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Plan Ahead for Phase Out of 3G Cellular Networks and Service

76 points by speedcoder 5y ago

PaulHoule 5y ago
Newer phone networks are much more efficient than old ones. For a certain amount of 3G spectrum the carrier can serve more customers at higher data rates with 4G or 5G. From their viewpoint it is expensive to keep serving 3G customers.
- ClumsyPilot 5y ago
  Ironically 2g will still be around forever as a fallback and so much industrisl equipment relies on it At least thats what uk operators told me
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  - anttisalmela 5y ago
    That's what happening in Finland too. All operators have announced that 3G will be switched off in 2023.
  - skrause 5y ago
    GSM can easily share a frequency block with LTE/5G, so it's much easier to keep it around. 3G needs a whole 5 MHz frequency block for itself, but could you use the same block and assign 4.5 MHz to LTE or 5G and just 0.5 MHz for a few GSM legacy devices. That's why it makes sense to turn off 3G, but keep GSM for older devices.
  - yaantc 5y ago
    In many places yes, but still with a much reduced bandwidth allocations. Newer generations increase the spectral efficiency, so more throughput can be supported on the same spectrum. So the operators tend to move spectrum from old to new generations. This is not immediate and there are a lot of differences from one operator to the next: in an area with low demand it's more cost efficient to keep using the old hardware as much as possible for example, until at some point using new more efficient hardware is cheaper than maintaining the old one. Then there are contractual obligations: some 2G is kept around to support industrial M2M applications with contracts covering 10 to 15 years of service for example. Which is why there's quite a lot of differences from operator to operator. Still, the trend is always there. What changes is the transition speed.
  - majjam 5y ago
    Thats good to know thank you. I like to fall back on 2G phone rather than a smartphone from time to time.
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  - g_p 5y ago
    The UK has recently agreed with the industry to phase out 2G by 2033, as mentioned in another comment here. I imagine there will be a fair bit of industrial equipment and smart meters needing replaced as a result!
  - throwaway74737 5y ago
    I still use GSM daily in the US with a few new and classic phones. The technology is at just the right level with only calls and some texting.
  - wavesquid 5y ago
    As far as I know, since mid-2018, all 2G networks are offline in Australia. I've seen similar articles for other countries.
  - mdasen 5y ago
    In the US, that won't be the case. AT&T shut down GSM at the end of 2016. Verizon will be shutting down its 2G/3G CDMA network at the end of 2022. T-Mobile is also slated to shut down its 2G GSM network at the end of 2022. As others have pointed out, 2G GSM uses less spectrum (not for the same usage, but as a base) with 0.2MHz channels rather than 5MHz channels. There's been some stuff talking about T-Mobile running GSM inside the guard bands of their LTE network (dead space between channels). Still, it seems like they're also going to be shutting it down. T-Mobile's GSM network is pretty limited with maybe a third of the coverage of their LTE and 5G networks. It doesn't use any low-band spectrum so it performs pretty poorly. They also haven't been expanding it over the past 7 years or so, preferring to put their effort into LTE and now 5G. They did keep GSM alive a lot longer than AT&T (6 years longer), but it seems like the reasons for keeping it alive are dwindling compared to the cost.
  - ksec 5y ago
    That used to be the case, ( ~2018 ) when MNO around the world have a similar stance, have 2G as Fall Back, and switching off 3G. But more and more operators are now thinking of the idea switching off both 2G and 3G within the next 5-10 years. So their whole network will be IP based. I think that greatly depends how much they can continue to milk those 2G / 3G equipment. And the pandemic has speed things up a little bit.
- superkuh 5y ago
  Yes. 4G can stuff 300% more data hertz for hertz bandwidth compared to 3G. But 5G only does about 15-20% more data hertz for hertz than 4G. It really is a very minor increase in speed. All advertisements about 5G speed are really advertising for limited availability 3.5 GHz and mm-wave deployments in new spectrum... but of course the telcos are now realizing this spectrum, even the half gigahertz they stole of C band, doesn't actually propagate well around Earth instead of straight up and down. If speed alone were the desire, upgrading to 5G standard would not be worth it for anyone. What it does offer is vastly improved minimum latency and easier modularity in network backends. So realistically, this shutting down of 3G should have happened when 4G came in if speed demands for spectrum were what mattered. But of course back then there weren't enough users to really justify it even if the speed argument applied more then than now. 2G and 3G standards have their place and keeping a 2 MHz channel open for them is not going to get in anyone's way, on the towers, or spectrum-wise.
  - mdasen 5y ago
    > 5G only does about 15-20% more data hertz for hertz than 4G At low-band, it's often quoted as 20%, but when you get to mid-band it's a lot more. That's one of the reasons there's been a mad-dash for mid-band spectrum. I'd also note that the radio standards are made to evolve. LTE wasn't nearly as efficient as it was when it was introduced which is why, for a time, HSPA+ networks were able to compete with LTE. > but of course the telcos are now realizing this spectrum, even the half gigahertz they stole of C band, doesn't actually propagate well around Earth instead of straight up and down The propagation isn't really a surprise and the idea it was stolen is terribly biased. The incumbents on that spectrum were paid huge sums for it and moving expenses. It does propagate well enough that it will be very meaningful. T-Mobile is seeing amazing gains using the 2.5GHz spectrum that they got through their merger with Sprint. They already cover around 60% of the US population with mid-band 5G. 3.5GHz won't propagate as well, but there are ways to overcome that like having the towers transmit at higher power and then having lower-frequency spectrum handle the uplink from the handset. The three carriers didn't spend nearly $100B for something worthless and they aren't realizing its propagation as some sort of surprise. > 2G and 3G standards have their place and keeping a 2 MHz channel open for them is not going to get in anyone's way, on the towers, or spectrum-wise Running a 3G UMTS network requires 10MHz of spectrum. 10MHz of spectrum can be pretty meaningful. CDMA uses 2.5MHz for voice and 2.5MHz for data and maybe you're thinking of that, but it's still 5MHz to have both voice and data on a CDMA network. Things can certainly be kept around, but it means less for other stuff.
Shadonototra 5y ago
they finally woke up after realizing china is ahead already with 6G in the works https://techwireasia.com/2021/09/huawei-is-charged-to-have-china-at-the-forefront-of-the-6g-race-against-us-japan/ https://techwireasia.com/2021/09/huawei-is-charged-to-have-c...
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  - Shadonototra 5y ago
    it is linked, you just refuse to admit it this is common in the west, you try to find excuses to what ever agenda your government has as a result you fall behind on many fields, including education it's no wonder 5G still isn't the standard, and yet you try to find excuses that's what happen when old people rule your country and economy, they made decisions because they don't want to risk what they have for the few years they have left on this planet now ask yourself, why what's blocking from having 5G everywhere? despise being the "richest?" country on the planet what's preventing it? why are they trying to push 5G only just now? they didn't have the tech "until now" they didn't want to rely on china because they were the one with the tech? or it simply was just they didn't want to invest because it would cost too much, so they focus on selected tiny areas only and forget about country side because "they don't need it"? > debates = "flamebait that detracts from the discusion"? how come? that's because you chose to be blind that we stuck with 2G-3G in 2021
rubylark 5y ago
I worked very very briefly in the wireless service industry on UAPs and large scale cell antenna receivers. To me, this doesn't seem as much a conspiracy to obsolete old phones as a practical stance to not need to have two copies of antennas on every tower. The old antennas used in 3G don't go up to the frequencies needed by true 5G, so they need new ones. If they're developing new ones, they don't want to have to keep supporting old standards as well, so they don't code for it (and possibly don't even support it in the hardware). So now there are no more 3G receivers on any towers and therefore your 3G phone stops working. As a side effect, anyone still using a 3G device needs to buy a new one, but I don't think that is the main driver for the move.
- dathinab 5y ago
  I think it's also about: - later recycling frequencies - reducing maintenance burden (by not maintaining 3G) - as far as I remember 3G as serious security vulnerabilities Also most smart phones only a lifetime of 3-5 years at most, and even then people tend to replace them early due to braking them and for vanity. So there are probably not too many smart phones around which do not support 4G and which are not a security liability. Through probably a bunch of fallback feature phones or other "less common" (then smartphones) kinds of phones. Also it differs by country.
  - CountSessine 5y ago
    later recycling frequencies Yeah this is what I would think. My understanding is that in North America a lot of plum 800MHz bands are currently occupied by 3G umts. edit - yes, both Verizon and AT&T are dedicating a single band of 850MHz spectrum for umts. So this would let them move that to 4G or 5G.
- KronisLV 5y ago
  > As a side effect, anyone still using a 3G device needs to buy a new one, but I don't think that is the main driver for the move. Despite the positives, this feels kind of sad. If you look at software, many of the older browsers out there can't even open simple modern webpages. After years, i grow weary of the churn, i've gone from Windows 98 to Windows 10 now, through numerous versions of Debian/Ubuntu and CentOS/Fedora, From Android 2.1 all the way to 10 currently. I have had software and even hardware be ripped out of my hands every few years, because someone decided to change something and deprecate the older stuff. But what is the alternative? Use old and sadly insecure hardware/software? Or keep up with everything and partake in more consumerism than i should? Just some musings on the topic, because watching Bryan Lunduke talk about old computers from another time when not everything old was considered "vulnerable" and "a risk" (due to not having much network capability at all) was interesting and enjoyable. I wonder what i'll be working with in 20 years and whether the older Debian and Windows XP versions will still hold a place in my heart.
FemmeAndroid 5y ago
From the Hacker News Guidelines [1]: > Otherwise please use the original title, unless it is misleading or linkbait; don't editorialize. The title of the article is "Plan Ahead for Phase Out of 3G Cellular Networks and Service", which seems accurate. The current post's title is "5G obsoletes 3G? forced obsolesence [sic] for profit?" [1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
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speedcoder 5y ago
Is there any way to fix my old 3G phone to continue to work under 5G?
- dathinab 5y ago
  unlikely as long as you can't switch out the modem and antenna. So you would need: - a new antenna - a new modem - a driver working with your CPU/OS, which is likely to not be the case - a way to replace the parts Sometimes the modem is part of the CPU package, making it impossible. Driver limitations make it often even impossible to produce "the same phone but with just another modem", not even speaking about upgrading. The best chance to update to 5G is in laptops where the modem is on a separate Bord, but even then you have the problem of firmware lock-down and interface incompatibilities.
  - all2 5y ago
    A single board computer could get you close to these requirements, as long as there are USB dongles for everything [0]. That takes care of 1, 2, and 4. As for drivers, I'm not sure if you can pipe voice calls across these (VOIP, yes, but cellular calls? I have no clue how that works). [0] https://www.amazon.com/4g-usb-modem/s?k=4g+usb+modem https://www.amazon.com/4g-usb-modem/s?k=4g+usb+modem
    - richardwhiuk 5y ago
      with SIP ATA you can probably get it to work with enough work. I don't know whether any actually support enough of TS 24.229 to actually work with a VoLTE network.
- nousermane 5y ago
  Depending on your operator/locality, and whether you're okay with being limited to voice and barely a 100 kbit/s of data, it might "just work", no need to do anything special. Your 3G phone will happily fall back to 2G/2.75G (a.k.a. GSM/GPRS/EDGE), where such network is available. For example, in the Netherlands, KPN, the last operator to switch off 3G, is planning to do so at the end of this month. 2G, on the other hand, is still in the air, with commitments to keep it alive until 2025, possibly longer. Source (in Dutch): https://www.kpn.com/zakelijk/blog/de-toekomst-van-iot-vraagt-om-meer-dan-2g.htm https://www.kpn.com/zakelijk/blog/de-toekomst-van-iot-vraagt...
speedcoder 5y ago
What is your favorite thing that was built to last? This is, perhaps, a cheesy country song that speaks to the idea https://youtu.be/E4i2fC1U38s https://youtu.be/E4i2fC1U38s . Is "built to last" an obsolete notion?
- notinty 5y ago
  This probably would have been more appropriate as an Ask HN. Editorializing the headline like that is a no-go.
  - speedcoder 5y ago
    Understood. Fixed headline.
  - speedcoder 5y ago
    Good idea. Please reply here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29510819 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29510819 .
- micromacrofoot 5y ago
  Were things actually "built to last" or really "built to be maintained"?
can16358p 5y ago
"T-Mobile announced that it will finish shutting down Sprint's 3G CDMA network by March 31, 2022 and Sprint's 4G LTE network by June 30, 2022." Isn't it a bit early to shut down 4G LTE? Does everyone and everywhere have that access to 5G now?
- nradov 5y ago
  T-Mobile is keeping their own 4G LTE network for now. They're only decommissioning the acquired Sprint network which has mostly redundant coverage.
officeplant 5y ago
I work in the Fire Industry, we've been selling LTE communicators for fire panels like hotcakes these last few years. Mostly due to so many sites not having good enough internet connections for IP-DACTs, or IT refusing to deal with fire alarm panels on their networks like putting us on a VLAN and giving us access to the outside world. I understand their hesitancy, but so many panels have built in IP communication with useful features now. We're lucky enough that the vast majority of our clients moved off of 3G in this last wave of fire alarm system updates or they went straight from land lines to LTE as the land lines become less commonly used. The most annoying thing is the sheer volume of spam mail I get from 3G advocates trying to convince us to contact regulators to stop 3G sunsetting. I'm sorry angry emailer, but we've long since moved on just like we always have when a technology gets put to pasture.
- nekoashide 5y ago
  Even if it cost nothing to upgrade you would have industry trade groups shouting from the rooftops on how terrible this is and how bad 4G is. In a previous job that required PCI compliance not even the threat of losing the ability to process credit cards would stop these trade groups.
OJFord 5y ago
Related, 'UK to ditch 2G & 3G by 2033': https://eandt.theiet.org/content/articles/2021/12/uk-to-switch-off-2g-and-3g-by-2033-to-boost-uk-telecoms-networks/ https://eandt.theiet.org/content/articles/2021/12/uk-to-swit... (I did submit it here, but no discussion to link.)
OldHand2018 5y ago
A lot of people in car forums are super upset about this and angry with their specific automaker. But of course, it is happening to all of them that haven't moved off of 3G. https://www.toyota.com/audio-multimedia/support/3g-faq/ https://www.toyota.com/audio-multimedia/support/3g-faq/ https://lexus2.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/10537/~/3g-wireless-services-update https://lexus2.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/10537/~/... https://www.subaru.com/3g-network-retirement.html?SIE=9ad00c09f587b186b9b2e99c2c0fc542543c822d2068ec062cd6ad185c5e5934&delivery_id=1259273414 https://www.subaru.com/3g-network-retirement.html?SIE=9ad00c... Etc. https://autobala.com/how-3g-shutdown-in-2022-will-ruin-your-car/271169/ https://autobala.com/how-3g-shutdown-in-2022-will-ruin-your-... Amazing that Honda have current cars affected.
- sircastor 5y ago
  A few years back I got a handful of letters about getting my Nissan LEAF's radio updated from 2g to 3g. They wanted to charge me $200 USD for it. I didn't bother and it's ended up resulting in very little change for me - Mostly features I didn't really use. It's nice to know what just a few years later I'd be facing the same problem again.
  - OldHand2018 5y ago
    I've been told that on my Subaru, if I subscribe to the services that need it, they will do the upgrade for free. But if I don't subscribe, they won't do it at all. I'm fine with that, I am unreasonably against subscriptions, lol.
    - jtbayly 5y ago
      I’m unreasonably against both subscriptions and cars having modems.
      - enos_feedler 5y ago
        I suppose thats fine if your car isn’t doing any of the driving. Otherwise I might want my car talking to the outside world.
sharikous 5y ago
What are the technical characteristics of 3G and LTE? Will we lose a very useful fallback? I ask because I have a very modern device which is basically useless when I put there a SIM of an operator which has LTE only, and works well with a 3G/LTE operator. I am speaking of the countryside and I wonder if the problem is the operator coverage or the technology utilized.
- CountSessine 5y ago
  Disclaimer: I'm not a dark-mage-of-the-smith-chart - I'm just a dude who had to take a course in EM once. Honestly, I'm pretty ignorant and you should take all of this with a grain of salt. My understanding is that the noise model is very different - that LTE/ofdm are very good at getting around radio noise by-frequency - ie a bunch of interference at a particular frequency. But 3G/umts/cdma was very good at dealing with multi-path distortion because of the whole chip-code-orthogonality property and the fact that the radio would have multiple time-shifted taps on the antenna. That would mean that in theory LTE would be better at dealing with persistent environmental noise, but 3G would be better in a city where the phone is receiving that same signal but reflected against buildings and slightly time-shifted. I doubt this makes any difference in your case - it's probably just that 3G is typically on 850MHz and that LTE is probably on a higher frequency like 2300MHz which wouldn't propagate as well.
londons_explore 5y ago
It's shameful that 3G wasn't designed to be supported forever, and be backwards compatible with 4G, 5G, 6G, etc. Just like WiFi standards are (mostly) backwards compatible forever. From a design perspective, all that's needed is a way to timeslice or frequency slice the new and old signals. Then the cost of supporting old 3G devices drops as fewer and fewer of them exist, and dynamic time and frequency allocation can give more and more to 4G/5G/etc. The infrastructure cost of 3G is large, but that needn't be the case - there are opensource projects that can run all the computation for a whole 3G network, auth, encryption, etc. on a single PC.
tomxor 5y ago
For contrast. In the UK 3G has another 12 years ahead of it [0] Not everyone uses a smartphone with the constant consumer churn. I've had a good quality Nokia "dumb" phone for 10 years and have no reason to buy a new one, I need a new £10 battery soon and then it will keep going for another ten years in this country. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-59583783 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-59583783
- xnyan 5y ago
  >...3G has another 12 years ahead of it "Assembly Research founder Matthew Howett told BBC News the change would probably come sooner than the government's 2033 deadline." 12 years is the deadline by which it must be done, not how long it will be around. 3G will be shut off in as as little as a year in some cases: "BT revealed plans to phase out 3G by 2023, and 2G later in the decade."
  - tomxor 5y ago
    Well that sucks. Also a strange quote from BT since they don't actually have a mobile network.
    - markfenton 5y ago
      BT bought EE in 2016
      - tomxor 5y ago
        ah, that explains a lot....
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karmicthreat 5y ago
I feel bad for some of my customers that I was shipping 3g routers until mid-2018. Looks like a couple automakers were shipping 3g equipment in 2019. I think several platforms like Tank Links are also going to have a purge when cheap 3g goes dark. I wish there were some super cheap sparse data plans that worked out in the middle of nowhere USA. Everything out there want 10K units for get good discounts.
cdnsteve 5y ago
What about all the IoT stuff out in the field that can't be easily upgraded?
- criddell 5y ago
  It will stop working.
  - HeyLaughingBoy 5y ago
    Yup. There have been warnings about this from the cell network providers for years. Anyone caught with their pants down has certainly been ignoring the problem.
mikewarot 5y ago
Wait, the FCC now tells me that ALL 3g is going away, T-Mobile made it seem like only the sprint part of the network was going away. So, now I have to ditch my beloved Built To Last Samsung T-199. 8( [Edit] Upon re-reading, maybe not?
alvarlagerlof 5y ago
Interesting. VoLTE is not at all standard or on all phones over here due to the carriers only enabling it for the phones that they sell with their plans.

76 points by speedcoder 5y ago

Newer phone networks are much more efficient than old ones. For a certain amount of 3G spectrum the carrier can serve more customers at higher data rates with 4G or 5G. From their viewpoint it is expensive to keep serving 3G customers.

ClumsyPilot 5y ago
Ironically 2g will still be around forever as a fallback and so much industrisl equipment relies on it At least thats what uk operators told me
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- anttisalmela 5y ago
  That's what happening in Finland too. All operators have announced that 3G will be switched off in 2023.
- skrause 5y ago
  GSM can easily share a frequency block with LTE/5G, so it's much easier to keep it around. 3G needs a whole 5 MHz frequency block for itself, but could you use the same block and assign 4.5 MHz to LTE or 5G and just 0.5 MHz for a few GSM legacy devices. That's why it makes sense to turn off 3G, but keep GSM for older devices.
- yaantc 5y ago
  In many places yes, but still with a much reduced bandwidth allocations. Newer generations increase the spectral efficiency, so more throughput can be supported on the same spectrum. So the operators tend to move spectrum from old to new generations. This is not immediate and there are a lot of differences from one operator to the next: in an area with low demand it's more cost efficient to keep using the old hardware as much as possible for example, until at some point using new more efficient hardware is cheaper than maintaining the old one. Then there are contractual obligations: some 2G is kept around to support industrial M2M applications with contracts covering 10 to 15 years of service for example. Which is why there's quite a lot of differences from operator to operator. Still, the trend is always there. What changes is the transition speed.
- majjam 5y ago
  Thats good to know thank you. I like to fall back on 2G phone rather than a smartphone from time to time.
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- g_p 5y ago
  The UK has recently agreed with the industry to phase out 2G by 2033, as mentioned in another comment here. I imagine there will be a fair bit of industrial equipment and smart meters needing replaced as a result!
- throwaway74737 5y ago
  I still use GSM daily in the US with a few new and classic phones. The technology is at just the right level with only calls and some texting.
- wavesquid 5y ago
  As far as I know, since mid-2018, all 2G networks are offline in Australia. I've seen similar articles for other countries.
- mdasen 5y ago
  In the US, that won't be the case. AT&T shut down GSM at the end of 2016. Verizon will be shutting down its 2G/3G CDMA network at the end of 2022. T-Mobile is also slated to shut down its 2G GSM network at the end of 2022. As others have pointed out, 2G GSM uses less spectrum (not for the same usage, but as a base) with 0.2MHz channels rather than 5MHz channels. There's been some stuff talking about T-Mobile running GSM inside the guard bands of their LTE network (dead space between channels). Still, it seems like they're also going to be shutting it down. T-Mobile's GSM network is pretty limited with maybe a third of the coverage of their LTE and 5G networks. It doesn't use any low-band spectrum so it performs pretty poorly. They also haven't been expanding it over the past 7 years or so, preferring to put their effort into LTE and now 5G. They did keep GSM alive a lot longer than AT&T (6 years longer), but it seems like the reasons for keeping it alive are dwindling compared to the cost.
- ksec 5y ago
  That used to be the case, ( ~2018 ) when MNO around the world have a similar stance, have 2G as Fall Back, and switching off 3G. But more and more operators are now thinking of the idea switching off both 2G and 3G within the next 5-10 years. So their whole network will be IP based. I think that greatly depends how much they can continue to milk those 2G / 3G equipment. And the pandemic has speed things up a little bit.
superkuh 5y ago
Yes. 4G can stuff 300% more data hertz for hertz bandwidth compared to 3G. But 5G only does about 15-20% more data hertz for hertz than 4G. It really is a very minor increase in speed. All advertisements about 5G speed are really advertising for limited availability 3.5 GHz and mm-wave deployments in new spectrum... but of course the telcos are now realizing this spectrum, even the half gigahertz they stole of C band, doesn't actually propagate well around Earth instead of straight up and down. If speed alone were the desire, upgrading to 5G standard would not be worth it for anyone. What it does offer is vastly improved minimum latency and easier modularity in network backends. So realistically, this shutting down of 3G should have happened when 4G came in if speed demands for spectrum were what mattered. But of course back then there weren't enough users to really justify it even if the speed argument applied more then than now. 2G and 3G standards have their place and keeping a 2 MHz channel open for them is not going to get in anyone's way, on the towers, or spectrum-wise.
- mdasen 5y ago
  > 5G only does about 15-20% more data hertz for hertz than 4G At low-band, it's often quoted as 20%, but when you get to mid-band it's a lot more. That's one of the reasons there's been a mad-dash for mid-band spectrum. I'd also note that the radio standards are made to evolve. LTE wasn't nearly as efficient as it was when it was introduced which is why, for a time, HSPA+ networks were able to compete with LTE. > but of course the telcos are now realizing this spectrum, even the half gigahertz they stole of C band, doesn't actually propagate well around Earth instead of straight up and down The propagation isn't really a surprise and the idea it was stolen is terribly biased. The incumbents on that spectrum were paid huge sums for it and moving expenses. It does propagate well enough that it will be very meaningful. T-Mobile is seeing amazing gains using the 2.5GHz spectrum that they got through their merger with Sprint. They already cover around 60% of the US population with mid-band 5G. 3.5GHz won't propagate as well, but there are ways to overcome that like having the towers transmit at higher power and then having lower-frequency spectrum handle the uplink from the handset. The three carriers didn't spend nearly $100B for something worthless and they aren't realizing its propagation as some sort of surprise. > 2G and 3G standards have their place and keeping a 2 MHz channel open for them is not going to get in anyone's way, on the towers, or spectrum-wise Running a 3G UMTS network requires 10MHz of spectrum. 10MHz of spectrum can be pretty meaningful. CDMA uses 2.5MHz for voice and 2.5MHz for data and maybe you're thinking of that, but it's still 5MHz to have both voice and data on a CDMA network. Things can certainly be kept around, but it means less for other stuff.

Shadonototra 5y ago

they finally woke up after realizing china is ahead already with 6G in the works https://techwireasia.com/2021/09/huawei-is-charged-to-have-china-at-the-forefront-of-the-6g-race-against-us-japan/ https://techwireasia.com/2021/09/huawei-is-charged-to-have-c...

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- Shadonototra 5y ago
  it is linked, you just refuse to admit it this is common in the west, you try to find excuses to what ever agenda your government has as a result you fall behind on many fields, including education it's no wonder 5G still isn't the standard, and yet you try to find excuses that's what happen when old people rule your country and economy, they made decisions because they don't want to risk what they have for the few years they have left on this planet now ask yourself, why what's blocking from having 5G everywhere? despise being the "richest?" country on the planet what's preventing it? why are they trying to push 5G only just now? they didn't have the tech "until now" they didn't want to rely on china because they were the one with the tech? or it simply was just they didn't want to invest because it would cost too much, so they focus on selected tiny areas only and forget about country side because "they don't need it"? > debates = "flamebait that detracts from the discusion"? how come? that's because you chose to be blind that we stuck with 2G-3G in 2021

rubylark 5y ago

I worked very very briefly in the wireless service industry on UAPs and large scale cell antenna receivers. To me, this doesn't seem as much a conspiracy to obsolete old phones as a practical stance to not need to have two copies of antennas on every tower. The old antennas used in 3G don't go up to the frequencies needed by true 5G, so they need new ones. If they're developing new ones, they don't want to have to keep supporting old standards as well, so they don't code for it (and possibly don't even support it in the hardware). So now there are no more 3G receivers on any towers and therefore your 3G phone stops working. As a side effect, anyone still using a 3G device needs to buy a new one, but I don't think that is the main driver for the move.

dathinab 5y ago
I think it's also about: - later recycling frequencies - reducing maintenance burden (by not maintaining 3G) - as far as I remember 3G as serious security vulnerabilities Also most smart phones only a lifetime of 3-5 years at most, and even then people tend to replace them early due to braking them and for vanity. So there are probably not too many smart phones around which do not support 4G and which are not a security liability. Through probably a bunch of fallback feature phones or other "less common" (then smartphones) kinds of phones. Also it differs by country.
- CountSessine 5y ago
  later recycling frequencies Yeah this is what I would think. My understanding is that in North America a lot of plum 800MHz bands are currently occupied by 3G umts. edit - yes, both Verizon and AT&T are dedicating a single band of 850MHz spectrum for umts. So this would let them move that to 4G or 5G.
KronisLV 5y ago
> As a side effect, anyone still using a 3G device needs to buy a new one, but I don't think that is the main driver for the move. Despite the positives, this feels kind of sad. If you look at software, many of the older browsers out there can't even open simple modern webpages. After years, i grow weary of the churn, i've gone from Windows 98 to Windows 10 now, through numerous versions of Debian/Ubuntu and CentOS/Fedora, From Android 2.1 all the way to 10 currently. I have had software and even hardware be ripped out of my hands every few years, because someone decided to change something and deprecate the older stuff. But what is the alternative? Use old and sadly insecure hardware/software? Or keep up with everything and partake in more consumerism than i should? Just some musings on the topic, because watching Bryan Lunduke talk about old computers from another time when not everything old was considered "vulnerable" and "a risk" (due to not having much network capability at all) was interesting and enjoyable. I wonder what i'll be working with in 20 years and whether the older Debian and Windows XP versions will still hold a place in my heart.

FemmeAndroid 5y ago

From the Hacker News Guidelines [1]: > Otherwise please use the original title, unless it is misleading or linkbait; don't editorialize. The title of the article is "Plan Ahead for Phase Out of 3G Cellular Networks and Service", which seems accurate. The current post's title is "5G obsoletes 3G? forced obsolesence [sic] for profit?" [1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

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speedcoder 5y ago

Is there any way to fix my old 3G phone to continue to work under 5G?

dathinab 5y ago
unlikely as long as you can't switch out the modem and antenna. So you would need: - a new antenna - a new modem - a driver working with your CPU/OS, which is likely to not be the case - a way to replace the parts Sometimes the modem is part of the CPU package, making it impossible. Driver limitations make it often even impossible to produce "the same phone but with just another modem", not even speaking about upgrading. The best chance to update to 5G is in laptops where the modem is on a separate Bord, but even then you have the problem of firmware lock-down and interface incompatibilities.
- all2 5y ago
  A single board computer could get you close to these requirements, as long as there are USB dongles for everything [0]. That takes care of 1, 2, and 4. As for drivers, I'm not sure if you can pipe voice calls across these (VOIP, yes, but cellular calls? I have no clue how that works). [0] https://www.amazon.com/4g-usb-modem/s?k=4g+usb+modem https://www.amazon.com/4g-usb-modem/s?k=4g+usb+modem
  - richardwhiuk 5y ago
    with SIP ATA you can probably get it to work with enough work. I don't know whether any actually support enough of TS 24.229 to actually work with a VoLTE network.
nousermane 5y ago
Depending on your operator/locality, and whether you're okay with being limited to voice and barely a 100 kbit/s of data, it might "just work", no need to do anything special. Your 3G phone will happily fall back to 2G/2.75G (a.k.a. GSM/GPRS/EDGE), where such network is available. For example, in the Netherlands, KPN, the last operator to switch off 3G, is planning to do so at the end of this month. 2G, on the other hand, is still in the air, with commitments to keep it alive until 2025, possibly longer. Source (in Dutch): https://www.kpn.com/zakelijk/blog/de-toekomst-van-iot-vraagt-om-meer-dan-2g.htm https://www.kpn.com/zakelijk/blog/de-toekomst-van-iot-vraagt...

speedcoder 5y ago

What is your favorite thing that was built to last? This is, perhaps, a cheesy country song that speaks to the idea https://youtu.be/E4i2fC1U38s https://youtu.be/E4i2fC1U38s . Is "built to last" an obsolete notion?

notinty 5y ago
This probably would have been more appropriate as an Ask HN. Editorializing the headline like that is a no-go.
- speedcoder 5y ago
  Understood. Fixed headline.
- speedcoder 5y ago
  Good idea. Please reply here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29510819 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29510819 .
micromacrofoot 5y ago
Were things actually "built to last" or really "built to be maintained"?

can16358p 5y ago

"T-Mobile announced that it will finish shutting down Sprint's 3G CDMA network by March 31, 2022 and Sprint's 4G LTE network by June 30, 2022." Isn't it a bit early to shut down 4G LTE? Does everyone and everywhere have that access to 5G now?

nradov 5y ago
T-Mobile is keeping their own 4G LTE network for now. They're only decommissioning the acquired Sprint network which has mostly redundant coverage.

officeplant 5y ago

I work in the Fire Industry, we've been selling LTE communicators for fire panels like hotcakes these last few years. Mostly due to so many sites not having good enough internet connections for IP-DACTs, or IT refusing to deal with fire alarm panels on their networks like putting us on a VLAN and giving us access to the outside world. I understand their hesitancy, but so many panels have built in IP communication with useful features now. We're lucky enough that the vast majority of our clients moved off of 3G in this last wave of fire alarm system updates or they went straight from land lines to LTE as the land lines become less commonly used. The most annoying thing is the sheer volume of spam mail I get from 3G advocates trying to convince us to contact regulators to stop 3G sunsetting. I'm sorry angry emailer, but we've long since moved on just like we always have when a technology gets put to pasture.

nekoashide 5y ago
Even if it cost nothing to upgrade you would have industry trade groups shouting from the rooftops on how terrible this is and how bad 4G is. In a previous job that required PCI compliance not even the threat of losing the ability to process credit cards would stop these trade groups.

OJFord 5y ago

Related, 'UK to ditch 2G & 3G by 2033': https://eandt.theiet.org/content/articles/2021/12/uk-to-switch-off-2g-and-3g-by-2033-to-boost-uk-telecoms-networks/ https://eandt.theiet.org/content/articles/2021/12/uk-to-swit... (I did submit it here, but no discussion to link.)

OldHand2018 5y ago

A lot of people in car forums are super upset about this and angry with their specific automaker. But of course, it is happening to all of them that haven't moved off of 3G. https://www.toyota.com/audio-multimedia/support/3g-faq/ https://www.toyota.com/audio-multimedia/support/3g-faq/ https://lexus2.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/10537/~/3g-wireless-services-update https://lexus2.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/10537/~/... https://www.subaru.com/3g-network-retirement.html?SIE=9ad00c09f587b186b9b2e99c2c0fc542543c822d2068ec062cd6ad185c5e5934&delivery_id=1259273414 https://www.subaru.com/3g-network-retirement.html?SIE=9ad00c... Etc. https://autobala.com/how-3g-shutdown-in-2022-will-ruin-your-car/271169/ https://autobala.com/how-3g-shutdown-in-2022-will-ruin-your-... Amazing that Honda have current cars affected.

sircastor 5y ago
A few years back I got a handful of letters about getting my Nissan LEAF's radio updated from 2g to 3g. They wanted to charge me $200 USD for it. I didn't bother and it's ended up resulting in very little change for me - Mostly features I didn't really use. It's nice to know what just a few years later I'd be facing the same problem again.
- OldHand2018 5y ago
  I've been told that on my Subaru, if I subscribe to the services that need it, they will do the upgrade for free. But if I don't subscribe, they won't do it at all. I'm fine with that, I am unreasonably against subscriptions, lol.
  - jtbayly 5y ago
    I’m unreasonably against both subscriptions and cars having modems.
    - enos_feedler 5y ago
      I suppose thats fine if your car isn’t doing any of the driving. Otherwise I might want my car talking to the outside world.

sharikous 5y ago

What are the technical characteristics of 3G and LTE? Will we lose a very useful fallback? I ask because I have a very modern device which is basically useless when I put there a SIM of an operator which has LTE only, and works well with a 3G/LTE operator. I am speaking of the countryside and I wonder if the problem is the operator coverage or the technology utilized.

CountSessine 5y ago
Disclaimer: I'm not a dark-mage-of-the-smith-chart - I'm just a dude who had to take a course in EM once. Honestly, I'm pretty ignorant and you should take all of this with a grain of salt. My understanding is that the noise model is very different - that LTE/ofdm are very good at getting around radio noise by-frequency - ie a bunch of interference at a particular frequency. But 3G/umts/cdma was very good at dealing with multi-path distortion because of the whole chip-code-orthogonality property and the fact that the radio would have multiple time-shifted taps on the antenna. That would mean that in theory LTE would be better at dealing with persistent environmental noise, but 3G would be better in a city where the phone is receiving that same signal but reflected against buildings and slightly time-shifted. I doubt this makes any difference in your case - it's probably just that 3G is typically on 850MHz and that LTE is probably on a higher frequency like 2300MHz which wouldn't propagate as well.

londons_explore 5y ago

It's shameful that 3G wasn't designed to be supported forever, and be backwards compatible with 4G, 5G, 6G, etc. Just like WiFi standards are (mostly) backwards compatible forever. From a design perspective, all that's needed is a way to timeslice or frequency slice the new and old signals. Then the cost of supporting old 3G devices drops as fewer and fewer of them exist, and dynamic time and frequency allocation can give more and more to 4G/5G/etc. The infrastructure cost of 3G is large, but that needn't be the case - there are opensource projects that can run all the computation for a whole 3G network, auth, encryption, etc. on a single PC.

tomxor 5y ago

For contrast. In the UK 3G has another 12 years ahead of it [0] Not everyone uses a smartphone with the constant consumer churn. I've had a good quality Nokia "dumb" phone for 10 years and have no reason to buy a new one, I need a new £10 battery soon and then it will keep going for another ten years in this country. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-59583783 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-59583783

xnyan 5y ago
>...3G has another 12 years ahead of it "Assembly Research founder Matthew Howett told BBC News the change would probably come sooner than the government's 2033 deadline." 12 years is the deadline by which it must be done, not how long it will be around. 3G will be shut off in as as little as a year in some cases: "BT revealed plans to phase out 3G by 2023, and 2G later in the decade."
- tomxor 5y ago
  Well that sucks. Also a strange quote from BT since they don't actually have a mobile network.
  - markfenton 5y ago
    BT bought EE in 2016
    - tomxor 5y ago
      ah, that explains a lot....
  - deleted 5y ago
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karmicthreat 5y ago

I feel bad for some of my customers that I was shipping 3g routers until mid-2018. Looks like a couple automakers were shipping 3g equipment in 2019. I think several platforms like Tank Links are also going to have a purge when cheap 3g goes dark. I wish there were some super cheap sparse data plans that worked out in the middle of nowhere USA. Everything out there want 10K units for get good discounts.

cdnsteve 5y ago

What about all the IoT stuff out in the field that can't be easily upgraded?

criddell 5y ago
It will stop working.
- HeyLaughingBoy 5y ago
  Yup. There have been warnings about this from the cell network providers for years. Anyone caught with their pants down has certainly been ignoring the problem.

mikewarot 5y ago

Wait, the FCC now tells me that ALL 3g is going away, T-Mobile made it seem like only the sprint part of the network was going away. So, now I have to ditch my beloved Built To Last Samsung T-199. 8( [Edit] Upon re-reading, maybe not?

alvarlagerlof 5y ago

Interesting. VoLTE is not at all standard or on all phones over here due to the carriers only enabling it for the phones that they sell with their plans.