11 ms·

There is widespread use of non judicial punishments by police officers. Police regularly punch, kick, or otherwise cause pain on people with no repercussions or

by syki 5y ago

There is widespread use of non judicial punishments by police officers. Police regularly punch, kick, or otherwise cause pain on people with no repercussions or reporting. People engaged in constitutionally protected activities are often subjected to intimidation and brutality with no recourse. Oddly Americans widely believe the myth that they are free. It’s weird. You aren’t free if you can’t safely exercise your rights to police officers. People can be arrested solely for resisting arrest. Police routinely yell “stop resisting” in order to justify use of force. Police rarely arrest other police even for clearly criminal acts like domestic violence. There is a serious policing problem in the U.S. https://twitter.com/samswey/status/1180655701271732224?lang=en https://twitter.com/samswey/status/1180655701271732224?lang=...

rootusrootus 5y ago
> Americans widely believe the myth that they are free. It’s weird. You aren’t free if you can’t safely exercise your rights to police officers. By more meaningful measurements, Americans enjoy quite a lot of freedom. By your definition, essentially nobody in the world does.
- i5heu 5y ago
  There are indeed Nations that are a "Rechtsstaat" or a "state of law". Also you don't need to compare something to the worst of the same category. This is easy and lazy. Compare things to something better, or there is no progress.
  - bakuninsbart 5y ago
    Since you use the german word of Rechtsstaat, let me just say that Germany has major problems with power abuse among the police as well. As a white middle-class person, I only experienced it once myself, but it is what my immigrant friends consistently tell me, and I do tend to believe them. A major difference between the US and Germany is that this abuse is far less deadly usually. A rage-inducing example in recent years was the case of Sven W., who was beaten, abused and insulted by police for being gay. After complaining, he was then dragged in front of the court as the accused by the local DA multiple times. (https://www.queer.de/detail.php?article_id=39308 https://www.queer.de/detail.php?article_id=39308)
    - syki 5y ago
      Therein is the main difference between Western European police and American police. Our police can kill for the most part without repercussions. Also our prison system is more barbaric. We don’t have universal healthcare so even the act of healing from police violence can cost money.
    - i5heu 5y ago
      I have used the German word because it is used in the English Wikipedia. Germany has a lot of problems and is in Not a „Rechtsstaat“. Germany is not, for example, allowed to file an arrest warrant on the EU layer because the „Staatsanwaltschaft“ (the people who can file it) are assumed under politicians - directly.
- syki 5y ago
  In my experience Americans largely are ignorant about the rest of the world. I believe most Americans think the U.S. is the freest country in the world. It’s a myth. It is this myth that question. I don’t question that we are freer than many counties. I grew up in an American colony in Panama called the Canal Zone. I remember when my home town was given to Panama and we were patrolled by Panamanian police. During the Noriega troubles the police were openly hostile to Americans. I remember what it was like to deal with Panamanian police. My attitude with dealing with police in the U.S. is essentially the same as it was when dealing with the police of a dictatorship.
- theturtletalks 5y ago
  This is like saying other people are suffering more than you so your suffering is moot. Let's not tolerate injustices just because others have it worse.
  - Manuel_D 5y ago
    No it's not. It's pointing out the absurdity of saying that people aren't free because police can arrest, and in the cas of violent offenders, kill people. If that's the case then nobody is really free. Every country has a police force that has authority to use lethal force. Of course somebody in North Korea is less free than somebody living in the US. And of course it doesn't mean that we shouldn't address those cases where the police use force without just cause.
    - nemothekid 5y ago
      >It's pointing out the absurdity of saying that people aren't free because police can arrest, and in the cas of violent offenders, kill people I like how you had to add "in the case of violent offenders", even though the GP was talking about peaceful Americans excercising rights. Was Daniel Shaver a violent offender? What about Philando Castile? No, in other countries, police do not act like a cartel, and yes they are in-fact more free.
      - Manuel_D 5y ago
        > Was Daniel Shaver a violent offender? He was pointing a rifle out of the window of his hotel room which caused people to dial 911. The police are going into this situation with the belief that Shaver is armed. The police shot him after he reached for his waistband after being told to keep his hands up. > What about Philando Castile? The officer was charged and prosecuted, and the jury found him not guilty. What more do you want done? Kidnap the officer and imprison him extrajudicially? Police do get charged when they kill people without a credible threat presented to them. The conviction of Derek Chauvin presents a clear example of this. You listed two examples of people who probably would still be alive with better police, out of the thousand or so people killed by police each year. The overwhelming majority of people killed by police are presenting clear danger. The instances to the contrary are noteworthy because they aren't the norm.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
lb1lf 5y ago
"Got a lump on my head and a boot print on my chest From what the guys in here call "the Tillamook County lie detector test" Well I did my best but as you mighta guessed It's a tough test not to fail I'm sitting here waiting in the Tillamook County Jail" -Todd Snider, 'Tillamook County Jail', from his 'East Nashville Skyline' album.
lettergram 5y ago
It’s why many people suggest mandatory gun ownership and the abolition of police. Then judges can issue warrants for arrest. This is how it worked pre-organized state run policing in most of the western world.
- wayoutthere 5y ago
  There was definitely a self-policing movement in the 70s and 80s; the state-run police didn’t like it very much. Mumia Abu-Jamal is still in prison for trying to protect a community member from an abusive police officer.
  - the-dude 5y ago
    > for trying to protect a community member Wikipedia claims he is in jail for shooting a police officer in the back and face. He died too.
    - wayoutthere 5y ago
      Yes, and the officer was assaulting Mumia’s brother with deadly force (cop had his gun out too and shot Mumia). Whether you believe Mumia is guilty comes down to your views on the role of police and their responsibility to the communities they serve, which is why he’s often referred to as a political prisoner. Who polices the police? Frank Miller didn’t come up with that out of thin air, there was a very real national conversation about community policing in the late 70s which the state police cracked down on through violence, then the Reagan years of law and order killed the conversation for anyone who didn’t want to end up in prison or dead.
      - the-dude 5y ago
        Wikipedia only states Faulkner and Cook ( Mumia's brother ) became engaged in a physical confrontation. Do you have any sources for your claim?
        5y ago
MeinBlutIstBlau 5y ago
Freedom is defined by what you can get away with. Not by what is entrenched in law. Your free to rob a bank and defend yourself in court. Your just not entitled these "freedoms."
wonderwonder 5y ago
This is what has always amazed me about the political party which are very much supposed to be for smaller government yet it whole heartedly supports the police in almost every instance. The police are a militia with almost complete power over life and death and very limited oversight. They can literally kill you for any reason and 9 times out of 10, that's it, case shut. We investigated ourselves and found we did nothing wrong. I would think the party of less government control would be all for more police oversight and a reduction of police power. Instead they fly 'thin blue line' flags and campaign on 'back the blue'. I really don't get it. I don't state this to attack that political group, I just very much don't understand.
- nightski 5y ago
  First of all, why do so many feel the need to polarize everything and turn it into a a partisan battle? We need less of this not more! Second, police are local. Generally conservative opposition is to large federal government. This is a purely subjective take, I'm not taking sides.
  - fknorangesite 5y ago
    Neither is it helpful to pretend that there isn't a clear political divide in support for the police.
    - nightski 5y ago
      So far I'm not convinced there is other than the one manufactured in the media. Far left attempts at revamping police have largely failed from what I have seen (ex. Minneapolis, which is a rather left leaning city). But I'd love to see actual evidence to the contrary. As in cases where police defunding/change has actually been voted in/implemented in the U.S.
      - wonderwonder 5y ago
        Defund the police is a loser of a political campaign and really does not make sense. Democrats are targeting the far left with that and losing the middle. What makes sense is reducing the power of police unions to essentially negotiate police powers and an increase of independent police oversight and use of force investigations. Mandate body cameras, and force them to release them promptly via public information requests, no exceptions. Get rid of qualified immunity. Edit: With that said I am pro police and think they perform a vital role in society. They do a job very few people want to and deal with the worst of us. I just don't want them to have immunity from the very laws they are supposed to enforce.
rednerrus 5y ago
Do you have a citation for your claim "There is widespread use of non judicial punishments by police officers. Police regularly punch, kick, or otherwise cause pain on people with no repercussions or reporting. People engaged in constitutionally protected activities are often subjected to intimidation and brutality with no recourse." I know this is a popular trope in certain political circles but I'd like to see some evidence. There are a lot of weasel words in that statement.
- syki 5y ago
  What is a “weasel” word? I suspect from the usage of that term that no amount of evidence I present will persuade you. Evidence of the problems I alluded too are easy to find. I get no income from the following link. https://www.amazon.com/Police-Wife-Epidemic-Domestic-Violence/dp/0994861761 https://www.amazon.com/Police-Wife-Epidemic-Domestic-Violenc...
  - rednerrus 5y ago
    If the evidence is easy to find, please present it.
    - syki 5y ago
      I’ve done so twice. Here’s a third one. I’m not your researcher and have no desire to do the work for you beyond what I’ve done so far. Everyone has a right to avoid uncomfortable truths. https://www.fatherly.com/love-money/police-brutality-and-domestic-violence/ https://www.fatherly.com/love-money/police-brutality-and-dom...
      - rednerrus 5y ago
        Are you asserting that domestic violence is "non judicial punishments" or that it's violating the general populations right to peaceable assembly? Is there a domestic violence problem in the police force? From the evidence you're presenting, possibly. Is that evidence "There is widespread use of non judicial punishments by police officers. Police regularly punch, kick, or otherwise cause pain on people with no repercussions or reporting. People engaged in constitutionally protected activities are often subjected to intimidation and brutality with no recourse."? Absolutely not. This is why I'm asking you for your sources. The argument that you're putting forward is specious. The lack of particulars is a dead giveaway. When pressed, you're falling back on statistics that have nothing to do with your argument. I expect hackernews users to be more reasonable than this.

by syki 5y ago

rootusrootus 5y ago

> Americans widely believe the myth that they are free. It’s weird. You aren’t free if you can’t safely exercise your rights to police officers. By more meaningful measurements, Americans enjoy quite a lot of freedom. By your definition, essentially nobody in the world does.

i5heu 5y ago
There are indeed Nations that are a "Rechtsstaat" or a "state of law". Also you don't need to compare something to the worst of the same category. This is easy and lazy. Compare things to something better, or there is no progress.
- bakuninsbart 5y ago
  Since you use the german word of Rechtsstaat, let me just say that Germany has major problems with power abuse among the police as well. As a white middle-class person, I only experienced it once myself, but it is what my immigrant friends consistently tell me, and I do tend to believe them. A major difference between the US and Germany is that this abuse is far less deadly usually. A rage-inducing example in recent years was the case of Sven W., who was beaten, abused and insulted by police for being gay. After complaining, he was then dragged in front of the court as the accused by the local DA multiple times. (https://www.queer.de/detail.php?article_id=39308 https://www.queer.de/detail.php?article_id=39308)
  - syki 5y ago
    Therein is the main difference between Western European police and American police. Our police can kill for the most part without repercussions. Also our prison system is more barbaric. We don’t have universal healthcare so even the act of healing from police violence can cost money.
  - i5heu 5y ago
    I have used the German word because it is used in the English Wikipedia. Germany has a lot of problems and is in Not a „Rechtsstaat“. Germany is not, for example, allowed to file an arrest warrant on the EU layer because the „Staatsanwaltschaft“ (the people who can file it) are assumed under politicians - directly.
syki 5y ago
In my experience Americans largely are ignorant about the rest of the world. I believe most Americans think the U.S. is the freest country in the world. It’s a myth. It is this myth that question. I don’t question that we are freer than many counties. I grew up in an American colony in Panama called the Canal Zone. I remember when my home town was given to Panama and we were patrolled by Panamanian police. During the Noriega troubles the police were openly hostile to Americans. I remember what it was like to deal with Panamanian police. My attitude with dealing with police in the U.S. is essentially the same as it was when dealing with the police of a dictatorship.
theturtletalks 5y ago
This is like saying other people are suffering more than you so your suffering is moot. Let's not tolerate injustices just because others have it worse.
- Manuel_D 5y ago
  No it's not. It's pointing out the absurdity of saying that people aren't free because police can arrest, and in the cas of violent offenders, kill people. If that's the case then nobody is really free. Every country has a police force that has authority to use lethal force. Of course somebody in North Korea is less free than somebody living in the US. And of course it doesn't mean that we shouldn't address those cases where the police use force without just cause.
  - nemothekid 5y ago
    >It's pointing out the absurdity of saying that people aren't free because police can arrest, and in the cas of violent offenders, kill people I like how you had to add "in the case of violent offenders", even though the GP was talking about peaceful Americans excercising rights. Was Daniel Shaver a violent offender? What about Philando Castile? No, in other countries, police do not act like a cartel, and yes they are in-fact more free.
    - Manuel_D 5y ago
      > Was Daniel Shaver a violent offender? He was pointing a rifle out of the window of his hotel room which caused people to dial 911. The police are going into this situation with the belief that Shaver is armed. The police shot him after he reached for his waistband after being told to keep his hands up. > What about Philando Castile? The officer was charged and prosecuted, and the jury found him not guilty. What more do you want done? Kidnap the officer and imprison him extrajudicially? Police do get charged when they kill people without a credible threat presented to them. The conviction of Derek Chauvin presents a clear example of this. You listed two examples of people who probably would still be alive with better police, out of the thousand or so people killed by police each year. The overwhelming majority of people killed by police are presenting clear danger. The instances to the contrary are noteworthy because they aren't the norm.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

lb1lf 5y ago

"Got a lump on my head and a boot print on my chest From what the guys in here call "the Tillamook County lie detector test" Well I did my best but as you mighta guessed It's a tough test not to fail I'm sitting here waiting in the Tillamook County Jail" -Todd Snider, 'Tillamook County Jail', from his 'East Nashville Skyline' album.

lettergram 5y ago

It’s why many people suggest mandatory gun ownership and the abolition of police. Then judges can issue warrants for arrest. This is how it worked pre-organized state run policing in most of the western world.

wayoutthere 5y ago
There was definitely a self-policing movement in the 70s and 80s; the state-run police didn’t like it very much. Mumia Abu-Jamal is still in prison for trying to protect a community member from an abusive police officer.
- the-dude 5y ago
  > for trying to protect a community member Wikipedia claims he is in jail for shooting a police officer in the back and face. He died too.
  - wayoutthere 5y ago
    Yes, and the officer was assaulting Mumia’s brother with deadly force (cop had his gun out too and shot Mumia). Whether you believe Mumia is guilty comes down to your views on the role of police and their responsibility to the communities they serve, which is why he’s often referred to as a political prisoner. Who polices the police? Frank Miller didn’t come up with that out of thin air, there was a very real national conversation about community policing in the late 70s which the state police cracked down on through violence, then the Reagan years of law and order killed the conversation for anyone who didn’t want to end up in prison or dead.
    - the-dude 5y ago
      Wikipedia only states Faulkner and Cook ( Mumia's brother ) became engaged in a physical confrontation. Do you have any sources for your claim?
      - 5y ago

MeinBlutIstBlau 5y ago

Freedom is defined by what you can get away with. Not by what is entrenched in law. Your free to rob a bank and defend yourself in court. Your just not entitled these "freedoms."

wonderwonder 5y ago

This is what has always amazed me about the political party which are very much supposed to be for smaller government yet it whole heartedly supports the police in almost every instance. The police are a militia with almost complete power over life and death and very limited oversight. They can literally kill you for any reason and 9 times out of 10, that's it, case shut. We investigated ourselves and found we did nothing wrong. I would think the party of less government control would be all for more police oversight and a reduction of police power. Instead they fly 'thin blue line' flags and campaign on 'back the blue'. I really don't get it. I don't state this to attack that political group, I just very much don't understand.

nightski 5y ago
First of all, why do so many feel the need to polarize everything and turn it into a a partisan battle? We need less of this not more! Second, police are local. Generally conservative opposition is to large federal government. This is a purely subjective take, I'm not taking sides.
- fknorangesite 5y ago
  Neither is it helpful to pretend that there isn't a clear political divide in support for the police.
  - nightski 5y ago
    So far I'm not convinced there is other than the one manufactured in the media. Far left attempts at revamping police have largely failed from what I have seen (ex. Minneapolis, which is a rather left leaning city). But I'd love to see actual evidence to the contrary. As in cases where police defunding/change has actually been voted in/implemented in the U.S.
    - wonderwonder 5y ago
      Defund the police is a loser of a political campaign and really does not make sense. Democrats are targeting the far left with that and losing the middle. What makes sense is reducing the power of police unions to essentially negotiate police powers and an increase of independent police oversight and use of force investigations. Mandate body cameras, and force them to release them promptly via public information requests, no exceptions. Get rid of qualified immunity. Edit: With that said I am pro police and think they perform a vital role in society. They do a job very few people want to and deal with the worst of us. I just don't want them to have immunity from the very laws they are supposed to enforce.

rednerrus 5y ago

Do you have a citation for your claim "There is widespread use of non judicial punishments by police officers. Police regularly punch, kick, or otherwise cause pain on people with no repercussions or reporting. People engaged in constitutionally protected activities are often subjected to intimidation and brutality with no recourse." I know this is a popular trope in certain political circles but I'd like to see some evidence. There are a lot of weasel words in that statement.

syki 5y ago
What is a “weasel” word? I suspect from the usage of that term that no amount of evidence I present will persuade you. Evidence of the problems I alluded too are easy to find. I get no income from the following link. https://www.amazon.com/Police-Wife-Epidemic-Domestic-Violence/dp/0994861761 https://www.amazon.com/Police-Wife-Epidemic-Domestic-Violenc...
- rednerrus 5y ago
  If the evidence is easy to find, please present it.
  - syki 5y ago
    I’ve done so twice. Here’s a third one. I’m not your researcher and have no desire to do the work for you beyond what I’ve done so far. Everyone has a right to avoid uncomfortable truths. https://www.fatherly.com/love-money/police-brutality-and-domestic-violence/ https://www.fatherly.com/love-money/police-brutality-and-dom...
    - rednerrus 5y ago
      Are you asserting that domestic violence is "non judicial punishments" or that it's violating the general populations right to peaceable assembly? Is there a domestic violence problem in the police force? From the evidence you're presenting, possibly. Is that evidence "There is widespread use of non judicial punishments by police officers. Police regularly punch, kick, or otherwise cause pain on people with no repercussions or reporting. People engaged in constitutionally protected activities are often subjected to intimidation and brutality with no recourse."? Absolutely not. This is why I'm asking you for your sources. The argument that you're putting forward is specious. The lack of particulars is a dead giveaway. When pressed, you're falling back on statistics that have nothing to do with your argument. I expect hackernews users to be more reasonable than this.