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I have a secret to share. Apple and others may virtual signal but at the end of the day it's all about profits. If you believed otherwise you were mislead. "

I have a secret to share. Apple and others may virtual signal but at the end of the day it's all about profits. If you believed otherwise you were mislead. "Think Different" is just a commercial slogan.

deleted 5y ago
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wyattpeak 5y ago
I find this attitude, as common as it is, a bit of a non-argument. Every company is motivated by profits, and yet I have vastly different opinions on the behaviours of different companies. Even when you have one ultimate goal, there are a thousand different ways to go about it, including to behave in ways I find admirable in order to secure my business going forward. It's fairly irrelevant to me why you're behaving the way you are, so long as you are.
- seanmcdirmid 5y ago
  > Every company is motivated by profits, and yet I have vastly different opinions on the behaviours of different companies. Wrong, it is survival bias. Not every company is motivated by profits, but the ones that survive long enough for you to notice are. If the company isn't motivated by profits, is simply doesn't last long enough to be a major player.
  - wyattpeak 5y ago
    That's fair, I should clarify: every public is motivated by profits. I don't actually think it's survivorship bias, my local coffee shop is good to me for little other reason than the owner and I get on well, and they're not likely to go out of business any time soon. I just didn't specify my point well enough.
    - seanmcdirmid 5y ago
      Your little coffee shop goes out of business if they don't attract enough business, if they have competitors that provide a better product for example. But even then, you are rewarding their good behavior directly, if you want to scale that up, you and and a bunch of your friends will need to stop buying Apple products to let them know you find their behavior to not be of your liking (and become patrons of the companies that do conform to your moral values). But scaling morality is hard without some sort of restricted market intervention.
      - wyattpeak 5y ago
        I'm going to disagree with you there. I agree that their bottom line benefits from their being nice to me, but that's not the same as being motivated by profit. Similarly, I'm not looking to obsessively optimise for the best product. I find your description distastefully cynical, but more importantly not particularly in line with my experience of how people behave.
        seanmcdirmid 5y ago
        I guess we have to agree to disagree. In order to get Apple to stop their behavior, you either have to regulate morality and go beyond not just buying their products, but forcing others to not buy them either.
gonehome 5y ago
Corporations are made up of people and people can make decisions despite incentives to behave otherwise. I’d argue Zuckerberg did this in his Georgetown speech [0]. Recently the head of the woman’s tennis association did too when pulling out of China. Palantir is also principled about this (read their S1) - though incentives are more aligned there. Add in the South Park writers too. It is possible to do the right thing in difficult contexts - and that should be the goal. [0]: https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2019/10/17/zuckerberg-standing-voice-free-expression/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2019/10/17/zuckerb...
- hereforphone 5y ago
  Easy to do when A - You have the "right" opinions (they aren't politically incorrect or unpopular among your target customer demographic), and/or B - You are insanely rich.
  - gonehome 5y ago
    Sure, it’s when it’s hard that principles actually count for anything. Anyone can have “principles” when it’s also easy to have them. Someone should mention that to Ray Dalio.
  - rtpg 5y ago
    Right, it's clear that Apple does not have any financial resources or pull in the industry. Not like they have enough money to personally just build up an entire city of factories somewhere.
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ripbubu 5y ago
On Tyranny is a great read.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

wyattpeak 5y ago

I find this attitude, as common as it is, a bit of a non-argument. Every company is motivated by profits, and yet I have vastly different opinions on the behaviours of different companies. Even when you have one ultimate goal, there are a thousand different ways to go about it, including to behave in ways I find admirable in order to secure my business going forward. It's fairly irrelevant to me why you're behaving the way you are, so long as you are.

seanmcdirmid 5y ago
> Every company is motivated by profits, and yet I have vastly different opinions on the behaviours of different companies. Wrong, it is survival bias. Not every company is motivated by profits, but the ones that survive long enough for you to notice are. If the company isn't motivated by profits, is simply doesn't last long enough to be a major player.
- wyattpeak 5y ago
  That's fair, I should clarify: every public is motivated by profits. I don't actually think it's survivorship bias, my local coffee shop is good to me for little other reason than the owner and I get on well, and they're not likely to go out of business any time soon. I just didn't specify my point well enough.
  - seanmcdirmid 5y ago
    Your little coffee shop goes out of business if they don't attract enough business, if they have competitors that provide a better product for example. But even then, you are rewarding their good behavior directly, if you want to scale that up, you and and a bunch of your friends will need to stop buying Apple products to let them know you find their behavior to not be of your liking (and become patrons of the companies that do conform to your moral values). But scaling morality is hard without some sort of restricted market intervention.
    - wyattpeak 5y ago
      I'm going to disagree with you there. I agree that their bottom line benefits from their being nice to me, but that's not the same as being motivated by profit. Similarly, I'm not looking to obsessively optimise for the best product. I find your description distastefully cynical, but more importantly not particularly in line with my experience of how people behave.
      - seanmcdirmid 5y ago
        I guess we have to agree to disagree. In order to get Apple to stop their behavior, you either have to regulate morality and go beyond not just buying their products, but forcing others to not buy them either.

gonehome 5y ago

Corporations are made up of people and people can make decisions despite incentives to behave otherwise. I’d argue Zuckerberg did this in his Georgetown speech [0]. Recently the head of the woman’s tennis association did too when pulling out of China. Palantir is also principled about this (read their S1) - though incentives are more aligned there. Add in the South Park writers too. It is possible to do the right thing in difficult contexts - and that should be the goal. [0]: https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2019/10/17/zuckerberg-standing-voice-free-expression/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2019/10/17/zuckerb...

hereforphone 5y ago
Easy to do when A - You have the "right" opinions (they aren't politically incorrect or unpopular among your target customer demographic), and/or B - You are insanely rich.
- gonehome 5y ago
  Sure, it’s when it’s hard that principles actually count for anything. Anyone can have “principles” when it’s also easy to have them. Someone should mention that to Ray Dalio.
- rtpg 5y ago
  Right, it's clear that Apple does not have any financial resources or pull in the industry. Not like they have enough money to personally just build up an entire city of factories somewhere.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

ripbubu 5y ago

On Tyranny is a great read.