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She should be released. But probably she refused to accept the offered term, likely to admit wrong doing according to the Chinese law. The crux of this type of

She should be released. But probably she refused to accept the offered term, likely to admit wrong doing according to the Chinese law. The crux of this type of incident is that, one who are aligned herself with western style of morality, would find Chinese laws often to be incompatible with those values. Often such conflict were named "authoratarian" "dictative" etc. As a matter of fact, just like a lot of laws were passed in US without much democratic debate, most laws in China have no democratic debate in the process. There is public opinion collection phase, which does not have a open process. And that were seldom publicized for obvious distrust of the common people's judgement. Then this lady probably did herself the ultimate sacrifice in practicing hungry strike, for proclaiming her own righteousness. Unfortunately, this type of self sacrifice was not useful in changing the people's perception and mentality. I always suggest people like her, western alike, to take a constructive approach to alter the CCP's behavior. I.e., one can always start by educating the normal citizens about the western values, one person after another. Explicit and revolutionary conflicts are exciting, and probably can bring changes really quick. Like CCP did before, transformed the largest nation on earth from an old emperism led system to a socializism totalitarian system, in less than a few decades. But that causes a lot of human suffering, probably the worst in human history. So, as I said, I want Ms. Zhang to keep herself healthy and strong. If she was imprisoned wrongly. Let the system know that you want to fight in a way that yielding is not an option, by actually living well.

chii 5y ago
> one can always start by educating the normal citizens about the western values, one person after another. this is where you, if you started practising this, would be moved to a re-education camp. And then you'd change your tune after coming back out.
- thenberlin 5y ago
  Yeah, the whole "she should be more polite about it, and really she brought this on herself for not accepting the terms of a made-up agreement she was not actually offered that's not actually mentioned in the article" thing is pretty absurd/transparent. This woman put her life on the line to do the whole world a service in a time of crisis. Her situation now reflects nothing more than the umbrage her government has taken with information getting out to the rest of the world about what was really happening in Wuhan. Full stop.
  - justicezyx 5y ago
    > she should be more polite about it My motto has always been that I should be polite to any reasonable counterparts. I have dealt with CCP members before, a lot of them high officials. Those are reasonable people. I see no reason to not be polite. But I did not suggest Zhang Zhan to be polite particularly. I suggest her keep her safe and healthy, such that she can educate the mass. You can call this absurd, but your assessment would be more convincing if you can give the evidences. One call Gahdi absurd, and see what he achieved... > She brought this on herself for not accepting the terms of a made-up agreement No, CCP put her in prison according to some law. She did hungry strike out of her own western influenced values. To call this brought her onto her self, it's a misread. I never intended to depict that kind of image. I guess it was my English doing a disservice. > she was not actually offered that's not actually mentioned in the article I mean, this is pretty much the norm in china. Political issues are always solved with some back channel. Zhang Zhan would refuse to accept such term. And she obviously decide to show her anger by hungry strike. That's separate from the fact that the government can jail her on the ground of some dubious evidences and some previously enacted laws. All in all, that's not to say one can blame herself for such suffering. That's not what I said, and not what I believe. Well, it probably was my English doing me a disservice here again. > This woman put her life on the line to do the whole world a service in a time of crisis Not sure if you have watched her video. Her video is about people and business suffering during the lockdown. Just like a lot of businesses are closed here in US, some random guy is going to post video about it. And showing great emotions about that. Viewers are moved and calling the lockdown inhuman violating human rights etc. Look, one even refuse the vaccine... Is that a service to the world. Sure. Is it extraordinary? I don't see that. I mean, it's a pandemic. Lockdown or not, no one knows how bad it would have been. And human history has no previous example of a large country like China can successfully extinguish a more than usual coronacirus before wide spreading. She of course should not be jailed for posting videos. But to say she is some kind of Nobel character who did great benefit, is just plainly baseless. > Her situation now reflects nothing more than the umbrage her government has taken with information getting out to the rest of the world about what was really happening in Wuhan You can find a lot of vlog type video on what's happened during lockdown. Nothing too terrible. Just like what we experienced last March or so... You are writing a lot of haunting words without much evidences. Don't fall for the MSM propaganda... BBC's deliberate video editing has been ridiculed on YouTube constantly. One example: BBC PSed trees to grey in order to show a gloomy scene out of nowhere... https://youtu.be/eS8EceIa1MQ https://youtu.be/eS8EceIa1MQ
- justicezyx 5y ago
  I am not sure how could you get such idea that "educating people about western values" would put one into rededication camp? I dare to say, that's from main stream media reporting? I have wechat group where people living in mainland and abroad discussing political economic topics. We exchange information, about the most sensitive topics. Peng Shuai, covid, US politics, Xi's lifetime term, etc. We are very open, of course we do use jargons to feel safer. No one is remotely close to be harassed by rededication camp recruiters... My friends are all very open about Western ideas. They just don't care about voting and other western values. As I said, such value system are built from very young, it takes time. They of course admire US environment where people can speak a lot of things without risks. And I absolutely sense that they prefer the society moving into that direction. Given 1-2 generations, I see no reason why not CCP's core members will move into a mentality that open public discussion of most sensitive issues are OK, because at the time, the core members when they grow up, already accepted such values. Let me tell you a story. Before 1970s, people in China value the communism high vision, they absolutely have much less interests in the material enjoyment; now they can always openly pursue such pleasure without any danger. That's the change that have always been happening, and will continue to happen.
- justicezyx 5y ago
  My comment https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29481910 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29481910 Probably should be posted here instead. I am startled by the fact that people do believe there is large scale forced rededication camp anywhere in China. Look at US spy satellite's capabilities https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2021/08/03/commercial-satellites-revealed-chinas-missile-program-not-us-intelligence/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2021/08/03/commercia... Of there is such camp, where is the satellite image? Did you see any issued by US information service? All existing images are from random NGO or news outlets who have all the incentive to ounce on evidence without much verification. Use your brain to analyze the situation. And see the propaganda and the manufactured consensus...
  - chii 5y ago
    > large scale forced rededication camp anywhere in China. who said anything about large scale? There's no need, as the majority are sheep and follows obediently (as their lives are comfortable enough to not want it endangered "fighting the good fight"). The few that would lead are pruned early. Even very rich individuals, who, if they were in the west, would wield high amount of power and influence, are easily disappeared - ala, jack ma.
    - justicezyx 5y ago
      > are easily disappeared - ala, jack ma. Jack Ma disappeared from public media. It's same here, if you make non political correct comments in public, you will be shuned like plague. One such example is Mr. Trump. Don't paint a picture that China is unique worse than another country. It's all the essence in different disguise. And stop associating certain behavior and incident with China as a whole. Don't China this China that. Don't say China backed this and that, there are organization behind those. Find them, understand them, and see their motivation firstly from a personal perspective and then from the national ones. Associating an entire nation to each and every bad things is unfair, irlogical, and dangerous.

chii 5y ago

> one can always start by educating the normal citizens about the western values, one person after another. this is where you, if you started practising this, would be moved to a re-education camp. And then you'd change your tune after coming back out.

thenberlin 5y ago
Yeah, the whole "she should be more polite about it, and really she brought this on herself for not accepting the terms of a made-up agreement she was not actually offered that's not actually mentioned in the article" thing is pretty absurd/transparent. This woman put her life on the line to do the whole world a service in a time of crisis. Her situation now reflects nothing more than the umbrage her government has taken with information getting out to the rest of the world about what was really happening in Wuhan. Full stop.
- justicezyx 5y ago
  > she should be more polite about it My motto has always been that I should be polite to any reasonable counterparts. I have dealt with CCP members before, a lot of them high officials. Those are reasonable people. I see no reason to not be polite. But I did not suggest Zhang Zhan to be polite particularly. I suggest her keep her safe and healthy, such that she can educate the mass. You can call this absurd, but your assessment would be more convincing if you can give the evidences. One call Gahdi absurd, and see what he achieved... > She brought this on herself for not accepting the terms of a made-up agreement No, CCP put her in prison according to some law. She did hungry strike out of her own western influenced values. To call this brought her onto her self, it's a misread. I never intended to depict that kind of image. I guess it was my English doing a disservice. > she was not actually offered that's not actually mentioned in the article I mean, this is pretty much the norm in china. Political issues are always solved with some back channel. Zhang Zhan would refuse to accept such term. And she obviously decide to show her anger by hungry strike. That's separate from the fact that the government can jail her on the ground of some dubious evidences and some previously enacted laws. All in all, that's not to say one can blame herself for such suffering. That's not what I said, and not what I believe. Well, it probably was my English doing me a disservice here again. > This woman put her life on the line to do the whole world a service in a time of crisis Not sure if you have watched her video. Her video is about people and business suffering during the lockdown. Just like a lot of businesses are closed here in US, some random guy is going to post video about it. And showing great emotions about that. Viewers are moved and calling the lockdown inhuman violating human rights etc. Look, one even refuse the vaccine... Is that a service to the world. Sure. Is it extraordinary? I don't see that. I mean, it's a pandemic. Lockdown or not, no one knows how bad it would have been. And human history has no previous example of a large country like China can successfully extinguish a more than usual coronacirus before wide spreading. She of course should not be jailed for posting videos. But to say she is some kind of Nobel character who did great benefit, is just plainly baseless. > Her situation now reflects nothing more than the umbrage her government has taken with information getting out to the rest of the world about what was really happening in Wuhan You can find a lot of vlog type video on what's happened during lockdown. Nothing too terrible. Just like what we experienced last March or so... You are writing a lot of haunting words without much evidences. Don't fall for the MSM propaganda... BBC's deliberate video editing has been ridiculed on YouTube constantly. One example: BBC PSed trees to grey in order to show a gloomy scene out of nowhere... https://youtu.be/eS8EceIa1MQ https://youtu.be/eS8EceIa1MQ
justicezyx 5y ago
I am not sure how could you get such idea that "educating people about western values" would put one into rededication camp? I dare to say, that's from main stream media reporting? I have wechat group where people living in mainland and abroad discussing political economic topics. We exchange information, about the most sensitive topics. Peng Shuai, covid, US politics, Xi's lifetime term, etc. We are very open, of course we do use jargons to feel safer. No one is remotely close to be harassed by rededication camp recruiters... My friends are all very open about Western ideas. They just don't care about voting and other western values. As I said, such value system are built from very young, it takes time. They of course admire US environment where people can speak a lot of things without risks. And I absolutely sense that they prefer the society moving into that direction. Given 1-2 generations, I see no reason why not CCP's core members will move into a mentality that open public discussion of most sensitive issues are OK, because at the time, the core members when they grow up, already accepted such values. Let me tell you a story. Before 1970s, people in China value the communism high vision, they absolutely have much less interests in the material enjoyment; now they can always openly pursue such pleasure without any danger. That's the change that have always been happening, and will continue to happen.
justicezyx 5y ago
My comment https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29481910 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29481910 Probably should be posted here instead. I am startled by the fact that people do believe there is large scale forced rededication camp anywhere in China. Look at US spy satellite's capabilities https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2021/08/03/commercial-satellites-revealed-chinas-missile-program-not-us-intelligence/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2021/08/03/commercia... Of there is such camp, where is the satellite image? Did you see any issued by US information service? All existing images are from random NGO or news outlets who have all the incentive to ounce on evidence without much verification. Use your brain to analyze the situation. And see the propaganda and the manufactured consensus...
- chii 5y ago
  > large scale forced rededication camp anywhere in China. who said anything about large scale? There's no need, as the majority are sheep and follows obediently (as their lives are comfortable enough to not want it endangered "fighting the good fight"). The few that would lead are pruned early. Even very rich individuals, who, if they were in the west, would wield high amount of power and influence, are easily disappeared - ala, jack ma.
  - justicezyx 5y ago
    > are easily disappeared - ala, jack ma. Jack Ma disappeared from public media. It's same here, if you make non political correct comments in public, you will be shuned like plague. One such example is Mr. Trump. Don't paint a picture that China is unique worse than another country. It's all the essence in different disguise. And stop associating certain behavior and incident with China as a whole. Don't China this China that. Don't say China backed this and that, there are organization behind those. Find them, understand them, and see their motivation firstly from a personal perspective and then from the national ones. Associating an entire nation to each and every bad things is unfair, irlogical, and dangerous.