17 ms·

FBI may shut down police use-of-force database due to lack of police involvement

237 points by jbegley 5y ago

technobabbler 5y ago
This is like expecting politicians to self-report their corruption... Wonder who wrote... oh wait.
1024core 5y ago
The Federal government should exclude these non-cooperating departments from the 1033 program[1] then. I hate it when Democrats just throw up their arms and act exasperated; there _is_ a way here. Withhold FBI's cooperation from these departments too then. [1] https://www.cnbc.com/2020/07/09/why-police-pay-nothing-for-military-equipment.html https://www.cnbc.com/2020/07/09/why-police-pay-nothing-for-m...
- technobabbler 5y ago
  For decades now the Dems have been lame ducks surrounded by snakes. They have no vision, no popular mandate, and no idea how to use the bully pulpit. They're too busy putting band-aids on an ever-growing cancer to actually do anything anymore. The Republicans have directly attacked every cornerstone of our democratic and electoral systems, from the ballots to the courts to the schools, and have made huge victories all across. The Dems, meanwhile, just keep chugging along pretending like it's still the 90s. No meaningful reform will come from them. Authoritarianism, here we come.
  - imwillofficial 5y ago
    What are you talking about? From gay rights to trans rights, from abortion to smoking weed. Democrats have gone from victory to victory. If that’s good or bad depends on your point of view.
    - JohnWhigham 5y ago
      abortion In case you haven't noticed, that's about to be overturned. Democrats have gone from victory to victory. Lol, are you sure you're not employed by the DNC? Victory for whom, the American people, or the politicians and their friends?
      - dang 5y ago
        We've already asked you not to post like this (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29000160 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29000160). We ban accounts that do this repeatedly, and you've unfortunately been continuing to post ideological flamewar comments and otherwise breaking the site guidelines. That's seriously not cool here. If you wouldn't mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and taking the intended spirit of the site more to heart, we'd be grateful.
    - dang 5y ago
      Please do not take HN threads further into political flamewar. It's not what this site is for, and it destroys what it is for. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
      - imwillofficial 5y ago
        Ah, that was not my intention.
  - dang 5y ago
    Please do not take HN threads further into political flamewar. It's not what this site is for, and it destroys what it is for. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
    - technobabbler 5y ago
      Hi dang, I fear the line between a political "discussion" and "flamewar" here may be quite thin, and not easily distinguished for the layperson. There is not a neat separation between politics and technology/surveillance/policing/violence anymore, and in this day and age remaining apolitical isn't really a possibility for anyone who engages even shallowly with society at large. The tech world has been dragged kicking and screaming into the rest of society, and with it, the messiness of culture and politics and values. There's no going back. This story in particular is inherently about the intersection of technology, culture, and politics, the exact sort of thing any good hacker SHOULD be interested in. Whether it's Stallman, Linus, the EFF, Mozilla, Snowden... there is no such thing as apolitical, value-less technology anymore. What good is code in a bubble? Technology has impacts on society, and society impacts technology. If the goal is to restrain the discussions here to only technologies that have no obvious political connection, the realm of theoretical comp sci as opposed to anything applied or public-facing, well... that's unfortunate, but that's your call. I hope you will reconsider this viewpoint, but I doubt my single voice holds any sway in the grand scheme of things. You and others probably want to prevent this place from becoming like r/worldnews, which I understand, even if I don't completely agree. I don't think I can do what you're asking for -- remain apolitical in the face of political technologies -- without completely sacrificing the spirit of meaningful discussion. Too many of the world's evils are created and maintained by people who just work on technology without thinking of their larger repercussions, and I cannot in good conscience do the same. Anyhow, you're probably sick of hearing stuff like this. I shall refrain from further posting, and return to lurking, and not further disturb your community. Thank you for a fun few months.
      - dang 5y ago
        The approach we take to this is pretty well established on HN. If you want to read about it, here are some links to past explanations: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21607844 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21607844 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22902490 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22902490 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17014869 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17014869 https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&sort=byDate&type=comment&query=political%20overlap%20by:dang https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&so.... > I fear the line between a political "discussion" and "flamewar" here may be quite thin, and not easily distinguished for the layperson. Sure, it's not always obvious, but in the case of your GP comment it was. That comment was clearly on the wrong side of the line. Not a borderline call.
- webdoodle 5y ago
  Yep, they should also be put on a 'no fly' list that excludes them from any Federal Law Enforcement Grants or Funding, which is a large part of many police dept budgets. For instance, it's how the Federal government enforces speed limits in all 50 states, by only giving highway funding to states that comply.
  - toss1 5y ago
    Hell, don't just cut off funding & cooperation for not participating, tax them also - as in if they don't want to participate, the need to pay fees to the FBI, perhaps the amounts related to the costs of FBI staff gathering the same data about them - i.e., either provide the data, or pay to have it provided for you. That should get the attention of a few mayors, town/city councilpersons, if not just the police chiefs noticing the holes in their budget.
- krolden 5y ago
  Those programs should be stopped entirely whether or not they comply butni also argue that these uncooperative departments should have all federal aid cut off until they comply. Maybe go as far as to cut off any federal funding to that municipality (no idea how much federal money these places get) in order to get them to start doing something about their terrible policing practices.
- wayoutthere 5y ago
  The problem is that most local PDs would be considered organized crime in any other context (violent gangs and extortion rings within police departments have been well documented). Most don’t want the FBI involvement and are perfectly happy to extort the citizens of their cities for protection.
  - voakbasda 5y ago
    I routinely tell anyone that will listen that the US police forces are our most active domestic terrorist organization. People do not want to listen to the truth.
    - pessimizer 5y ago
      The police unions could pull a coup off in a day with adequate preparation.
    - wayoutthere 5y ago
      Right; and because they effectively control the legal system, there is zero accountability. Some cops in my area were murdering drug dealers in order to steal their cash and got caught red-handed. They didn’t even lose their jobs, much less go to jail.
- javajosh 5y ago
  That's a good start. What concerns me is the lack of attention everyday policing problems get. It's an "ignore it and it will go away problem" at best, or it's an "it only applies to the poor, stupid, addicted people who can't control themselves, and have to be treated like animals anyway" non-problem, based on dehumanizing the victims. Somehow we've decided that we don't care about accountable policing, almost certainly because no-one realizes how big of a problem it is, and that happens for a wide variety of reasons (#1 is that if you complain about the police in the US, 95% chance you'll get ignored, and 4% you'll get blamed, 1% chance anyone takes it seriously, and 1 in a 1000 chance anything at all happens.
joshstrange 5y ago
It's absolutely insane that the answer to "Police aren't participating in a required program" is "let's shut it down and give up".
- User23 5y ago
  Where do you see that this is a required program? The only requirement described is for the program itself. It's failing to meet its own requirements and thus it's shutting down. In the USA police power generally belongs to the states. The FBI can't just arbitrarily order state and local police to participate in their programs.
  - NoGravitas 5y ago
    While police power generally belongs to the states, state and local police get tons of money from the federal government. It should be at least possible to withhold that money from non-compliant agencies.
    - germinalphrase 5y ago
      And they should have a right to while giving up the benefits of federal support. It appears that non-participation here is costless.
  - joshstrange 5y ago
    I read: > The GAO report also says the Justice Department has largely ignored a requirement included in the 1994 crime bill to “acquire data about the use of excessive force by law enforcement officers” and “shall publish an annual summary of the data acquired.” Maybe I'm reading this wrong but I read this as "the collection is required by the crime bill passed in 1994". Even if it's not, the FBI surely has carrots and sticks they can use to force participation.
    - tabtab 5y ago
      > Even if it's not, the FBI surely has carrots and sticks they can use to force participation. But some agencies will resist anyhow because they are anti-Fed. Many rural areas have a giant mistrust of the Federal gov't. Incentives will just make them double-down. You know, the Culture Wars. To get near 100% compliance would require both a strongly-worded law and strong enforcement.
annoyingnoob 5y ago
How is anyone supposed to trust the police?
- CountDrewku 5y ago
  I trust the FBI less. They're too busy running around creating fake white supremacist groups to deal with real issues anyway.
- technobabbler 5y ago
  It's easier to trust the boys in blue when you're white and red.
- throwaway0a5e 5y ago
  You don't. That's the point. Police are a much more effective tool for enforcing government policy (especially the unpopular ones) if the citizenry distrust and fear them. Police who the citizenry can be confident will respect their rights are much less useful as a deterrent to those considering violating "hard to convict on". Making the public not want to even interact with the police has a force multiplier effect.
  - annoyingnoob 5y ago
    An 'us vs them' narrative between citizens and government is really really unhealthy. We are all on the same team after all. It is completely reasonable to do the vast majority of, if not all, police work without being untrustworthy and unaccountable. The US Government is based on checks and balances - accountability.
    - NoGravitas 5y ago
      > We are all on the same team after all. We're really, really not. Read up on the history of policing (in particular, in the UK and the US), come back to me, and then try to say that with a straight face. A good source (ignore the inflammatory title and focus on the quality of references) is "Our Enemies in Blue: Police and Power in America" by Kristian Williams.
edoceo 5y ago
This is the same way other bureaucracy shut down programs or persons that are critical of them. The tactic of deny, defer, delay. Eg: Just do a FOIA request - wait 50+ days for the response - by which time some new bullshit is going on and everyone forgot the last one. Not just police but other government regulatory agencies too
- achandlerwhite 5y ago
  To be fair, I've worked at federal agencies on the receiving end of FOIA requests and for every reasonable and actionable request there are a number of unhinged, overreaching, and ill-defined requests that all were handled with due process. These ones tied up limited resources delaying responses for all requests. It was a poisoned well. But your point is well taken and I have no doubt in some situations FOIAs have been slow-walked to dissuade criticism.
  - _jal 5y ago
    There is a huge amount of documented history of FOIA games a google search away. I have zero patience for public employees treating the public with contempt. I know it is a hassle, but dealing with the nutters is part of the job. Public employees that treat the public with contempt need to find a different way to feed themselves.
    - pc86 5y ago
      It's possible to treat "the nutters" with well-deserved contempt while treating reasonable people reasonably.
      - _jal 5y ago
        Not as an FOI officer. Who decides who is nutty? Some well documented stories: https://www.propublica.org/article/delayed-denied-dismissed-failures-on-the-foia-front https://www.propublica.org/article/delayed-denied-dismissed-...
nabakin 5y ago
http://web.archive.org/web/20211209160300/https://www.washingtonpost.com/crime-law/2021/12/09/fbi-police-shooting-data/ http://web.archive.org/web/20211209160300/https://www.washin...
jimbob45 5y ago
>“I’d be surprised if they didn’t make 60 percent,” said Bill Brooks, chief of the Norwood, Mass., police and a member of the International Association of Chiefs of Police board of directors. He said a key problem is that many agencies that have no force incidents are failing to input “zero reports” each month, so the agency is counted as not participating. The IACP has long supported the data collection, and low participation numbers “make us look like we’re hiding something, when in reality I don’t think that’s the case.” Doesn't seem like there's anything malicious here. Looks like a misunderstanding. The FBI needs 60% participation in order to publish their numbers and they're currently at 57%. I see no reason that they won't easily exceed that threshold.
- technobabbler 5y ago
  I can believe it's an honest mistake. Citizens don't always know this, but in many states, law enforcements officers have a monthly quota they have to try to reach. That quota is usually around 15, split between their duties. Therefore, if they spend 15 or 16 bullets on a teenager, that leaves them 0 reports left to make. Efficient system, huh?
papito 5y ago
If this happened under Trump, we'd be all losing our shit about hpw this was a malicious act, directed from the top.
_jal 5y ago
So you might say the FBI is forcing the public to go dark on this. Things like this usually are the way the are because someone wants them that way.
syki 5y ago
There is widespread use of non judicial punishments by police officers. Police regularly punch, kick, or otherwise cause pain on people with no repercussions or reporting. People engaged in constitutionally protected activities are often subjected to intimidation and brutality with no recourse. Oddly Americans widely believe the myth that they are free. It’s weird. You aren’t free if you can’t safely exercise your rights to police officers. People can be arrested solely for resisting arrest. Police routinely yell “stop resisting” in order to justify use of force. Police rarely arrest other police even for clearly criminal acts like domestic violence. There is a serious policing problem in the U.S. https://twitter.com/samswey/status/1180655701271732224?lang=en https://twitter.com/samswey/status/1180655701271732224?lang=...
- rootusrootus 5y ago
  > Americans widely believe the myth that they are free. It’s weird. You aren’t free if you can’t safely exercise your rights to police officers. By more meaningful measurements, Americans enjoy quite a lot of freedom. By your definition, essentially nobody in the world does.
  - i5heu 5y ago
    There are indeed Nations that are a "Rechtsstaat" or a "state of law". Also you don't need to compare something to the worst of the same category. This is easy and lazy. Compare things to something better, or there is no progress.
    - bakuninsbart 5y ago
      Since you use the german word of Rechtsstaat, let me just say that Germany has major problems with power abuse among the police as well. As a white middle-class person, I only experienced it once myself, but it is what my immigrant friends consistently tell me, and I do tend to believe them. A major difference between the US and Germany is that this abuse is far less deadly usually. A rage-inducing example in recent years was the case of Sven W., who was beaten, abused and insulted by police for being gay. After complaining, he was then dragged in front of the court as the accused by the local DA multiple times. (https://www.queer.de/detail.php?article_id=39308 https://www.queer.de/detail.php?article_id=39308)
darksaints 5y ago
I've grown tired of ineffective policies to regulate the police. The penalty for lying under oath should be a prison sentence for perjury, not a stint on the Brady list. The penalty for excessive force should be a prison sentence for assault, not an internal affairs investigation with a month of vacation. Any use of force causing any injury at all should at least be presented to a grand jury, where impartial jurors, pulled from the public that these police are supposed to serve, can determine the reasonableness of the force used and can move to indict if necessary. We don't need any more laws, programs, investigations, or data trackers. We already have enough of those to go by....we just need prosecutors that will put cops in prison.
- enchiridion 5y ago
  The issue is that prosecutors works very closely with police. We need separate state level prosecutors who solely go after crimes committed by the police.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- DaveExeter 5y ago
  Um...are you aware that police and prosecutors are on the same team? Police lie under oath in order to benefit prosecutors!
cataphract 5y ago
Maybe the FBI should start by lobbying to get rid of absolute immunity for their constitutional violations (minus Bivens, which the SC has been making more and more irrelevant) before supervising local police.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
oaiey 5y ago
The statement at the bottom confused me: "The compliance with the reporting has reached close to 60%" but "zero incident reports" may lead to non-compliance (bad SQL queries ... anyone?) ... what scared me: When only 40% of all police departments file zero incident reports ... that mean that 60% of all departments had violent incidents. Makes me sad.
- parineum 5y ago
  I think the 40% is what you should be worried about. The police are supposed to have a literal monopoly on violence. One should expect _some_ violent incidents. Remember, this isn't an "unjustified" use-of-force database, it's for all use-of-force incidents. The purpose is to be able to compare different departments number of incidents to help identify possible problem areas through comparison. If 40% of police departments are "never" using force, they are obviously lying.
justicezyx 5y ago
What's the point to asking the accused to join the project to report their own wrongdoings? Even the fully benevolent and conscientious people instinctly feel difficult to admit wrongdoings. This whole thing sounds like a shim.
Pacers31Colts18 5y ago
Seems like maybe instead of shutting it down, they should cut funding for departments that aren't participating?

237 points by jbegley 5y ago

This is like expecting politicians to self-report their corruption... Wonder who wrote... oh wait.

The Federal government should exclude these non-cooperating departments from the 1033 program[1] then. I hate it when Democrats just throw up their arms and act exasperated; there _is_ a way here. Withhold FBI's cooperation from these departments too then. [1] https://www.cnbc.com/2020/07/09/why-police-pay-nothing-for-military-equipment.html https://www.cnbc.com/2020/07/09/why-police-pay-nothing-for-m...

technobabbler 5y ago
For decades now the Dems have been lame ducks surrounded by snakes. They have no vision, no popular mandate, and no idea how to use the bully pulpit. They're too busy putting band-aids on an ever-growing cancer to actually do anything anymore. The Republicans have directly attacked every cornerstone of our democratic and electoral systems, from the ballots to the courts to the schools, and have made huge victories all across. The Dems, meanwhile, just keep chugging along pretending like it's still the 90s. No meaningful reform will come from them. Authoritarianism, here we come.
- imwillofficial 5y ago
  What are you talking about? From gay rights to trans rights, from abortion to smoking weed. Democrats have gone from victory to victory. If that’s good or bad depends on your point of view.
  - JohnWhigham 5y ago
    abortion In case you haven't noticed, that's about to be overturned. Democrats have gone from victory to victory. Lol, are you sure you're not employed by the DNC? Victory for whom, the American people, or the politicians and their friends?
    - dang 5y ago
      We've already asked you not to post like this (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29000160 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29000160). We ban accounts that do this repeatedly, and you've unfortunately been continuing to post ideological flamewar comments and otherwise breaking the site guidelines. That's seriously not cool here. If you wouldn't mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and taking the intended spirit of the site more to heart, we'd be grateful.
  - dang 5y ago
    Please do not take HN threads further into political flamewar. It's not what this site is for, and it destroys what it is for. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
    - imwillofficial 5y ago
      Ah, that was not my intention.
- dang 5y ago
  Please do not take HN threads further into political flamewar. It's not what this site is for, and it destroys what it is for. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
  - technobabbler 5y ago
    Hi dang, I fear the line between a political "discussion" and "flamewar" here may be quite thin, and not easily distinguished for the layperson. There is not a neat separation between politics and technology/surveillance/policing/violence anymore, and in this day and age remaining apolitical isn't really a possibility for anyone who engages even shallowly with society at large. The tech world has been dragged kicking and screaming into the rest of society, and with it, the messiness of culture and politics and values. There's no going back. This story in particular is inherently about the intersection of technology, culture, and politics, the exact sort of thing any good hacker SHOULD be interested in. Whether it's Stallman, Linus, the EFF, Mozilla, Snowden... there is no such thing as apolitical, value-less technology anymore. What good is code in a bubble? Technology has impacts on society, and society impacts technology. If the goal is to restrain the discussions here to only technologies that have no obvious political connection, the realm of theoretical comp sci as opposed to anything applied or public-facing, well... that's unfortunate, but that's your call. I hope you will reconsider this viewpoint, but I doubt my single voice holds any sway in the grand scheme of things. You and others probably want to prevent this place from becoming like r/worldnews, which I understand, even if I don't completely agree. I don't think I can do what you're asking for -- remain apolitical in the face of political technologies -- without completely sacrificing the spirit of meaningful discussion. Too many of the world's evils are created and maintained by people who just work on technology without thinking of their larger repercussions, and I cannot in good conscience do the same. Anyhow, you're probably sick of hearing stuff like this. I shall refrain from further posting, and return to lurking, and not further disturb your community. Thank you for a fun few months.
    - dang 5y ago
      The approach we take to this is pretty well established on HN. If you want to read about it, here are some links to past explanations: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21607844 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21607844 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22902490 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22902490 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17014869 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17014869 https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&sort=byDate&type=comment&query=political%20overlap%20by:dang https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&so.... > I fear the line between a political "discussion" and "flamewar" here may be quite thin, and not easily distinguished for the layperson. Sure, it's not always obvious, but in the case of your GP comment it was. That comment was clearly on the wrong side of the line. Not a borderline call.
webdoodle 5y ago
Yep, they should also be put on a 'no fly' list that excludes them from any Federal Law Enforcement Grants or Funding, which is a large part of many police dept budgets. For instance, it's how the Federal government enforces speed limits in all 50 states, by only giving highway funding to states that comply.
- toss1 5y ago
  Hell, don't just cut off funding & cooperation for not participating, tax them also - as in if they don't want to participate, the need to pay fees to the FBI, perhaps the amounts related to the costs of FBI staff gathering the same data about them - i.e., either provide the data, or pay to have it provided for you. That should get the attention of a few mayors, town/city councilpersons, if not just the police chiefs noticing the holes in their budget.
krolden 5y ago
Those programs should be stopped entirely whether or not they comply butni also argue that these uncooperative departments should have all federal aid cut off until they comply. Maybe go as far as to cut off any federal funding to that municipality (no idea how much federal money these places get) in order to get them to start doing something about their terrible policing practices.
wayoutthere 5y ago
The problem is that most local PDs would be considered organized crime in any other context (violent gangs and extortion rings within police departments have been well documented). Most don’t want the FBI involvement and are perfectly happy to extort the citizens of their cities for protection.
- voakbasda 5y ago
  I routinely tell anyone that will listen that the US police forces are our most active domestic terrorist organization. People do not want to listen to the truth.
  - pessimizer 5y ago
    The police unions could pull a coup off in a day with adequate preparation.
  - wayoutthere 5y ago
    Right; and because they effectively control the legal system, there is zero accountability. Some cops in my area were murdering drug dealers in order to steal their cash and got caught red-handed. They didn’t even lose their jobs, much less go to jail.
javajosh 5y ago
That's a good start. What concerns me is the lack of attention everyday policing problems get. It's an "ignore it and it will go away problem" at best, or it's an "it only applies to the poor, stupid, addicted people who can't control themselves, and have to be treated like animals anyway" non-problem, based on dehumanizing the victims. Somehow we've decided that we don't care about accountable policing, almost certainly because no-one realizes how big of a problem it is, and that happens for a wide variety of reasons (#1 is that if you complain about the police in the US, 95% chance you'll get ignored, and 4% you'll get blamed, 1% chance anyone takes it seriously, and 1 in a 1000 chance anything at all happens.

joshstrange 5y ago

It's absolutely insane that the answer to "Police aren't participating in a required program" is "let's shut it down and give up".

User23 5y ago
Where do you see that this is a required program? The only requirement described is for the program itself. It's failing to meet its own requirements and thus it's shutting down. In the USA police power generally belongs to the states. The FBI can't just arbitrarily order state and local police to participate in their programs.
- NoGravitas 5y ago
  While police power generally belongs to the states, state and local police get tons of money from the federal government. It should be at least possible to withhold that money from non-compliant agencies.
  - germinalphrase 5y ago
    And they should have a right to while giving up the benefits of federal support. It appears that non-participation here is costless.
- joshstrange 5y ago
  I read: > The GAO report also says the Justice Department has largely ignored a requirement included in the 1994 crime bill to “acquire data about the use of excessive force by law enforcement officers” and “shall publish an annual summary of the data acquired.” Maybe I'm reading this wrong but I read this as "the collection is required by the crime bill passed in 1994". Even if it's not, the FBI surely has carrots and sticks they can use to force participation.
  - tabtab 5y ago
    > Even if it's not, the FBI surely has carrots and sticks they can use to force participation. But some agencies will resist anyhow because they are anti-Fed. Many rural areas have a giant mistrust of the Federal gov't. Incentives will just make them double-down. You know, the Culture Wars. To get near 100% compliance would require both a strongly-worded law and strong enforcement.

annoyingnoob 5y ago

How is anyone supposed to trust the police?

CountDrewku 5y ago
I trust the FBI less. They're too busy running around creating fake white supremacist groups to deal with real issues anyway.
technobabbler 5y ago
It's easier to trust the boys in blue when you're white and red.
throwaway0a5e 5y ago
You don't. That's the point. Police are a much more effective tool for enforcing government policy (especially the unpopular ones) if the citizenry distrust and fear them. Police who the citizenry can be confident will respect their rights are much less useful as a deterrent to those considering violating "hard to convict on". Making the public not want to even interact with the police has a force multiplier effect.
- annoyingnoob 5y ago
  An 'us vs them' narrative between citizens and government is really really unhealthy. We are all on the same team after all. It is completely reasonable to do the vast majority of, if not all, police work without being untrustworthy and unaccountable. The US Government is based on checks and balances - accountability.
  - NoGravitas 5y ago
    > We are all on the same team after all. We're really, really not. Read up on the history of policing (in particular, in the UK and the US), come back to me, and then try to say that with a straight face. A good source (ignore the inflammatory title and focus on the quality of references) is "Our Enemies in Blue: Police and Power in America" by Kristian Williams.

edoceo 5y ago

This is the same way other bureaucracy shut down programs or persons that are critical of them. The tactic of deny, defer, delay. Eg: Just do a FOIA request - wait 50+ days for the response - by which time some new bullshit is going on and everyone forgot the last one. Not just police but other government regulatory agencies too

achandlerwhite 5y ago
To be fair, I've worked at federal agencies on the receiving end of FOIA requests and for every reasonable and actionable request there are a number of unhinged, overreaching, and ill-defined requests that all were handled with due process. These ones tied up limited resources delaying responses for all requests. It was a poisoned well. But your point is well taken and I have no doubt in some situations FOIAs have been slow-walked to dissuade criticism.
- _jal 5y ago
  There is a huge amount of documented history of FOIA games a google search away. I have zero patience for public employees treating the public with contempt. I know it is a hassle, but dealing with the nutters is part of the job. Public employees that treat the public with contempt need to find a different way to feed themselves.
  - pc86 5y ago
    It's possible to treat "the nutters" with well-deserved contempt while treating reasonable people reasonably.
    - _jal 5y ago
      Not as an FOI officer. Who decides who is nutty? Some well documented stories: https://www.propublica.org/article/delayed-denied-dismissed-failures-on-the-foia-front https://www.propublica.org/article/delayed-denied-dismissed-...

nabakin 5y ago

http://web.archive.org/web/20211209160300/https://www.washingtonpost.com/crime-law/2021/12/09/fbi-police-shooting-data/ http://web.archive.org/web/20211209160300/https://www.washin...

jimbob45 5y ago

>“I’d be surprised if they didn’t make 60 percent,” said Bill Brooks, chief of the Norwood, Mass., police and a member of the International Association of Chiefs of Police board of directors. He said a key problem is that many agencies that have no force incidents are failing to input “zero reports” each month, so the agency is counted as not participating. The IACP has long supported the data collection, and low participation numbers “make us look like we’re hiding something, when in reality I don’t think that’s the case.” Doesn't seem like there's anything malicious here. Looks like a misunderstanding. The FBI needs 60% participation in order to publish their numbers and they're currently at 57%. I see no reason that they won't easily exceed that threshold.

technobabbler 5y ago
I can believe it's an honest mistake. Citizens don't always know this, but in many states, law enforcements officers have a monthly quota they have to try to reach. That quota is usually around 15, split between their duties. Therefore, if they spend 15 or 16 bullets on a teenager, that leaves them 0 reports left to make. Efficient system, huh?

papito 5y ago

If this happened under Trump, we'd be all losing our shit about hpw this was a malicious act, directed from the top.

_jal 5y ago

So you might say the FBI is forcing the public to go dark on this. Things like this usually are the way the are because someone wants them that way.

syki 5y ago

There is widespread use of non judicial punishments by police officers. Police regularly punch, kick, or otherwise cause pain on people with no repercussions or reporting. People engaged in constitutionally protected activities are often subjected to intimidation and brutality with no recourse. Oddly Americans widely believe the myth that they are free. It’s weird. You aren’t free if you can’t safely exercise your rights to police officers. People can be arrested solely for resisting arrest. Police routinely yell “stop resisting” in order to justify use of force. Police rarely arrest other police even for clearly criminal acts like domestic violence. There is a serious policing problem in the U.S. https://twitter.com/samswey/status/1180655701271732224?lang=en https://twitter.com/samswey/status/1180655701271732224?lang=...

rootusrootus 5y ago
> Americans widely believe the myth that they are free. It’s weird. You aren’t free if you can’t safely exercise your rights to police officers. By more meaningful measurements, Americans enjoy quite a lot of freedom. By your definition, essentially nobody in the world does.
- i5heu 5y ago
  There are indeed Nations that are a "Rechtsstaat" or a "state of law". Also you don't need to compare something to the worst of the same category. This is easy and lazy. Compare things to something better, or there is no progress.
  - bakuninsbart 5y ago
    Since you use the german word of Rechtsstaat, let me just say that Germany has major problems with power abuse among the police as well. As a white middle-class person, I only experienced it once myself, but it is what my immigrant friends consistently tell me, and I do tend to believe them. A major difference between the US and Germany is that this abuse is far less deadly usually. A rage-inducing example in recent years was the case of Sven W., who was beaten, abused and insulted by police for being gay. After complaining, he was then dragged in front of the court as the accused by the local DA multiple times. (https://www.queer.de/detail.php?article_id=39308 https://www.queer.de/detail.php?article_id=39308)

darksaints 5y ago

I've grown tired of ineffective policies to regulate the police. The penalty for lying under oath should be a prison sentence for perjury, not a stint on the Brady list. The penalty for excessive force should be a prison sentence for assault, not an internal affairs investigation with a month of vacation. Any use of force causing any injury at all should at least be presented to a grand jury, where impartial jurors, pulled from the public that these police are supposed to serve, can determine the reasonableness of the force used and can move to indict if necessary. We don't need any more laws, programs, investigations, or data trackers. We already have enough of those to go by....we just need prosecutors that will put cops in prison.

enchiridion 5y ago
The issue is that prosecutors works very closely with police. We need separate state level prosecutors who solely go after crimes committed by the police.
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DaveExeter 5y ago
Um...are you aware that police and prosecutors are on the same team? Police lie under oath in order to benefit prosecutors!

cataphract 5y ago

Maybe the FBI should start by lobbying to get rid of absolute immunity for their constitutional violations (minus Bivens, which the SC has been making more and more irrelevant) before supervising local police.

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oaiey 5y ago

The statement at the bottom confused me: "The compliance with the reporting has reached close to 60%" but "zero incident reports" may lead to non-compliance (bad SQL queries ... anyone?) ... what scared me: When only 40% of all police departments file zero incident reports ... that mean that 60% of all departments had violent incidents. Makes me sad.

parineum 5y ago
I think the 40% is what you should be worried about. The police are supposed to have a literal monopoly on violence. One should expect _some_ violent incidents. Remember, this isn't an "unjustified" use-of-force database, it's for all use-of-force incidents. The purpose is to be able to compare different departments number of incidents to help identify possible problem areas through comparison. If 40% of police departments are "never" using force, they are obviously lying.

justicezyx 5y ago

What's the point to asking the accused to join the project to report their own wrongdoings? Even the fully benevolent and conscientious people instinctly feel difficult to admit wrongdoings. This whole thing sounds like a shim.

Pacers31Colts18 5y ago

Seems like maybe instead of shutting it down, they should cut funding for departments that aren't participating?