century plague, Serbian emperor and empress asked for a safe place at Athos peninsula. They were granted access, but the empress needed to be carried away all the time, and carpets needs to be put before her whenever she goes anywhere. It worked out because the rule was not that women are not allowed there, but because "women may not put step on the holy ground of Athos peninsula".
- NKosmatos 5y agoOne of the bad aspects of religions are such restrictions that have no base whatsoever. If we omit this anachronism, Agion Oros, as it's commonly called in Greece, is a nice place to visit (Christian men only) with an unspoiled environment and peaceful way of living. It's common for many Greeks to visit at least once this special place (something like Hajj/Hadji), but in recent times this has been declining. There are 20 monasteries [0], not all of them Greek and it's true that there are many daily things performed different than our ways. [0] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Karta_Athos.PNG https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Karta_Athos.PNG
- throwawaygal7 5y agoThe monks have no reason that they forbid women? Just cause? INTERESTING.
- dang 5y agoIf you keep posting flamewar comments we will have to ban this account. We've already had to ask you about this. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- Grustaf 5y agoWhat are these "restrictions that have no base whatsoever"? Are you referring to "Christian men only"? Surely you can see the basis of a male monastery complex only allowing male Christian guests? Would you be equally upset at a Buddhist convent only allowing Buddhist women as guests?
- NKosmatos 5y agoNo, the problem is not with the rules of the monasteries, but with the rules of our religion against women. There are no Greek Orthodox women priests, despite the fact that we have many women Saints! And just to be clear, I’m against all religions that are discriminating people and putting them into groups.
- Christopgr 5y agoWell, the company I work for builds the hotel system for two of the biggest monasteries! (It's a super outdated .NET Framework + webforms website for which, over the years, they have requested micro-changes to the fullest extent so it's really made to measure now, I am pretty sure it will never be upgraded) The two monks I have spoken with are real sweethearts, but they sound really bored and idle to me. They do love speaking with my female coworker though which is, eh, kinda funny. :p
- lukebuehler 5y agoSo interesting! I have been to the the mountain a few times, and once I get to know the life of a specific monastery better, I’m always surprised that there is quite bit of technology, especially computers. I think many monks have laptops now too. I’m sure some are lurking here on HN.
- dr_dshiv 5y agoThe peninsula was on the invasion route of Xerxes I, who spent three years excavating the Xerxes Canal across the isthmus to allow the passage of his invasion fleet in 483 BC. After the death of Alexander the Great, the architect Dinocrates (Deinokrates) proposed carving the entire mountain into a statue of Alexander.
- AlbertCory 5y agoThe comments prove once again, as if proof was needed, that the easiest way to provoke an argument with a bunch of hackers is to bring up date-time.
- cblconfederate 5y agoTalk about holding a gripe: > The peninsula was raided by Catalan mercenaries in the 14th century in the so-called Catalan vengeance due to which the entry of people of Catalan origin was prohibited until 2005. It seems Catalans are old troublemakers
- raptorraver 5y agoI had a two week pilgrimage to Mt Athos on Summer 2019. It was literally a trip to another world. We wondered around the peninsula and visited few monasteries and met wonderful people living there. Happy to see this on HN. If anyone has any questions I'm more than happy to answer those. Btw, there's a great documentary about Mt. Athos that I think really expresses the ehtos of the place: https://youtu.be/U5pwfLRI-R8 https://youtu.be/U5pwfLRI-R8
- kippster 5y agoHow feasible would it be to do a pilgrimage there without knowing Greek?
- raptorraver 5y agoI was traveling with a guide who knew Greek and had visited Mt. Athos at least tens of times. It was very valuable as he knew monks from different monasteries and arranged visas and accommodations. But during my trip I also met few travellers who had arranged everything themselves and didn't speak any Greek. You can stay at a monastery one night without a charge, meals included but I think it's suggested that you book it in advance because some monasteries have limited capacity for pilgrims.
- _sunshine_ 5y agoYou can get by with English, but you won't understand the service (which is in the monastery's main language, e.g. Greek/Russian/etc).
- raptorraver 5y agoWorth to mention that even some native greeks and russians have hard time understanding the services as russian monasteries are using Church Slavonic [1] and greek monasteries very old version of the Greek. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_Slavonic https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_Slavonic
- 0xbadcafebee 5y ago
- unfocused 5y agoInteresting timing of this post. A priest from Hamatoura Monastery in Lebanon (https://lebanonuntravelled.com/hamatoura-monastery-kousba/ https://lebanonuntravelled.com/hamatoura-monastery-kousba/), just died it was announced he is to be buried at Mount Athos. Hamatoura appears to be of similar style of build, high up on a cliff....or rather in a cliff!
- nikolay 5y agoI've been there once with my son for 4 days, had only 2 hours of sleep a day, no coffee, and didn't feel tired at all. You really feel you're on a different planet there!
- mitchbob 5y agoAt the end of the book The Broken Road [1], the great adventurer and writer Patrick Leigh Fermor writes about his stay on Mount Athos. This followed his 1930's journey, almost entirely on foot, from Holland down the Rhine and then along the Danube to Istanbul. The book and the two others about his trip are some of my all-time favorite bedtime reading. There's more on Mount Athos on a website devoted to Fermor: [2] [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/09/books/review/patrick-leigh-fermors-broken-road.html https://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/09/books/review/patrick-leig... (Archived: https://archive.ph/uAM3B https://archive.ph/uAM3B ) [2] https://patrickleighfermor.org/2011/04/30/mount-athos-a-visit-to-the-holy-mountain/ https://patrickleighfermor.org/2011/04/30/mount-athos-a-visi...
- tsoukase 5y agoMt Athos has its own scandal: Esphigmenou Monastery [0], one of the most religiously fanatic places on earth. In short, the monks have seized the building for decades and deny any contact with anyone not heretic, while the official head lies in a safe place outside of Mt. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esphigmenou https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esphigmenou