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An Incan nobleman contested Spanish history
- djsbs 5y agoLaw of Burgos 1512 Sublimis Deus 1537 Pastorale Officium 1537 New Laws 1542 Laws of Spain, or of Roman Christendom, declaring that America belongs to Americans (ie natives) and that they are free. Bill of rights not seen by any European colonized peoples elsewhere. Ever wonder why all the brown people seem to live south of Rio Grande, as soon as the language changes to Spanish? Because the Spaniards were, by far, the most benign European imperialists. There were crimes, Potosi cries out to this day, but the fact that an Incan nobleman knew how to write in Spanish and could petition the court of Charles V (?) is a testament to Spain. ¡Viva España!
- bsedlm 5y agosometimes I think that the main difference is that the Spanish didn't have a clear idea of where they'd arrived; they had sailed looking for new trade routes. But then they "struck gold" and they improvised. But the rest of the europeans sailed to conquer, with a very clear picture of what they were doing even before taking to the sea: taking over the "new world".
- sulam 5y agoI regret that I only have but one downvote to give to this re-framing.
- djsbs 5y agoLet me give you another opportunity. While you’re at it, care to expound a little more than “reframing”? Did those laws not exist? Did they not grant rights unheard of in the 16th century? Are there not vastly larger populations of natives south of Rio Grande? Did I not acknowledge that crimes were committed (but were leas in intensity and duration than of other colonizers)? I mean, my comment surely hurts the pride of Anglos (and Dutch) - for all their moaning of conquistadors Northern Europeans were far more brutal than Spain. Theres no contest.
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- dang 5y agoPerpetuating flamewars like this is particularly against the site guidelines. Would you please review them and stick to the rules when posting here? https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- dang 5y ago"Don't feed egregious comments by replying; flag them instead." a.k.a. please don't feed the trolls https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- Darmody 5y agoAnd don't forget that in 1593 Felipe II established a 8 hours work days. Centuries before socialism. [0] Interracial marriage centuries before it was legal in the US. Tens of universities. And even a vaccine. Not a vaccine as we know them today but a vaccine nevertheless. [1] [0] https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Eight-hour_day https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Eight-hour_day [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balmis_Expedition https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balmis_Expedition
- djsbs 5y agoOr forget that liberalism has its roots in Spain centuries before similar ideas are found elsewhere.
- Burnafter290 5y agoThere's an interesting position in "The Dawn of Everything" by Graeber and Wengrow wherein they argue that the isolation that the Americas were allowed gives us a palette of alternative social constructions. The influence of the Greeks, the Alexandrian, the Roman and the cultural modalities of the Mediterranean an no doubt the various other groups of considerable power and most importantly the emergent interplay. Moreover the eventual concretion of hierarchical structure in the most elementary facets of life, lead to the assent of man to such hierarchy, thus pushing forward the ideological model of European states. This, perhaps, leveraged the equalization of man in the eyes of god to be convincing. To put it concisely, Europeans were deluded into the belief that hierarchy was ever-present - something which is heavily discredited historically. Further rationalizations that it must be so for a "developed, complex" society is evidently made spurious as well. The various peoples of the Americas on the other hand, lacking in these diverse influences, and instead developing their own systems often altogether eschewed hierarchy and formalized coercive powers. Men and women in some cultures were very explicitly equal, and chiefs held little in the way of formal power. They were public speakers, and they had to present rational and convincing arguments - the rational tradition. This is a stark contrast to the feudal system and the heavy influence of the Roman Catholic church at the time. DoE suggests that certain figures had considerable influence on later though, providing citations from philosophers such as Montesquieu. Their key argument comes from a highly-referenced individual named Kandiaronk, who is quite probably the basis for Adario in Baron Lahontan's books (evidently very popular), of particular interest: "Finally, Supplement aux Voyages ou Dialogues avec le sauvage Adario lambasts institutional Christianity by means of a dialogue between de Lahontan and a Huron Chief named Adario (The Rat). The author attempts to contrast the injustice of Christianity with the freedom and justice of native people. His idealized view of "natural humanity" as a vehicle for criticizing European civilization was a forceful early expression of the "noble savage" trope associated with the Enlightenment."[1] Evidently, Lahontan's writings were very popular: "All these would be rather trivial concerns had Lahontan’s books not been so successful; but they were to have an enormous impact on European sensibilities. Kandiaronk’s opinions were translated into German, English, Dutch and Italian, and continued in print, in multiple editions, for over a century. Any self-respecting intellectual of the eighteenth century would have been almost certain to have read them." [2] Coming from that point of reference, it wouldn't be surprising that Spain, having decades worth of exclusive exposure, would come out leading "liberal" thought. But is it fair to assert that it was Europeans that initiated it if it is so that they were inspired by the natives of the New World? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis-Armand_de_Lom_d%27Arce_de_Lahontan,_Baron_de_Lahontan#Author https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis-Armand_de_Lom_d%27Arce_d... [2] Dawn of Everything
- notahacker 5y agoThis is some kind of reverse "what did the Romans do for us" satire, right? "But apart from killing 80% of the native population, who definitely weren't slaves because in return for their forced labour they were forcibly converted to Catholicism, what exactly did the Spanish do wrong?" The bills of rights were inspired by the extent of the conquistadors' brutality, were generally ignored and the New Laws lasted three whole years and one dead viceroy before the Spanish settlers forced the King to back down. I'm not sure missionaries teaching one nobleman Spanish so that he could write a petition to be ignored really offsets that.
- djsbs 5y agoThey weren't killed, they died of diseases. As we see today with the pandemic, the respiratory illnesses were unstoppable, so you cant ascribe guilt through some assumed knowledge of proto-germ theory. The first law is from 1512, 20 years after the discover of the Americas. Given transportation at the time it is clear that he vast majority of the troops overthrowing the Inca were recruited by the subjugated native peoples. Kinda what progressives [1] tried to do in Afghanistan. Pray, what noble accomplishment do we have to show in Afghanistan after 20 years? The enslavement of natives was against the law of King. Ignored by criminals, sure, but the law was clear and its violators criminals. Forced conversion to Catholicism from a blood thirst cult that stained their monuments with the blood of innocents. Ya, they were real bad for that. Btw, if you insist on cultural relativism, what were progressives doing in Afghanistan but proselytizing feminism? [1] I used the word progressive, as opposed to Americans, on purpose as the war was a multi nation effort cheered on by people, “right” or “left” who believe we have to impose democracy and liberalism on others. I remember before 9/11 when leftist wanted to liberate Afghani women. I remember in August, when leftists were aghast we left the women behind
- Gabriel_Martin 5y ago"Forced conversion to Catholicism from a blood thirst cult that stained their monuments with the blood of innocents" Not sure you want to bring into focus Catholicism's history as it relates to the blood of innocents..
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- kuhewa 5y ago> Because the Spaniards were, by far, the most benign European imperialists. Laughs in Pizzaro
- dang 5y agoPlease do not take HN threads further into flamewar. "Don't feed egregious comments by replying; flag them instead." a.k.a. please don't feed the trolls https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- bsedlm 5y ago> the most benign European imperialists. "most benign" does not equal "least worse". sure, they didn't violiently decimate the native populations, salmonella took care of that on its own. And instead of violently killing the remaining natives they raped and enslaved them (as compared to just murdered them). That is not benign in any way, shape, or form.
- dang 5y agoPlease do not take HN threads into nationalistic or ideological flamewar. You started a doozy with this one and then poured fuel on the inevitable flames. We ban accounts that do that, so please don't do it again. If you wouldn't mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and taking the intended spirit of the site more to heart, we'd be grateful.
- pvaldes 5y agoCherry-picking is useful to promote agendas, but I would prefer to ask the opinion of a true historian about that. > one of the most important and idiosyncratic texts of Indigenous American literature remained forgotten Hem, nope. I don't buy this BS. In the roman empire tradition, Spanish crown registered absolutely anything of interest. They funded the first global, -global-, scientific studies about American Flora and Fauna. The whole stuff. Just one book in the series would gave us a much better picture of the history than this text. And they spent a lot of money in that huge task, just to publish and share it with the rest of Europe. We have 'English' tomatoes and 'Dutch' potatoes and 'Italian' peppers or avocados because they shared the discoveries. Think about it. Try to culture some Asian spices in Europe instead. There are probably hundreds, (if not thousands) of more relevant texts about the early history of the New World. And unlike the old tale of "boy finds big thing gathering dust in a library" they are available to anybody interested. Spaniards or Portuguese crowns did a lot of things wrong but also a lot of things right. The last week somebody was talking on TV about if is time to repatriate the remains of Hernan Cortés to Spain to protect them from haters, The man was dead for centuries, for Pete's sake!. Lets put it clear, this "miraculous discovering" is just another cancel latinoamerican culture stunt.
- djsbs 5y ago[flagged]
- kuhewa 5y agoI take indigenous American literature to mean authored by an indigenous American. Can you suggest more idiosyncratic and important examples? > this "miraculous discovering" is just another cancel latinoamerican culture stunt. in 1908?
- dang 5y agoPlease do not take HN threads into nationalistic or ideological flamewar. It's not what this site is for, and it destroys what it is for. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- cwp 5y agoIt's such a shame that the coding system used by quipus was lost for so long. I bet a lot of quipus were just thrown away because nobody could read them anymore.
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- 29athrowaway 5y agoThe quipu conventions used by the quipucamayocs, the Incan IRS, are still lost. The Qhapaq Simi language used by the Inca nobility is lost forever too.
- ska 5y agoWasn't this intentional (i.e. systematic destruction of records, and suppression of use) ?
- zardo 5y ago> The Council banned and ordered the burning of all Quipus in 1583 because they were used to record offerings to non-Christian gods and were therefore considered idolatrous objects and an obstacle to religious conversion. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Council_of_Lima https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Council_of_Lima
- vondur 5y agoThe poor natives in Peru were doomed once the Spanish discovered all of the silver present. I believe they basically enslaved the local indigenous population.
- chestertn 5y agohttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_colonial_Spanish_America#Prohibition_of_forced_labor_of_Indigenous_Peoples https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_colonial_Spanish_Am...
- WalterBright 5y agoIronically, all the gold and silver the Spanish extracted and transferred to Spain did the Spanish little good, as it simply resulted in inflation. Like what we do today with fiat money.
- PeterisP 5y agoThe main losers of this were all the European nations which did not get the gold/silver influx, as they also got the same inflation but without the compensating revenue.
- mistrial9 5y ago"did the Spanish little good" ?!? All of South America is now Spanish speaking.. how did that happen ? and their genetics are spread thoroughly.. I dont see 580 million people speaking the Dutch language (who were known as cooperators, traders, culturally respectful in many cases) edit- respeito ao Brasil, lar da vuvuzela barulhenta
- meristem 5y agoCorrection: most of South America. Brazil was a Portuguese colony thanks to the Treaty of Tordesilhas from 1494 and therefore speaks Portuguese, not Spanish. (Brazilian gold ended up in England, helping fuel the industrial revolution)
- WalterBright 5y ago
- datameta 5y agoIf this is what we did to other Homo sapiens, I have no doubts about the majority stakeholder* in the destruction of our related hominin populations.
- hihihihi1234 5y agoWas he the one with all the beef?
- datameta 5y agoThanks for catching my faunatastic typo
- overkalix 5y agoOK, I'll be going a little meta with this comment and thread, so hopefully dang will allow me some leeway. The value of Huamán Poma's chronicle is not just the historical account per se, but the fact that it appeals to the arguments, values and institutions that justified the colonization of his country. Obviously, whatever arguments he presented, even if they had reached the Spanish court, would have been discarded by the political necessities of the moment. Multiple times (e.g. Peace of Utrecht, Congress of Vienna, Berlin Conference) the great powers have used symbolic statements, forgotten treaties, obscure precedents... to legitimize the partition or annexation of a territory; or the independence or promoted status of some other territories perhaps sharing remarkable circumstances to the above-mentioned and now-divided territory. The point is, the legal reasoning comes after the political decision. In this thread we've seen something similar. Multiple users have presented some of the arguments that one usually finds among a very particular political group in Spanish politics. "They were provinces, not colonies", "They were not conquered but liberated", "They died mostly of disease", "Spanish laws protected the new citizens". Those are staples of Spanish nationalism (particularly right-wing), aiming to defend the legitimacy of the decisions of XVIth century monarchs and ultimately to present an attractive national narrative. Out of respect for this site and its rules, I will not engage those users, but... we find ourselves now in a similar situation of that of Huamán: should we contest those interpretations? Will otherwise internet archeologists from the XXXIst century conclude that those interpretations were common and shared among the societies of both Spain and Peru (because "el que calla otorga", i.e. silence gives consent)? From Huamán Poma's history we should conclude that contesting an argument, just "showing up" is in itself the most powerful argument, isn't it?
- photojosh 5y ago> From Huamán Poma's history we should conclude that contesting an argument, just "showing up" is in itself the most powerful argument, isn't it? Absolutely. I long ago realised the futility of random arguments on the internet towards changing people's minds, but I keep going given I enjoy it too much. But for everyone writing a comment, 10 other people are reading along. So I write for the lurkers... perhaps my reasonable and well-referenced comments are the ones they find the most persuasive. And indeed, I've been contacted out of the blue by, eg religious parents who never cared enough to bother thinking about science much themselves and so accepted creationism just as a default, but whose kids have developed an interest and want to know about how one can both be a Christian and accept evolution. (Not as much anymore though, I've moved on to other areas.)
- errcorrectcode 5y agoTangent: Bartholome de las Casas' 1552 work is especially enlightening.