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The Not Just Bikes youtube channel was quite the rabbit hole. It has convinced me that I really hate North American car-centric cities. It's a shame there's bas

The Not Just Bikes youtube channel was quite the rabbit hole. It has convinced me that I really hate North American car-centric cities. It's a shame there's basically no country in the anglosphere designed for pedestrians like most European countries.

ReaLNero 5y ago
If you draw the line at country, sure. But America is huge compared to European nation-states. NYC is very public transportation-oriented. The Northeast corridor Amtrak line also is a big boon!
- quadrangle 5y ago
  but NYC and Amtrak aren't dramatically better than Toronto and Canadian rail issues that NotJustBikes constantly bashes as pathetically mediocre compared to the Netherlands. The U.S. definitely has a range of insanely-awful to decent-enough with small now-premium-priced pockets of great bits (which are almost always pre-car neighborhoods that somehow were spared destruction).
- dougmwne 5y ago
  The itty-bitty bits of America that have any kind of walkable community are incredibly expensive. It’s basically the equivalent of avoiding mediocre American factory food by doing all your shopping at Whole Foods. Why does it have to be a rare luxury to taste what the Europeans have in overflowing abundance?
  - ch4s3 5y ago
    Organic carrots at Whole Foods in NYC are about $1/lb which is slightly less than the average price in France. Food is VERY cheap in the US.
  - arsome 5y ago
    Because what they have flowing in abundance is a loss in many other ways. Public transit is a generally a worse experience in all but the most urban of places, and even then there's often enough problems that make it significantly less desirable. Biking in the winter? Doable, but also pretty miserable in much of the world. People like personal transportation and big detached houses with yards. Car-centric cities are the price we pay for these things. Personally I think it's worth the trade-off, I would have spent the same money on my 2000sqft house as a <400sqft apartment, and having kids and a dog would have been entirely impractical.
    - soco 5y ago
      Which goes to prove that those stroads weren't built by some evil conspiracy, but ordered and enjoyed by a (sizeable?) part of the population. Which is why they are meant to stay in the States, and reviled outside.
    - Rendello 5y ago
      For anyone interested in what _winter_ biking infrastructure could look like, some places in Finland have done a great job. Not for everyone, but popular nonetheless: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uhx-26GfCBU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uhx-26GfCBU
    - bobthepanda 5y ago
      The problem is not really necessarily that the car centric city exists, though it certainly has externalities related to health and the climate. The problem is that only the car centric city exists. Nice walkable places are in extremely short supply and fetch a premium, and so there exist people who buy into the detached house, car centric lifestyle because it is the only thing available at their price point. It is illegal to build the traditional way in most of the country’s land. And making it simply legal to build does not mean that the people who like this lifestyle will be forced to densify.
      - harpersealtako 5y ago
        This is the crux of the issue. I've said it before in HN, but urban density advocates need to focus more on why denser urban neighborhoods are good, rather than focusing on why car-centric suburbs are bad. New urbanists need the support of suburbanites whether they want to admit it or not, railing against people who like having space and privacy is less effective at winning allies than making a solid economic and social case for denser developments. Oftentimes urbanists actually explicitly say they want to "ban surburbs", which does nothing to help their cause or suggest that they are looking for a compromise that involves both dense developments and less dense developments.
        milkytron 5y ago
seoulmetro 5y ago
That's its job. It's there to outrage you, but the reality is it doesn't teach you to do much else. The reality is, low density living in countries like the US rely on this structure. The same way most of South Korea, including low density zones is built using large apartment blocks... because that's just what works for the country and there's no such thing as being a jack of all trades. I've disliked the apples to oranges and emotional bias present in those videos since the start. But people eat it up. Shame.
- scrollaway 5y ago
  NJB is not an "outrage" channel, that is utterly absurd. It's an information channel that mostly shows you how things work in the Netherlands and makes the case that it's a better way than the idiotic car-centric north American way. If you're outraged after watching his videos, it's not his fault, it's the fault of your city planners.
  - zionic 5y ago
    I’m mostly outraged that the YouTube algorithm keeps showing me his crap just because I like cities skylines. His content is trash and despite consistently disliking it YouTube just won’t learn.
    - seoulmetro 5y ago
      I've come to understand that there are things that have three or so factors, and you will never get rid of them. 1. Views. Usually boosted by getting bandwagoned on a place like Reddit. High viewed videos pop up everywhere, irrelevant or not. 2. Feel good factor, which sprouts from feeling like you learnt something new or can change the world now. 3. Emotional mob mentality. People refuse to believe things are the way they are for anything other than "bad design" or "someone did it wrong". Capitalising on this, is factor three. Some videos fill these 3 boxes and they just show up time and time again, EVERYWHERE. It's the algorithm of the internet, and YouTube loves to lead it.
    - smcl 5y ago
refurb 5y ago
That's because people like their cars. You may not, but many people do. And I've traveled in many countries and it's not like cars are uniquely American.
- Scott_Sanderson 5y ago
  Yes but designing roads that are hostile to anything other than a car, thus forcing people into cars, is very common in America.
- adrianN 5y ago
  People like their cars because the city design makes all alternatives comically impractical.
  - refurb 5y ago
    Nope. I live in a country with high quality transit and the first thing people buy when they can afford it is a car. Why? Convenience, flexibility, ability to haul a family. Cars certainly aren’t a requirement if you have good walkability and/transit, but given the choice many people prefer cars.
    - dont__panic 5y ago
      I have a car, and was excited to get one when I moved out of NYC a couple years back. But I hate using it for day-to-day tasks. For me, it's a machine that lets me take fun trips on the weekend, or go see family in their car-dependent towns and cities. If I want to go to a brewery, or stop by the post office, or shop for a few small items, or just go to a park, I would literally always rather do it on my bike or on foot. Driving around cities is miserable.
    - adrianN 5y ago
      There is a big difference between buying a car and doing literally every trip in a car because the only connection from the place you sleep to anywhere is six lane road with speeds exceeding 40mph. Of course cars are convenient for some things. I live in a city where the majority of households has access to a car, but only a quarter of the trips (accounting for 40% of the traveled distance) are made by car. I still consider the city to be built very car-centric, but it's a wholly different world from what I experienced when visiting the US.
Doctor_Fegg 5y ago
Britain is in the anglosphere. We’re not exactly the Netherlands but we’re a whole heap ahead of the US, and getting (very slowly) better. Same goes for New Zealand.
- Vinnl 5y ago
  I guess that's the main thing. I wouldn't particularly expect the US to make huge strides here, but e.g. in London the difference between now and years ago is night and day. The Netherlands didn't get to the present-day infrastructure overnight either. (Like London, my home town also improved a lot in the same period, even if it already was in a rather good place.)
- goodpoint 5y ago
  UK has plenty of soul-crushing sprawls around every city. > whole heap ahead of the US That's a very low bar to clear, come on.
- globular-toast 5y ago
  Better? Since when? During my lifetime in Britain it has only got worse. It's so bad now I no longer cycle myself for fear of serious injury or death and don't recommend others do either. Cars have become bigger and there are far more of them. We even see monstrous American cars on our roads now. They've taken more and more of the roads and there's no stopping them. Police don't bother any more.. The roads are in worse shape than ever. Far more money is put into car infrastructure than anything else. I assume you live in London or some other city. Outside of there it's way worse.
  - Doctor_Fegg 5y ago
    I was explicitly talking about cities because that's the context of the subthread (and indeed the OP). London, Cambridge, Birmingham, Manchester etc. are installing protected cycle infrastructure that was basically unheard of 10 years ago. I do agree that rural roads are more hostile for cycling now, and your assumption as to where I live is wrong.
trapexit 5y ago
The Netherlands may not be an English-first country, but something like 95% of the Dutch speak English, a higher percentage than in Canada(!). In central Amsterdam, the default language may as well be English. It is also surprisingly easy for Americans to relocate here if they are in a tech career (keyword: highly-skilled migrant) or remote-working/entrepreneurial (keyword: Dutch-American Friendship Treaty). It's even possible to keep paying an income tax rate similar to that of the USA for the first 5 years. Might even be a lower total income tax rate if you're coming from a high-tax state like CA/OR/NY (keyword: 30% ruling). Some advantages: safety (both in terms of infrastructure and crime); affordable high-quality universal healthcare; efficient government bureaucracy; fast and easy travel throughout the entire country and to France, Germany and the rest of Europe; relaxed attitudes toward dogs compared to the US (generally off-leash friendly and dogs can go into most shops & cafes) Some disadvantages: higher cost-of-living and lower salaries compared to the US; narrower variety of consumer products (food, clothing, etc.) available than in the US/UK; many say it's difficult to make Dutch friends, especially if you don't speak Dutch (though on the flip side, this effect makes it exceedingly easy to make expat friends); terrain is mostly flat; weather sucks compared to California; many find the Dutch language difficult to learn in spite of (or because of?) its similarities to English
- mcv 5y ago
  My son (12) has since yesterday started claiming that Netherland has the second highest percentage of English-speakers in the world. After the UK I guess? But apparently beating out several native English-speaking countries according to at least one measure. No idea what that measure is; I have strong doubts, because as much as the Dutch do indeed have a very strong command of English as a second language, we're really not native speakers, and can be very confidently wrong about idiom or pronunciation, even if we may be better at grammar than many native speakers (your/you're; their/they're/there; could of; etc). That said, we've got a rather extreme housing shortage at the moment, and just this week I read about foreign students who are homeless or living in tents because there's literally nothing else, so I don't think we can actually accommodate a large influx of North Americans seeking better infrastructure. Focusing on fixing your own country is probably better for everybody in the long run.

ReaLNero 5y ago

If you draw the line at country, sure. But America is huge compared to European nation-states. NYC is very public transportation-oriented. The Northeast corridor Amtrak line also is a big boon!

quadrangle 5y ago
but NYC and Amtrak aren't dramatically better than Toronto and Canadian rail issues that NotJustBikes constantly bashes as pathetically mediocre compared to the Netherlands. The U.S. definitely has a range of insanely-awful to decent-enough with small now-premium-priced pockets of great bits (which are almost always pre-car neighborhoods that somehow were spared destruction).
dougmwne 5y ago
The itty-bitty bits of America that have any kind of walkable community are incredibly expensive. It’s basically the equivalent of avoiding mediocre American factory food by doing all your shopping at Whole Foods. Why does it have to be a rare luxury to taste what the Europeans have in overflowing abundance?
- ch4s3 5y ago
  Organic carrots at Whole Foods in NYC are about $1/lb which is slightly less than the average price in France. Food is VERY cheap in the US.
- arsome 5y ago
  Because what they have flowing in abundance is a loss in many other ways. Public transit is a generally a worse experience in all but the most urban of places, and even then there's often enough problems that make it significantly less desirable. Biking in the winter? Doable, but also pretty miserable in much of the world. People like personal transportation and big detached houses with yards. Car-centric cities are the price we pay for these things. Personally I think it's worth the trade-off, I would have spent the same money on my 2000sqft house as a <400sqft apartment, and having kids and a dog would have been entirely impractical.
  - soco 5y ago
    Which goes to prove that those stroads weren't built by some evil conspiracy, but ordered and enjoyed by a (sizeable?) part of the population. Which is why they are meant to stay in the States, and reviled outside.
  - Rendello 5y ago
    For anyone interested in what _winter_ biking infrastructure could look like, some places in Finland have done a great job. Not for everyone, but popular nonetheless: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uhx-26GfCBU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uhx-26GfCBU
  - bobthepanda 5y ago
    The problem is not really necessarily that the car centric city exists, though it certainly has externalities related to health and the climate. The problem is that only the car centric city exists. Nice walkable places are in extremely short supply and fetch a premium, and so there exist people who buy into the detached house, car centric lifestyle because it is the only thing available at their price point. It is illegal to build the traditional way in most of the country’s land. And making it simply legal to build does not mean that the people who like this lifestyle will be forced to densify.
    - harpersealtako 5y ago
      This is the crux of the issue. I've said it before in HN, but urban density advocates need to focus more on why denser urban neighborhoods are good, rather than focusing on why car-centric suburbs are bad. New urbanists need the support of suburbanites whether they want to admit it or not, railing against people who like having space and privacy is less effective at winning allies than making a solid economic and social case for denser developments. Oftentimes urbanists actually explicitly say they want to "ban surburbs", which does nothing to help their cause or suggest that they are looking for a compromise that involves both dense developments and less dense developments.
      - milkytron 5y ago

seoulmetro 5y ago

That's its job. It's there to outrage you, but the reality is it doesn't teach you to do much else. The reality is, low density living in countries like the US rely on this structure. The same way most of South Korea, including low density zones is built using large apartment blocks... because that's just what works for the country and there's no such thing as being a jack of all trades. I've disliked the apples to oranges and emotional bias present in those videos since the start. But people eat it up. Shame.

scrollaway 5y ago
NJB is not an "outrage" channel, that is utterly absurd. It's an information channel that mostly shows you how things work in the Netherlands and makes the case that it's a better way than the idiotic car-centric north American way. If you're outraged after watching his videos, it's not his fault, it's the fault of your city planners.
- zionic 5y ago
  I’m mostly outraged that the YouTube algorithm keeps showing me his crap just because I like cities skylines. His content is trash and despite consistently disliking it YouTube just won’t learn.
  - seoulmetro 5y ago
    I've come to understand that there are things that have three or so factors, and you will never get rid of them. 1. Views. Usually boosted by getting bandwagoned on a place like Reddit. High viewed videos pop up everywhere, irrelevant or not. 2. Feel good factor, which sprouts from feeling like you learnt something new or can change the world now. 3. Emotional mob mentality. People refuse to believe things are the way they are for anything other than "bad design" or "someone did it wrong". Capitalising on this, is factor three. Some videos fill these 3 boxes and they just show up time and time again, EVERYWHERE. It's the algorithm of the internet, and YouTube loves to lead it.
  - smcl 5y ago

refurb 5y ago

That's because people like their cars. You may not, but many people do. And I've traveled in many countries and it's not like cars are uniquely American.

Scott_Sanderson 5y ago
Yes but designing roads that are hostile to anything other than a car, thus forcing people into cars, is very common in America.
adrianN 5y ago
People like their cars because the city design makes all alternatives comically impractical.
- refurb 5y ago
  Nope. I live in a country with high quality transit and the first thing people buy when they can afford it is a car. Why? Convenience, flexibility, ability to haul a family. Cars certainly aren’t a requirement if you have good walkability and/transit, but given the choice many people prefer cars.
  - dont__panic 5y ago
    I have a car, and was excited to get one when I moved out of NYC a couple years back. But I hate using it for day-to-day tasks. For me, it's a machine that lets me take fun trips on the weekend, or go see family in their car-dependent towns and cities. If I want to go to a brewery, or stop by the post office, or shop for a few small items, or just go to a park, I would literally always rather do it on my bike or on foot. Driving around cities is miserable.
  - adrianN 5y ago
    There is a big difference between buying a car and doing literally every trip in a car because the only connection from the place you sleep to anywhere is six lane road with speeds exceeding 40mph. Of course cars are convenient for some things. I live in a city where the majority of households has access to a car, but only a quarter of the trips (accounting for 40% of the traveled distance) are made by car. I still consider the city to be built very car-centric, but it's a wholly different world from what I experienced when visiting the US.

Doctor_Fegg 5y ago

Britain is in the anglosphere. We’re not exactly the Netherlands but we’re a whole heap ahead of the US, and getting (very slowly) better. Same goes for New Zealand.

Vinnl 5y ago
I guess that's the main thing. I wouldn't particularly expect the US to make huge strides here, but e.g. in London the difference between now and years ago is night and day. The Netherlands didn't get to the present-day infrastructure overnight either. (Like London, my home town also improved a lot in the same period, even if it already was in a rather good place.)
goodpoint 5y ago
UK has plenty of soul-crushing sprawls around every city. > whole heap ahead of the US That's a very low bar to clear, come on.
globular-toast 5y ago
Better? Since when? During my lifetime in Britain it has only got worse. It's so bad now I no longer cycle myself for fear of serious injury or death and don't recommend others do either. Cars have become bigger and there are far more of them. We even see monstrous American cars on our roads now. They've taken more and more of the roads and there's no stopping them. Police don't bother any more.. The roads are in worse shape than ever. Far more money is put into car infrastructure than anything else. I assume you live in London or some other city. Outside of there it's way worse.
- Doctor_Fegg 5y ago
  I was explicitly talking about cities because that's the context of the subthread (and indeed the OP). London, Cambridge, Birmingham, Manchester etc. are installing protected cycle infrastructure that was basically unheard of 10 years ago. I do agree that rural roads are more hostile for cycling now, and your assumption as to where I live is wrong.

trapexit 5y ago

The Netherlands may not be an English-first country, but something like 95% of the Dutch speak English, a higher percentage than in Canada(!). In central Amsterdam, the default language may as well be English. It is also surprisingly easy for Americans to relocate here if they are in a tech career (keyword: highly-skilled migrant) or remote-working/entrepreneurial (keyword: Dutch-American Friendship Treaty). It's even possible to keep paying an income tax rate similar to that of the USA for the first 5 years. Might even be a lower total income tax rate if you're coming from a high-tax state like CA/OR/NY (keyword: 30% ruling). Some advantages: safety (both in terms of infrastructure and crime); affordable high-quality universal healthcare; efficient government bureaucracy; fast and easy travel throughout the entire country and to France, Germany and the rest of Europe; relaxed attitudes toward dogs compared to the US (generally off-leash friendly and dogs can go into most shops & cafes) Some disadvantages: higher cost-of-living and lower salaries compared to the US; narrower variety of consumer products (food, clothing, etc.) available than in the US/UK; many say it's difficult to make Dutch friends, especially if you don't speak Dutch (though on the flip side, this effect makes it exceedingly easy to make expat friends); terrain is mostly flat; weather sucks compared to California; many find the Dutch language difficult to learn in spite of (or because of?) its similarities to English

mcv 5y ago
My son (12) has since yesterday started claiming that Netherland has the second highest percentage of English-speakers in the world. After the UK I guess? But apparently beating out several native English-speaking countries according to at least one measure. No idea what that measure is; I have strong doubts, because as much as the Dutch do indeed have a very strong command of English as a second language, we're really not native speakers, and can be very confidently wrong about idiom or pronunciation, even if we may be better at grammar than many native speakers (your/you're; their/they're/there; could of; etc). That said, we've got a rather extreme housing shortage at the moment, and just this week I read about foreign students who are homeless or living in tents because there's literally nothing else, so I don't think we can actually accommodate a large influx of North Americans seeking better infrastructure. Focusing on fixing your own country is probably better for everybody in the long run.