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>> 32 ETH is a lot. > The point is that the staking contracts were set at 32 ETH since the time when ETH was about $100. That's not relevant because they're s

>> 32 ETH is a lot. > The point is that the staking contracts were set at 32 ETH since the time when ETH was about $100. That's not relevant because they're still in the category of "people who have $130k to stake". Kind of doesn't matter how you came about it. >> ETH sticks around "forever". > Not since July, when the EIP-1159 introduced gas fee burn. Oh cool I didn't know that. I guess this is to avoid the money laundering via gas fees thing--your ETH gets black holed instead? Again I don't know that it's that relevant though. With oil--again your example--you only get utility out of it by destroying it. It's not like I have to burn ETH to light a lamp, destroying that ETH forever. So I still think it's less like an expendable, finite resource and more like a currency or a security. But all that said, Ethereum users don't want Ether to all get burned, right? I assume what everything thinks will happen is that the increasing scarcity increases the value of unburned ETH, so that even if there's 1 ETH left it's still worth $50 gazillion or whatever and we just trade fractions of it. So also not like oil, because it would be pretty weird if every time I burned a teaspoon of it every other barrel of oil became more... flammable? >> network is pretty inefficient right now. (...) And there are networks with faster transactions rates! > The mistake you are making is that - like the $130k comment above - you are thinking in terms of a static system. Ethereum is constant development precisely as a way to address the bottlenecks that are being hit. > There are already people using Layer-2 systems for making transfers and for decentralized exchanges. This year we also are starting to see more complete scaling solutions. The more Layer-2 solutions come up, the less important the base-layer performance becomes for users. Layer-2 is an MEV-generating machine, and there's no way around it. It's fundamental because L2 is a desync from the chain. It doesn't really matter for dApps, and maybe it's tolerable for payments and such too, but we're stacking a lot of caveats on "send money to anyone anywhere at any time (also pay gas fees also they have to get a wallet also you'll get MEV'd). Plus, how is this not just middlemen (miners, banks) running yet more rent-seeking operations on yet another payment system? And we're not even talking about all the different incompatibilities between different L2 solutions. > Talking about the base-layer when it has been widely established that Ethereum is heading to the direction of scaling through roll-ups and other layer-2 systems is either ignorance or intellectual dishonesty. There's a third option you should consider carefully: that you're wrong and someone's trying to politely point it out to you. You're super closed-minded about this stuff, and I think you'd benefit from a little introspection as to why. You and I are just a couple of naive humans stumbling ignorantly through an infinite darkness. We know almost nothing and are almost always wrong about everything. The only reason I know anything about crypto is I assumed I was wrong about it and read a bunch. I'm just representing what I think; I'm not astroturfing; I'm not talking my own book. I'm not saying I'm not ignorant; I am! But it's possible I'm not as ignorant as you think I am. > <democracy stuff> Look I'm no strong defender of the current state of democracy, and I'm pretty anti-capitalist. I just don't think blockchains are good solutions to governmental problems (or, good solutions to any problem tbh). If you want to argue that blockchains return power to people and are decentralized, you have to answer for multiple successful 51% attacks and Ethereum in particular hard forking the chain for political/financial reasons. > Do you own any stock? Pension funds? a 401-k? Worked for any VC-funded company? Bought anything made in China even though you knew there was an alternative product made in $wherever_you_live? > Then yes, you are profiting off of it. So please just get off the high horse. There is no ethical consumption under capitalism. That said, there's a difference between incidental consumption and direct exploitation and subversion. Maybe it seems like I'm high-roading you, but I don't think capitalist consumption gives us ethical carte blanche. "Hey I know I scammed millions of people but, I had a 401k and you know what they say, in for a penny in for a pound". Yeah, that rings false.

rglullis 5y ago
> The only reason I know anything about crypto is I assumed I was wrong about it and read a bunch. You know what is so grating about this conversation? Every comment you wrote shows your knowledge is incomplete and based on only what you heard/read, and yet you talk like you know all the theory and therefore you can prove how it doesn't work in practice. When presented with new information that shows how you are wrong, you double down on your theoretical background instead of looking at what people empirically achieved. You end up sounding like someone who studied a bit of aerodynamics and then goes to believe they can teach birds how to fly. Or worse, you see a beetle flying in your face and start claiming "this is physically impossible, it's not real!" Please, don't be those people who can not do anything useful with their life and end up just shitting or doubting on the works of others.
rglullis 5y ago
(I started writing this, but I realized that you are not going to change your mind no matter what new information gets presented to you. So do whatever you want with it) The whole thing about "L2 is a MEV-generating machine". Fucking hell, dude. If someone tells you (like I did in another thread) that you can not make an international transaction without losing at least 7% of the value, and that I already have made and received payments on layer-2 systems for fractions of a cent, what is so hard to acknowledge that the people doing it are not idiots? Setup costs are one-off and independent of the value you are transferring off-chain. They are amortized through all the lifetime of your "account" and the transactions you made. Paypal does not work like that. Credit cards do not work like that. Loopring does. Zksync does. Even if all these systems did was to make transfers of stabletokens from A to B, they would be already miles ahead of the status quo. Yes, there are still "middlemen", but they are both (a) cheaper compared with existing methods and (b) part of a global market with no monopoly. Almost all of the tech that is being adopted is open-source, so there is no large competitive advantage that one can establish over the other. If a roll-up starts trying to jack up fees, others can basically make a clone and take all of the userbase overnight.

rglullis 5y ago

> The only reason I know anything about crypto is I assumed I was wrong about it and read a bunch. You know what is so grating about this conversation? Every comment you wrote shows your knowledge is incomplete and based on only what you heard/read, and yet you talk like you know all the theory and therefore you can prove how it doesn't work in practice. When presented with new information that shows how you are wrong, you double down on your theoretical background instead of looking at what people empirically achieved. You end up sounding like someone who studied a bit of aerodynamics and then goes to believe they can teach birds how to fly. Or worse, you see a beetle flying in your face and start claiming "this is physically impossible, it's not real!" Please, don't be those people who can not do anything useful with their life and end up just shitting or doubting on the works of others.

rglullis 5y ago

(I started writing this, but I realized that you are not going to change your mind no matter what new information gets presented to you. So do whatever you want with it) The whole thing about "L2 is a MEV-generating machine". Fucking hell, dude. If someone tells you (like I did in another thread) that you can not make an international transaction without losing at least 7% of the value, and that I already have made and received payments on layer-2 systems for fractions of a cent, what is so hard to acknowledge that the people doing it are not idiots? Setup costs are one-off and independent of the value you are transferring off-chain. They are amortized through all the lifetime of your "account" and the transactions you made. Paypal does not work like that. Credit cards do not work like that. Loopring does. Zksync does. Even if all these systems did was to make transfers of stabletokens from A to B, they would be already miles ahead of the status quo. Yes, there are still "middlemen", but they are both (a) cheaper compared with existing methods and (b) part of a global market with no monopoly. Almost all of the tech that is being adopted is open-source, so there is no large competitive advantage that one can establish over the other. If a roll-up starts trying to jack up fees, others can basically make a clone and take all of the userbase overnight.