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Yale’s continuing retreat from academic freedom

46 points by hncurious 5y ago

peterkos 5y ago
This article was really hard to read. I generally hate sources that are dripping with opinion that I need to get five or six paragraphs in to bypass the “of COURSE they did X, like we covered last Thursday”. Also obligatory academic freedom -> actually free speech argument in that article that leads to the common misconception of the 1st amendment applying to literally everything “for curiosity’s sake”.
- raxxorrax 5y ago
  You don't think Yale does this for PR and that using the term trap house should include consequences like that? Should the student be reprimanded? You are right, this isn't a first amendment issue, but these are straight questions, aren't they? Do you think that is an adequate rejection and it should not question Yales integrity? I believe it pretty much does question it
- floor2 5y ago
  I don't think that "common misconception" actually exists at all, that's just a rhetorical defense used by people who are trying to stifle free speech in practice. Many people want free speech, as a concept, ideal and aspect of living a safe and fulfilling life. When they are being deprived of that right, if they are in the USA, the people depriving them are quick to point out that the first amendment doesn't protect them... but that's completely irrelevant. As an example, imagine the constitution had a right which said "The federal government will not murder you". Then today, some people are murdering everyone they dislike, and when some people point out "we're afraid of getting murdered and want to live in a society where there isn't murder" and immediately internet commentary is full of people responding "Actually, you only have a right to not be murdered by the federal government, you're confused about how your murder rights work". It's not that the oppressed are confused about what's written in the Bill of Rights, it's that they care about the underlying ideal in a broad and practical way.
techdragon 5y ago
I have to admit, looking in at the situation in the USA from my own deeply, historically complicated position in Australia… it seems like “freedom of speech” the concept and “freedom of speech” the legal doctrine are frequently confused, however in this case Yale definitely seems to be failing to uphold its promise of “freedom of speech” the concept. Not necessarily in its actions, but in its failure to educate students enough they can look beyond their own filter bubble, think critically about if they have actually been oppressed in some way, and react with proportionate response to the events they have been aggrieved by. The students involved in that Ohio thing seem detached from reality. Also… I feel sorry for the quoted Asian student who was afraid to ask their questions. When members of minorities are afraid to ask about the wider experience of their own community, you’re out of bounds.
- _v7gu 5y ago
  Asians' and Hispanics' minority status has long since been revoked by the very same people who push against "racism". It's insane really.
cafard 5y ago
"Through its graduates, Yale exerts an outsized influence on the daily lives of most Americans — for example, Yale educated three of the last six U.S. presidents, and eight sitting Supreme Court Justices attended either Harvard or Yale at some point." Three of six presidents: Bush, Bush, and (law school only) and Clinton. None of the three seems or seemed much afflicted by wokeness. Of the eight sitting Supreme Court justices indicated, five are conservative to deeply conservative. I would say that all graduated from these colleges or law schools when the tone was more or less liberal. In G.H.W. Bush's day maybe it was less, but even then William F. Buckley used Yale as bad example in Up From Liberalism.
- gruez 5y ago
  >Three of six presidents: Bush, Bush, and (law school only) and Clinton. None of the three seems or seemed much afflicted by wokeness. Maybe because they graduated Yale decades ago and the culture wars wasn't a thing yet?
  - cafard 5y ago
    The vocabulary has changed somewhat, but the culture wars have been going on for a long time.

46 points by hncurious 5y ago

This article was really hard to read. I generally hate sources that are dripping with opinion that I need to get five or six paragraphs in to bypass the “of COURSE they did X, like we covered last Thursday”. Also obligatory academic freedom -> actually free speech argument in that article that leads to the common misconception of the 1st amendment applying to literally everything “for curiosity’s sake”.

raxxorrax 5y ago
You don't think Yale does this for PR and that using the term trap house should include consequences like that? Should the student be reprimanded? You are right, this isn't a first amendment issue, but these are straight questions, aren't they? Do you think that is an adequate rejection and it should not question Yales integrity? I believe it pretty much does question it
floor2 5y ago
I don't think that "common misconception" actually exists at all, that's just a rhetorical defense used by people who are trying to stifle free speech in practice. Many people want free speech, as a concept, ideal and aspect of living a safe and fulfilling life. When they are being deprived of that right, if they are in the USA, the people depriving them are quick to point out that the first amendment doesn't protect them... but that's completely irrelevant. As an example, imagine the constitution had a right which said "The federal government will not murder you". Then today, some people are murdering everyone they dislike, and when some people point out "we're afraid of getting murdered and want to live in a society where there isn't murder" and immediately internet commentary is full of people responding "Actually, you only have a right to not be murdered by the federal government, you're confused about how your murder rights work". It's not that the oppressed are confused about what's written in the Bill of Rights, it's that they care about the underlying ideal in a broad and practical way.

techdragon 5y ago

I have to admit, looking in at the situation in the USA from my own deeply, historically complicated position in Australia… it seems like “freedom of speech” the concept and “freedom of speech” the legal doctrine are frequently confused, however in this case Yale definitely seems to be failing to uphold its promise of “freedom of speech” the concept. Not necessarily in its actions, but in its failure to educate students enough they can look beyond their own filter bubble, think critically about if they have actually been oppressed in some way, and react with proportionate response to the events they have been aggrieved by. The students involved in that Ohio thing seem detached from reality. Also… I feel sorry for the quoted Asian student who was afraid to ask their questions. When members of minorities are afraid to ask about the wider experience of their own community, you’re out of bounds.

_v7gu 5y ago
Asians' and Hispanics' minority status has long since been revoked by the very same people who push against "racism". It's insane really.

cafard 5y ago

"Through its graduates, Yale exerts an outsized influence on the daily lives of most Americans — for example, Yale educated three of the last six U.S. presidents, and eight sitting Supreme Court Justices attended either Harvard or Yale at some point." Three of six presidents: Bush, Bush, and (law school only) and Clinton. None of the three seems or seemed much afflicted by wokeness. Of the eight sitting Supreme Court justices indicated, five are conservative to deeply conservative. I would say that all graduated from these colleges or law schools when the tone was more or less liberal. In G.H.W. Bush's day maybe it was less, but even then William F. Buckley used Yale as bad example in Up From Liberalism.

gruez 5y ago
>Three of six presidents: Bush, Bush, and (law school only) and Clinton. None of the three seems or seemed much afflicted by wokeness. Maybe because they graduated Yale decades ago and the culture wars wasn't a thing yet?
- cafard 5y ago
  The vocabulary has changed somewhat, but the culture wars have been going on for a long time.