7 ms·

Dyson loses fight for $198M compensation over EU energy labelling rules

44 points by matthewmorgan 5y ago

leoh 5y ago
Does anyone have any precise details to help affirm or deny Dyson’s claims?
- agustif 5y ago
  No but he peddled brexit and then moved production to singapore... You might default to not trusting a guy who does that...
  - snickmy 5y ago
    I didn't know that Dyson actually peddled Brexit. That is a massive disappointment on such a brilliant person. (I'd love to read more if you have references)
    - afandian 5y ago
      It's all out in the open, he pushed for Brexit[0] citing British competetivity ... and then moved production out of Britain to Singapore. Got any references for 'briliant person'‽ [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Dyson#Pro-Brexit https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Dyson#Pro-Brexit
    - rocketbop 5y ago
      It was widely reported in the press at the time a quick Google will provide a lot of results.
    - blibble 5y ago
      given his experience with EU energy labelling laws his position really isn't that unreasonable (essentially the laws were bought and paid for by his competitors) and they were annulled: https://curia.europa.eu/jcms/upload/docs/application/pdf/2018-11/cp180168en.pdf https://curia.europa.eu/jcms/upload/docs/application/pdf/201...
      - emn13 5y ago
        Well, so he claims. Is that actually true? But regardless; even if he had reason to dislike certain regulators - that makes for a really poor reason to argue to remove yourself from the equation when it comes to influence over those regulations. If anything, if indeed the rule-making process was corrupt, that argues against Brexit, not for it (from the perspective of business primarily involved in selling goods affected by those regulations). In fact, it sounds like those regulations hurt his competitors at least as much as Dyson: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/21/anger-as-eu-bans-most-powerful-vacuum-cleaners https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/21/anger-as-eu-ba... - "Dyson vacuum cleaners score highly in the ratings. However, the manufacturer has many concerns about flaws in the system that will ultimately be unhelpful for consumers." Notably, Dyson "won" in that review; it only lost the case for hundreds of millions in damages.
        blibble 5y ago
        > that makes for a really poor reason to argue to remove yourself from the equation when it comes to influence over those regulations. here's a few Dyson subsidiaries: - Dyson BV (Dutch) - Dyson Austria GmbH - Dyson GmbH (German) - Dyson Finland Oy - Dyson Ireland Ltd - Dyson SAS (France) - Dyson Spain SLU - Dyson Sweden AB - Dyson sp zoo Poland it's a large multinational, not some micro-enterprise, brexit has little to no impact on his ability to "influence" regulations
        emn13 5y ago
        Of course it does - as a well known British business, it'll get the kind of attention and care from its home turf it won't elsewhere in the form of some small subsidiary. And the guy isn't exactly known for being timid or restrained; he's tried to litigate his grievances in via the press repeatedly - and that's going to be less effective moving forward. Even if he gets a hearing in the continental press (which I kind of doubt, because why would the public care?), he and his business are likely to be defined by his brexiteer stance - not exactly a great way to sway opinion his way. (And just to be sure to undermine his British support, he decided to move to Singapore too... I guess that's his own little Brexit?) Most other sane business tried to stay away from this whole minefield at least in public, and that sure looks like the better call in retrospect.
  - 2wrist 5y ago
    and then was given a ventilator contract, with fanfare, at the start of the pandemic when there was a shortage, (whilst the government wasn't answering the phone from actual ventilator manufacturers) then they couldn't deliver. I will never by a dyson product.
    - sam_lowry_ 5y ago
      I have a DC-62 vacuum cleaner and its a hell to empty. Batteries are short-lived and expensive. Their hand dryers are perfect microbe an virus spreading tools, apparently. Their kind of "airco" ventilators do not cool the air. So yes, Dyson is a failed brand.
      - maxehmookau 5y ago
        I don't think this is entirely fair. Separating the man from the brand, the products are pretty good. My dyson vacuum is excellent, even with a dog. My wife has the hairdryer which she loves. He did advocate for Brexit and then move production offshore though. So take the rough with the smooth.
        cesaref 5y ago
        Agreed. I remember reading his autobiography back in 2005 or so, and thinking what a weird self-centred individual he was. I certainly don't agree with his politics. However, I think there's no doubt that Dyson make great vacuum cleaners.
        maxehmookau 5y ago
        He's a bit strange, from my eyes anyway. He's done some great things for UK innovation and product design. Politics aside, we shouldn't detract from that. But my wife can dry her hair in less than 20 minutes, and it's quiet. Well worth the money!
      - turtlebits 5y ago
        How is it hard to empty? The bottom just flips open. And there are lots of battery options- 3rd party ones aren't expensive.
  - smnrchrds 5y ago
    Why Singapore out of all places? It seems a very expensive place to start a manufacturing company.
    - azalemeth 5y ago
      They're mostly not manufactured in Singapore. They're designed in Singapore (formerly the UK), manufactured mostly in Malaysia and the Philipines (where labour is cheaper, [1]) and I presume the shift is entirely for tax reasons – in contrast to the UK it has far lower corporate taxation rates, and relevantly for Dyson himself, no capital gains tax at all [2] unlike the UK, which I presume will dramatically improve his income. The fact that they'll be in / closer to the same timezone as the manufacturing base probably helps as well. [1] https://www.quora.com/Where-and-how-are-Dyson-vacuums-made?share=1 https://www.quora.com/Where-and-how-are-Dyson-vacuums-made?s... [2] https://ebos-sg.com/singapore-is-a-tax-haven/ https://ebos-sg.com/singapore-is-a-tax-haven/
  - mytailorisrich 5y ago
    Even before that, as reported in the news in 2011 he stealthily built a swimming pool in the basement of his listed mansion without planning permission. He obviously knew what he was doing and it worked since, although he was later caught, he managed to escape prosecution and was granted retrospective permission... I'm not sure authorities would have been that understanding with everyone.
- snickmy 5y ago
  This similar to another case where Dyson was arguing that some standard for performance verification are unfair to their product (https://arstechnica.com/science/2016/04/dyson-dryers-hurl-60x-more-viruses-most-at-kid-face-height-than-other-dryers/ https://arstechnica.com/science/2016/04/dyson-dryers-hurl-60... ) They usually use as reference their own test methodology, which is overall a bit pointless. Either make it a standard, or adhere to one.
- emn13 5y ago
  The court apparently agreed that the standard was flawed - it scrapped the standard! The court simply held the commission did not "manifestly and gravely disregard the limits [...]" to the point where dyson deserves hundreds of millions in compensation. i.e. to the extent that Dyson lost, it's revolving not around the energy efficiency bit itself (it won that part), but rather the claims that it lost hundreds of millions due to these rules and that the rules were so egregious it deserves compensation for that loss.
- Arnt 5y ago
  IIRC: Dyson said that the tests weren't representative of real use, and that if they used a vacuum cleaner all the way from empty to full, Dyson's would score much better. A court agreed that the tests weren't good and ordered improvement. Dyson then asked for financial compensation. A court said the tests weren't bad enough to warrant any compensation.
robga 5y ago
It’s a dirty industry (snort!) Howling, germ bellowing airblades are a personal dislike of mine. https://www.theguardian.com/society/2019/apr/25/hand-dryers-paper-towels-hygiene-dyson-airblade https://www.theguardian.com/society/2019/apr/25/hand-dryers-...
bastardoperator 5y ago
I never understood the appeal of Dyson products.
- agustif 5y ago
  Marketing. Good (looking) design. Money for patents and more marketing. I had one at some time in my life, it was OK but not life changing to cost 10x what a normal regular vacuum would cost. It's just like any luxury item mostly flexing and status signaling through purchasing stuff, or so it seems to me
- IcyClAyMptHe 5y ago
  I understood them back when my parents bought a Dyson bagless vacuum back in the early 2000s (iirc). It was high tech, powerful (I still remember them showing me how much more dust and dog hair it pulled out of the carpet), and advertised no loss of suction. Unfortunately it did lose suction over time, and was eventually replaced by an absolutely ancient Kirby vac (the kind that were sold by door to door salesmen god knows how long ago), which is built like a tank and still works perfectly well today. Probably the sort of thing I'd put in the "buy it for life" category. I still kind of put Dyson in that early 2000s category of products - both for aesthetic and general attitude reasons. It has that energy of "it's the year 2000, so stuff is now HIGH TECH", but often times the older, less flashy stuff is still better.
  - roydivision 5y ago
    I’m not a Dyson apologist, but when ours started losing suction cleaning an easily accessible air filter cartridge fixed the problem.
- GuB-42 5y ago
  They used to make the only bagless vacuum cleaners that worked well, it is not really the case anymore, probably due to patents expiring, but they still the big name brand. And their bladeless fans, while not really better at moving air than regular fans, they are certainly stylish. I personally think that they make overpriced items and are not worth it anymore, but I understand the appeal.

44 points by matthewmorgan 5y ago

leoh 5y ago

Does anyone have any precise details to help affirm or deny Dyson’s claims?

agustif 5y ago
No but he peddled brexit and then moved production to singapore... You might default to not trusting a guy who does that...
- snickmy 5y ago
  I didn't know that Dyson actually peddled Brexit. That is a massive disappointment on such a brilliant person. (I'd love to read more if you have references)
  - afandian 5y ago
    It's all out in the open, he pushed for Brexit[0] citing British competetivity ... and then moved production out of Britain to Singapore. Got any references for 'briliant person'‽ [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Dyson#Pro-Brexit https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Dyson#Pro-Brexit
  - rocketbop 5y ago
    It was widely reported in the press at the time a quick Google will provide a lot of results.
  - blibble 5y ago
    given his experience with EU energy labelling laws his position really isn't that unreasonable (essentially the laws were bought and paid for by his competitors) and they were annulled: https://curia.europa.eu/jcms/upload/docs/application/pdf/2018-11/cp180168en.pdf https://curia.europa.eu/jcms/upload/docs/application/pdf/201...
    - emn13 5y ago
      Well, so he claims. Is that actually true? But regardless; even if he had reason to dislike certain regulators - that makes for a really poor reason to argue to remove yourself from the equation when it comes to influence over those regulations. If anything, if indeed the rule-making process was corrupt, that argues against Brexit, not for it (from the perspective of business primarily involved in selling goods affected by those regulations). In fact, it sounds like those regulations hurt his competitors at least as much as Dyson: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/21/anger-as-eu-bans-most-powerful-vacuum-cleaners https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/21/anger-as-eu-ba... - "Dyson vacuum cleaners score highly in the ratings. However, the manufacturer has many concerns about flaws in the system that will ultimately be unhelpful for consumers." Notably, Dyson "won" in that review; it only lost the case for hundreds of millions in damages.
      - blibble 5y ago
        > that makes for a really poor reason to argue to remove yourself from the equation when it comes to influence over those regulations. here's a few Dyson subsidiaries: - Dyson BV (Dutch) - Dyson Austria GmbH - Dyson GmbH (German) - Dyson Finland Oy - Dyson Ireland Ltd - Dyson SAS (France) - Dyson Spain SLU - Dyson Sweden AB - Dyson sp zoo Poland it's a large multinational, not some micro-enterprise, brexit has little to no impact on his ability to "influence" regulations
        emn13 5y ago
        Of course it does - as a well known British business, it'll get the kind of attention and care from its home turf it won't elsewhere in the form of some small subsidiary. And the guy isn't exactly known for being timid or restrained; he's tried to litigate his grievances in via the press repeatedly - and that's going to be less effective moving forward. Even if he gets a hearing in the continental press (which I kind of doubt, because why would the public care?), he and his business are likely to be defined by his brexiteer stance - not exactly a great way to sway opinion his way. (And just to be sure to undermine his British support, he decided to move to Singapore too... I guess that's his own little Brexit?) Most other sane business tried to stay away from this whole minefield at least in public, and that sure looks like the better call in retrospect.
- 2wrist 5y ago
  and then was given a ventilator contract, with fanfare, at the start of the pandemic when there was a shortage, (whilst the government wasn't answering the phone from actual ventilator manufacturers) then they couldn't deliver. I will never by a dyson product.
  - sam_lowry_ 5y ago
    I have a DC-62 vacuum cleaner and its a hell to empty. Batteries are short-lived and expensive. Their hand dryers are perfect microbe an virus spreading tools, apparently. Their kind of "airco" ventilators do not cool the air. So yes, Dyson is a failed brand.
    - maxehmookau 5y ago
      I don't think this is entirely fair. Separating the man from the brand, the products are pretty good. My dyson vacuum is excellent, even with a dog. My wife has the hairdryer which she loves. He did advocate for Brexit and then move production offshore though. So take the rough with the smooth.
      - cesaref 5y ago
        Agreed. I remember reading his autobiography back in 2005 or so, and thinking what a weird self-centred individual he was. I certainly don't agree with his politics. However, I think there's no doubt that Dyson make great vacuum cleaners.
        maxehmookau 5y ago
        He's a bit strange, from my eyes anyway. He's done some great things for UK innovation and product design. Politics aside, we shouldn't detract from that. But my wife can dry her hair in less than 20 minutes, and it's quiet. Well worth the money!
    - turtlebits 5y ago
      How is it hard to empty? The bottom just flips open. And there are lots of battery options- 3rd party ones aren't expensive.
- smnrchrds 5y ago
  Why Singapore out of all places? It seems a very expensive place to start a manufacturing company.
  - azalemeth 5y ago
    They're mostly not manufactured in Singapore. They're designed in Singapore (formerly the UK), manufactured mostly in Malaysia and the Philipines (where labour is cheaper, [1]) and I presume the shift is entirely for tax reasons – in contrast to the UK it has far lower corporate taxation rates, and relevantly for Dyson himself, no capital gains tax at all [2] unlike the UK, which I presume will dramatically improve his income. The fact that they'll be in / closer to the same timezone as the manufacturing base probably helps as well. [1] https://www.quora.com/Where-and-how-are-Dyson-vacuums-made?share=1 https://www.quora.com/Where-and-how-are-Dyson-vacuums-made?s... [2] https://ebos-sg.com/singapore-is-a-tax-haven/ https://ebos-sg.com/singapore-is-a-tax-haven/
- mytailorisrich 5y ago
  Even before that, as reported in the news in 2011 he stealthily built a swimming pool in the basement of his listed mansion without planning permission. He obviously knew what he was doing and it worked since, although he was later caught, he managed to escape prosecution and was granted retrospective permission... I'm not sure authorities would have been that understanding with everyone.
snickmy 5y ago
This similar to another case where Dyson was arguing that some standard for performance verification are unfair to their product (https://arstechnica.com/science/2016/04/dyson-dryers-hurl-60x-more-viruses-most-at-kid-face-height-than-other-dryers/ https://arstechnica.com/science/2016/04/dyson-dryers-hurl-60... ) They usually use as reference their own test methodology, which is overall a bit pointless. Either make it a standard, or adhere to one.
emn13 5y ago
The court apparently agreed that the standard was flawed - it scrapped the standard! The court simply held the commission did not "manifestly and gravely disregard the limits [...]" to the point where dyson deserves hundreds of millions in compensation. i.e. to the extent that Dyson lost, it's revolving not around the energy efficiency bit itself (it won that part), but rather the claims that it lost hundreds of millions due to these rules and that the rules were so egregious it deserves compensation for that loss.
Arnt 5y ago
IIRC: Dyson said that the tests weren't representative of real use, and that if they used a vacuum cleaner all the way from empty to full, Dyson's would score much better. A court agreed that the tests weren't good and ordered improvement. Dyson then asked for financial compensation. A court said the tests weren't bad enough to warrant any compensation.

robga 5y ago

It’s a dirty industry (snort!) Howling, germ bellowing airblades are a personal dislike of mine. https://www.theguardian.com/society/2019/apr/25/hand-dryers-paper-towels-hygiene-dyson-airblade https://www.theguardian.com/society/2019/apr/25/hand-dryers-...

bastardoperator 5y ago

I never understood the appeal of Dyson products.

agustif 5y ago
Marketing. Good (looking) design. Money for patents and more marketing. I had one at some time in my life, it was OK but not life changing to cost 10x what a normal regular vacuum would cost. It's just like any luxury item mostly flexing and status signaling through purchasing stuff, or so it seems to me
IcyClAyMptHe 5y ago
I understood them back when my parents bought a Dyson bagless vacuum back in the early 2000s (iirc). It was high tech, powerful (I still remember them showing me how much more dust and dog hair it pulled out of the carpet), and advertised no loss of suction. Unfortunately it did lose suction over time, and was eventually replaced by an absolutely ancient Kirby vac (the kind that were sold by door to door salesmen god knows how long ago), which is built like a tank and still works perfectly well today. Probably the sort of thing I'd put in the "buy it for life" category. I still kind of put Dyson in that early 2000s category of products - both for aesthetic and general attitude reasons. It has that energy of "it's the year 2000, so stuff is now HIGH TECH", but often times the older, less flashy stuff is still better.
- roydivision 5y ago
  I’m not a Dyson apologist, but when ours started losing suction cleaning an easily accessible air filter cartridge fixed the problem.
GuB-42 5y ago
They used to make the only bagless vacuum cleaners that worked well, it is not really the case anymore, probably due to patents expiring, but they still the big name brand. And their bladeless fans, while not really better at moving air than regular fans, they are certainly stylish. I personally think that they make overpriced items and are not worth it anymore, but I understand the appeal.