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This is some kind of reverse "what did the Romans do for us" satire, right? "But apart from killing 80% of the native population, who definitely weren't slaves

This is some kind of reverse "what did the Romans do for us" satire, right? "But apart from killing 80% of the native population, who definitely weren't slaves because in return for their forced labour they were forcibly converted to Catholicism, what exactly did the Spanish do wrong?" The bills of rights were inspired by the extent of the conquistadors' brutality, were generally ignored and the New Laws lasted three whole years and one dead viceroy before the Spanish settlers forced the King to back down. I'm not sure missionaries teaching one nobleman Spanish so that he could write a petition to be ignored really offsets that.

djsbs 5y ago
They weren't killed, they died of diseases. As we see today with the pandemic, the respiratory illnesses were unstoppable, so you cant ascribe guilt through some assumed knowledge of proto-germ theory. The first law is from 1512, 20 years after the discover of the Americas. Given transportation at the time it is clear that he vast majority of the troops overthrowing the Inca were recruited by the subjugated native peoples. Kinda what progressives [1] tried to do in Afghanistan. Pray, what noble accomplishment do we have to show in Afghanistan after 20 years? The enslavement of natives was against the law of King. Ignored by criminals, sure, but the law was clear and its violators criminals. Forced conversion to Catholicism from a blood thirst cult that stained their monuments with the blood of innocents. Ya, they were real bad for that. Btw, if you insist on cultural relativism, what were progressives doing in Afghanistan but proselytizing feminism? [1] I used the word progressive, as opposed to Americans, on purpose as the war was a multi nation effort cheered on by people, “right” or “left” who believe we have to impose democracy and liberalism on others. I remember before 9/11 when leftist wanted to liberate Afghani women. I remember in August, when leftists were aghast we left the women behind
- Gabriel_Martin 5y ago
  "Forced conversion to Catholicism from a blood thirst cult that stained their monuments with the blood of innocents" Not sure you want to bring into focus Catholicism's history as it relates to the blood of innocents..
  - dang 5y ago
    Please do not take HN threads further into nationalistic or (god help us) religious flamewar. It's not what this site is for, and it destroys what it is for. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
    - Gabriel_Martin 5y ago
      Sorry, I took the bait. My bad.
  - djsbs 5y ago
    @Gabriel Martin. “ Not sure you want to bring into focus Catholicism's history on the blood of innocents..” Go for it. I’ll defend the sins of Rome against the depravities of any other civilization, including and especially our own.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
  - christkv 5y ago
    I don’t know compared to what major faith. Name of one that has not perpetrated mass murder in name of some deity or idea.
    - shrimp_emoji 5y ago
      A safe bet is this one, which is also one of the most ancient ones that still exists today: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jainism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jainism
  - shrimp_emoji 5y ago
    It's funny to reflect on the context, too. The Inca were probably the most astonishingly advanced Native Americans, and they surely had great thinkers (definitely great engineers). And here come the conquistadors, rock-headed barbarians from the most desperate segments of Spanish society (little else drove people to risk their life for riches in the New World), absolutely slaughtering them, burning their cultural artifacts or melting them down into ingots when applicable. It's like if (a much more desperate and destitute version of) the January 6th protesters were sent to conquer new worlds. As an aside, a colorful example[0]: they lured the Emperor in a plaza (he came to show he was unafraid, and his army were disarmed of all but ceremonial weapons), and, in the slaughter that ensued, they tried capturing him. He was up on a palanquin, carried by servants. Unable to reach him, the Spanish began cutting off the limbs of the servants, who it's said, without thinking, bore the load on their shoulders instead (it was unthinkable to do otherwise, as they considered the Emperor a god). Eventually, they captured him. In captivity, they taught him to play Chess, and I think it's said he was good at it. Later, panicked that an army was going to come and re-capture him, they killed him. Before his death, he was offered conversion to Catholicism, which he accepted, which awarded him the clemency of being strangled instead of burned alive. 0: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Cajamarca https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Cajamarca
- notahacker 5y ago
  The Law of 1512 formalised the econmienda system, which was slavery in all but name. The best thing to be said for it is that it was intended to be less brutal than what had already happened and what continued to happen. Diseases decimated the population north and south of the Rio Grande, but it was south of it that the much greater populations also died from overwork (not that the British and French were any better; they just imported their slaves from elsewhere). You will forgive me for not engaging further if you are the sort of person that regards the econmienda system as a magnificent accomplishment, especially compared with the horrors of female education "leftists" inflicted in Afghanistan. It is the same reason I don't speak to the sort of person that argues the holocaust was basically self defence and signs his posts off Deutschland Uber Alles.
  - jcranmer 5y ago
    > (not that the British and French were any better; they just imported their slaves from elsewhere). I should point out that the Spanish also imported slaves from Africa in prodigious quantities. However, instead of doing it themselves, the Spanish crown let out a single contract for who would be the sole importer of slaves into the American colonies (the asiento)--and all of the major maritime powers of Europe were vying to win that contract at various points in time.
  - hihihihi1234 5y ago
    If you find the term "Deutschland Uber Alles" problematic then you'd be horrified if you ever watch Germany at the football world cup, because "Deutschland Uber Alles" is not a Nazi or fascistic slogan but is a lyric from the current German national anthem.
    - notahacker 5y ago
      And ¡Viva España! is entirely unproblematic except when thrown into revisionist history troll posts. Similarly, regardless of whether the average German ever feels inclined to use the "Deutschland uber alles" phrase at all, if they're using it in forum posts arguing the way German soldiers treated conquered peoples was pretty reasonable actually, they're signalling something quite different to excitement about Die Mannschaft reaching another final Anyway, every time I've watched Germany at the World Cup they only sing the third verse of the Deutschlandlied which doesn't include that phrase. You'd be shocked to learn why it's fallen out of fashion. So that was a really pointless tangent for you to go off on...
Darmody 5y ago
They didn't kill the native population. Horrible crimes were committed but not genocide. The crimes committed there were not different than the ones committed in Europe between Europeans. The conquistadores were able to overthrow an Empire because they made allies with everybody else who was bullied by them. Sadly diseases killed a lot of people. More than 90% of the deaths were caused by said diseases, I think it was close to 94%. If Spaniards were marrying into the native nobility is because it mattered to the locals as they were the majority.
- djsbs 5y ago
  One minor quip “ The crimes committed there were not different than the ones committed in Europe between Europeans.” Just over 100 years ago Belgians were “harvesting” the right arms of Congolese for who knows what reason. The Spaniards were always much more benign than their Northern cousins.
  - Darmody 5y ago
    Well, I wasn't comparing it to what other countries did with their colonies. I was comparing it to what Europeans did to themselves. Oh, by the way. Spain never had colonies. They had provinces and everyone in those provinces was just as citizen of the empire as someone from current Spain.
    - bigwavedave 5y ago
      > Oh, by the way, Spain never had colonies. They had provinces and everyone in those provinces was just as citizen of the empire as someone from current Spain. Um. Okay. A colony is: 1. "an area over which a foreign nation or state extends or maintains control" and 2. "a group of people who establish residence in that area and who retain ties with the parent state."[1] So, to say that Spain had no colonies is patently false- it most certainly had pockets of emigrants from the homeland who were still culturally tied to it and under its rule (the Philippines, Louisiana, any number of Caribbean islands, colonial Mexico, and the list goes on and on during Siglo de Oro and beyond). I don't have a horse in this race, but if you wanna act like a pedant, you're gonna be treated like one. Ridiculous. [1] https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/colony https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/colony

djsbs 5y ago

They weren't killed, they died of diseases. As we see today with the pandemic, the respiratory illnesses were unstoppable, so you cant ascribe guilt through some assumed knowledge of proto-germ theory. The first law is from 1512, 20 years after the discover of the Americas. Given transportation at the time it is clear that he vast majority of the troops overthrowing the Inca were recruited by the subjugated native peoples. Kinda what progressives [1] tried to do in Afghanistan. Pray, what noble accomplishment do we have to show in Afghanistan after 20 years? The enslavement of natives was against the law of King. Ignored by criminals, sure, but the law was clear and its violators criminals. Forced conversion to Catholicism from a blood thirst cult that stained their monuments with the blood of innocents. Ya, they were real bad for that. Btw, if you insist on cultural relativism, what were progressives doing in Afghanistan but proselytizing feminism? [1] I used the word progressive, as opposed to Americans, on purpose as the war was a multi nation effort cheered on by people, “right” or “left” who believe we have to impose democracy and liberalism on others. I remember before 9/11 when leftist wanted to liberate Afghani women. I remember in August, when leftists were aghast we left the women behind

Gabriel_Martin 5y ago
"Forced conversion to Catholicism from a blood thirst cult that stained their monuments with the blood of innocents" Not sure you want to bring into focus Catholicism's history as it relates to the blood of innocents..
- dang 5y ago
  Please do not take HN threads further into nationalistic or (god help us) religious flamewar. It's not what this site is for, and it destroys what it is for. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
  - Gabriel_Martin 5y ago
    Sorry, I took the bait. My bad.
- djsbs 5y ago
  @Gabriel Martin. “ Not sure you want to bring into focus Catholicism's history on the blood of innocents..” Go for it. I’ll defend the sins of Rome against the depravities of any other civilization, including and especially our own.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
- christkv 5y ago
  I don’t know compared to what major faith. Name of one that has not perpetrated mass murder in name of some deity or idea.
  - shrimp_emoji 5y ago
    A safe bet is this one, which is also one of the most ancient ones that still exists today: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jainism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jainism
- shrimp_emoji 5y ago
  It's funny to reflect on the context, too. The Inca were probably the most astonishingly advanced Native Americans, and they surely had great thinkers (definitely great engineers). And here come the conquistadors, rock-headed barbarians from the most desperate segments of Spanish society (little else drove people to risk their life for riches in the New World), absolutely slaughtering them, burning their cultural artifacts or melting them down into ingots when applicable. It's like if (a much more desperate and destitute version of) the January 6th protesters were sent to conquer new worlds. As an aside, a colorful example[0]: they lured the Emperor in a plaza (he came to show he was unafraid, and his army were disarmed of all but ceremonial weapons), and, in the slaughter that ensued, they tried capturing him. He was up on a palanquin, carried by servants. Unable to reach him, the Spanish began cutting off the limbs of the servants, who it's said, without thinking, bore the load on their shoulders instead (it was unthinkable to do otherwise, as they considered the Emperor a god). Eventually, they captured him. In captivity, they taught him to play Chess, and I think it's said he was good at it. Later, panicked that an army was going to come and re-capture him, they killed him. Before his death, he was offered conversion to Catholicism, which he accepted, which awarded him the clemency of being strangled instead of burned alive. 0: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Cajamarca https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Cajamarca
notahacker 5y ago
The Law of 1512 formalised the econmienda system, which was slavery in all but name. The best thing to be said for it is that it was intended to be less brutal than what had already happened and what continued to happen. Diseases decimated the population north and south of the Rio Grande, but it was south of it that the much greater populations also died from overwork (not that the British and French were any better; they just imported their slaves from elsewhere). You will forgive me for not engaging further if you are the sort of person that regards the econmienda system as a magnificent accomplishment, especially compared with the horrors of female education "leftists" inflicted in Afghanistan. It is the same reason I don't speak to the sort of person that argues the holocaust was basically self defence and signs his posts off Deutschland Uber Alles.
- jcranmer 5y ago
  > (not that the British and French were any better; they just imported their slaves from elsewhere). I should point out that the Spanish also imported slaves from Africa in prodigious quantities. However, instead of doing it themselves, the Spanish crown let out a single contract for who would be the sole importer of slaves into the American colonies (the asiento)--and all of the major maritime powers of Europe were vying to win that contract at various points in time.
- hihihihi1234 5y ago
  If you find the term "Deutschland Uber Alles" problematic then you'd be horrified if you ever watch Germany at the football world cup, because "Deutschland Uber Alles" is not a Nazi or fascistic slogan but is a lyric from the current German national anthem.
  - notahacker 5y ago
    And ¡Viva España! is entirely unproblematic except when thrown into revisionist history troll posts. Similarly, regardless of whether the average German ever feels inclined to use the "Deutschland uber alles" phrase at all, if they're using it in forum posts arguing the way German soldiers treated conquered peoples was pretty reasonable actually, they're signalling something quite different to excitement about Die Mannschaft reaching another final Anyway, every time I've watched Germany at the World Cup they only sing the third verse of the Deutschlandlied which doesn't include that phrase. You'd be shocked to learn why it's fallen out of fashion. So that was a really pointless tangent for you to go off on...

Darmody 5y ago

They didn't kill the native population. Horrible crimes were committed but not genocide. The crimes committed there were not different than the ones committed in Europe between Europeans. The conquistadores were able to overthrow an Empire because they made allies with everybody else who was bullied by them. Sadly diseases killed a lot of people. More than 90% of the deaths were caused by said diseases, I think it was close to 94%. If Spaniards were marrying into the native nobility is because it mattered to the locals as they were the majority.

djsbs 5y ago
One minor quip “ The crimes committed there were not different than the ones committed in Europe between Europeans.” Just over 100 years ago Belgians were “harvesting” the right arms of Congolese for who knows what reason. The Spaniards were always much more benign than their Northern cousins.
- Darmody 5y ago
  Well, I wasn't comparing it to what other countries did with their colonies. I was comparing it to what Europeans did to themselves. Oh, by the way. Spain never had colonies. They had provinces and everyone in those provinces was just as citizen of the empire as someone from current Spain.
  - bigwavedave 5y ago
    > Oh, by the way, Spain never had colonies. They had provinces and everyone in those provinces was just as citizen of the empire as someone from current Spain. Um. Okay. A colony is: 1. "an area over which a foreign nation or state extends or maintains control" and 2. "a group of people who establish residence in that area and who retain ties with the parent state."[1] So, to say that Spain had no colonies is patently false- it most certainly had pockets of emigrants from the homeland who were still culturally tied to it and under its rule (the Philippines, Louisiana, any number of Caribbean islands, colonial Mexico, and the list goes on and on during Siglo de Oro and beyond). I don't have a horse in this race, but if you wanna act like a pedant, you're gonna be treated like one. Ridiculous. [1] https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/colony https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/colony