9 ms·
>I own several crypto-currencies and there hasn't been a single moment in which I thought of buying something with a crypto-currency. This is entirely personal
by iskander 5y ago
>I own several crypto-currencies and there hasn't been a single moment in which I thought of buying something with a crypto-currency.
This is entirely personal and subjective, but I prefer the user experience of Aave and Yearn to traditional banking with e.g. Chase. I also would way rather make large purchases with crypto (e.g. down payment on a house) compared with wiring money.
- zepto 5y agoWhy is ‘wiring’ so bad from your point of view?
- kwertyoowiyop 5y agoIndeed. I’ll gladly pay $20 to have a professional human in the loop when I transfer the down payment on a house.
- arcticbull 5y agoWires are often free. My bank (HSBC) charges me nothing for domestic wires, my brokerage (IBKR) charges me nothing for domestic wires, Schwab charges nothing for domestic wires, neither does Fidelity, USAA or Ally - even FTX charges nothing for domestic wires - even though moving USDC-ETH out of FTX and into your wallet costs $25.
- bryik 5y ago> Wires are often free. Do you have a citation for this? The articles I found online suggest fees are almost universal, with only a single bank (Fidelity) offering true $0 wire transfer fees to all customers [0]. 0 - https://www.nerdwallet.com/article/banking/wire-transfers-what-banks-charge https://www.nerdwallet.com/article/banking/wire-transfers-wh...
- arcticbull 5y agoHere's references, although it looks like Ally and USAA have started charging fees since I looked. HSBC offer free wires for Premier customers. [1] IBKR offers the first domestic wire per month free, subsequent $10. [2] Schwab also offers 1 free per month for qualified customers. [3] Fidelity offers free wires. [4] FTX offers free wires ("We are not currently charging for wire deposits or withdrawals.") [5] Chase Premier Plus and Sapphire checking do not charge wire fees. [6] TD Bank offers 1 free wire transfer per statement cycle. [7] Citigold accounts offer free wires. [8] CIT Bank depending on balance. [9] They're not always free, to be sure - most of the low-end accounts charge for them, but then, those low-end accounts charge for practically everything. That said, TD Bank, Fidelity, Schwab, IBKR all offer at least 1 free wire per month for all customers. If you have any meaningful balances or monthly income, you shouldn't ever pay for wires. Every retail bank offers free wires for qualifying customers to the best of my knowledge. [1] https://www.us.hsbc.com/content/dam/hsbc/us/docs/pdf/deposit-terms-and-charges/hsbc_premier_tcs.pdf https://www.us.hsbc.com/content/dam/hsbc/us/docs/pdf/deposit... p.3 [2] https://www.interactivebrokers.com/en/index.php?f=14718 https://www.interactivebrokers.com/en/index.php?f=14718 [3] https://www.schwab.com/legal/schwab-pricing-guide-for-individual-investors https://www.schwab.com/legal/schwab-pricing-guide-for-indivi... [4] https://www.fidelity.com/customer-service/choose-eft-or-bank-wire https://www.fidelity.com/customer-service/choose-eft-or-bank... [5] https://help.ftx.us/hc/en-us/articles/360043579273-Fees https://help.ftx.us/hc/en-us/articles/360043579273-Fees [6] https://www.chase.com/content/dam/chase-ux/documents/personal/checking/ABSF-en.pdf https://www.chase.com/content/dam/chase-ux/documents/persona... [7] https://www.feeds.td.com/en/document/oao/pdf/1_fees.pdf https://www.feeds.td.com/en/document/oao/pdf/1_fees.pdf [8] https://online.citi.com/US/JRS/pands/detail.do?ID=WireTransfers https://online.citi.com/US/JRS/pands/detail.do?ID=WireTransf... [9] https://www.cit.com/cit-bank/resources/schedule-of-fees https://www.cit.com/cit-bank/resources/schedule-of-fees
- almostkorean 5y agoI'm not OP but I had to wire money earlier this year when I bought a house. To accomplish this, I had to drive to my nearest bank branch (1 hour drive), talk to a bank teller for 15 minutes while she filled out forms and printed out papers I had to sign, and then they told me the wire would probably arrive in time for the house signing (3 hours later). This was to send ~$15k. Compare this to sending USDC on [smart contract enabled blockchain] which takes a few clicks and minutes at most. For arguments sake I will point out the downsides to using crypto in this case: 1. Most people don't want to manage their own wallet 2. USDC is centralized so there is some amount of risk 3. If you send it to the wrong wallet, RIP to your money FWIW, I was just as scared of sending the wire transfer to the wrong place as I was when I send crypto. And with crypto you can quickly send a small test amount first. You can use something like DAI which is less centralized than USDC if that risk is a concern. Wallet UX will improve over time
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- ericd 5y agoYou might want to switch banks, I wire money a couple times a month, it takes about 5 minutes via their website, it goes out very soon after initiation (if it’s within business hours).
- aardvark179 5y agoThat’s a failing of the US banking system, but not of banking systems everywhere. In the UK you can send up to £250,000 within 15 minutes, and you can generally do this online.
- arcticbull 5y agoAnd one that's actively being remedied by both RTP (already rolled out to many customers) and FedNow in 2023.
- twic 5y agoPeople are probably tired of hearing this, but this is not a problem with wiring, it's a problem with US banks. When i bought my home in the UK six years ago, i phoned my bank, told them how much i wanted to send and to who, and they did it, with the money arriving straight away. If the amount had been less than 20k, i could have done it online rather than over the phone; the back-end payment machinery is the same, but i suppose the bank think there's less chance of a normal customer making a mistake with a large transfer if someone walks them through it. My bank is rather old-fashioned; more modern banks let you make large transfers online or through their app: https://www.starlingbank.com/blog/high-value-payments/ https://www.starlingbank.com/blog/high-value-payments/ That page mentions that "one of our team members may need to double check a few details before the payment can be made" - again, that's nothing to do with the machinery, that's in case you match some pattern looking for fraud or money laundering etc.
- iskander 5y agoI'm in the US and it's a very messy and archaic system that involves paperwork, multiple human intermediaries and days to clear.
- mplewis 5y agoI wouldn't. The Bitcoin might not cover the down payment when it arrives ten minutes later.
- PretzelPirate 5y agoThe person you replied to said “crypto” not “Bitcoin”. They can convert their coins to an algorithmic stablecoin and make the payment in a single transaction with no price change.
- 2muchcoffeeman 5y agoSo is Bitcoin no longer being pushed as a currency? Is that “official”?
- throw_nbvc1234 5y agoWho are you looking to "officially" decide that? Best you can probably do is look at what hard forks have occurred (such as bitcoin vs bitcash in this case) to see community splits.
- 2muchcoffeeman 5y agoI don’t know, that’s why I asked. I’m not sure why a legitimate question is being downvoted. I don’t participate in the community. So I’m not sure if the project maintainers have different visions than the investors or whatever.
- gfodor 5y agoFor many years now Bitcoin has been generally viewed by a large consensus to be a low throughput store of value, akin to digital gold. Many disagree with this ofc but it is a pretty mainstream view.
- Spivak 5y agoI mean there’s very little you’ll find as an official spokesperson for Bitcoin but yeah, the dream of on-chain transactions being used for anything other than a funny speculative asset is pretty much gone. It’s actually kinda crazy in a “voting yourself money” kinda way. Because as long as people believe that BTC should always increase in value then in the long run the returns should gravitate toward something like the weighted average worldwide inflation rate. The downside of course is that unlike normal investments they don’t spur the real life economic growth necessary to sustain that inflation.
- Daishiman 5y agoI have no idea who would accept crypto as payment given the gigantic price swings.
- reginold 5y agoOpenSea is an online market for digital goods. A majority of the prices are denominated in cryptocurrencies (ie an item is priced at 1 ETH). As measured in USD, OpenSea did 8% of Amazon's volume in a month.
- dmitriid 5y agoHad anyone tried to convert those fictional tokens to actual usable money, you'd very quickly find out that the actual volume is about 0%.
- Bayart 5y agoOff-ramping is a non-issue. It's like saying the stock market is worthless because its value is predicated upon keeping capital tied into it. Really, you can extend the same reasoning to any market. It's fine being a nihilist, but not very realistic.
- dmitriid 5y ago> Off-ramping is a non-issue. It is. The moment any of those fictional tokens are used for anything other than meaningless exchanges with other fictional tokens, they are worthless. For now they are only perpetuating their perceived self-worth. > It's like saying the stock market is worthless Stock market is almost entirely worthless. It's the same speculation not rooted in objective reality.
- reginold 5y agoah, nevermind. I had written a thoughtful reply to one of your other posts but it's clear the gap between us is bigger than can be solved in this medium.
- brandonmenc 5y ago> I also would way rather make large purchases with crypto (e.g. down payment on a house) For a purchase that large, I would rather make it in person. With a check. Which is way more secure than crypto or a wire transfer.
- showerst 5y agoNot trying to be facetious — who lets you make a down payment with a check? I’ve worked with title companies (though only in 2 US states) and never seen a closing that wasn’t wire based.
- worik 5y agoMe. I have
- shagie 5y agoAll the transactions for my previous house (buying and selling) were done by passing pieces of paper between persons. Bad checks have other ways of being dealt with through legal means. There's no reason to doubt the check held (and handed over) isn't good.
- breischl 5y agoWith a _personal check_? Nobody I'm aware of, having done a good 10+ transactions myself. But everybody is happy with a _cashier's check_. Admittedly you have to go physically get those, which kinda sucks. Or wire the money to the title company instead, which I personally prefer over carrying around a piece of paper worth $75k (or whatever).
- diveanon 5y agoI haven’t even seen a check in decades. It’s incredible to me that you think a piece of paper and human contact is secure.
- zepto 5y agoIt’s incredible that you think it isn’t.
- canjobear 5y agoHave you actually sent large amounts of money through crypto? My experience is that it is incredibly nerve wracking.
- diveanon 5y agoDaily, it’s literally the easiest way to send large amounts of money in existence.
- zepto 5y agoUnless there is a typo, in which case it’s the easiest way to lose large amounts of money in existence.
- xur17 5y agoEchoing GP, I also do not find sending crypto to be all that nerve wracking. I frankly find sending a wire to be a lot more stressful (since I understand it a lot less well).
- zepto 5y agoUnlike with crypto where the money is always lost forever, mistakes with wires can usually be corrected. If you don’t understand Wires then you may be unaware of this.
- xur17 5y agoMy understanding was that wires were quite difficult to reverse, and it's ACH transfers that can be reversed. Regardless, the reversibility aspect has both positives and negatives. It does allow you to reverse transactions, but with the added complexity of the transaction not really settling until after that reversibility period passes. If I receive a crypto transfer (ex: a stablecoin), I can know that the money is actually mine within a few minutes, and can't be taken back. There are major benefits to that.
- diveanon 5y agoI agree. Recently purchased a home with a loan from aave polygon and it was pretty painless.
- hirsin 5y agoIs your loan delimited in dollars or non-stable crypto?
- diveanon 5y agoDollars via aave
- ElKrist 5y agoDo you mind sharing the details like amount of crypto(s) / USD, interest rates, repayment terms etc. You could scale all money numbers (not durations please) by a factor if you prefer. I'm interested to see a real-life example
- diveanon 5y agoIt was on Aave polygon. There are no repayment terms per say, just interest charged on the loaned amount. Aave has variable interest on stables that varies between 7-4% and they offer an incentive bonus of about 3% MATIC, making the effective rate 1-4%. My loan to value rate is around 35%, which gives me a very healthy liquidation buffer in case the market gets even more volatile. My collateral is mostly BTC and ETH, with smaller holding of MATIC and AVAX. It’s a really nice system, I get to keep my crypto holdings and extract real world value. Paying 1% interest on a loan backed by assets that are appreciating 100% a year feels really good. As an additional safety precaution I wrote a smart contract to liquidate some of my other positions if I am ever at risk of being liquidated by Aave to avoid the liquidation penalty.
- iskander 5y agoClarification for confused outsiders: crypto loans are over-collaterized using crypto assets. In case of non-payment, Aave won't come try to collect your house, instead they'll just keep some other crypto that you put up as collateral.
- arcticbull 5y ago> I also would way rather make large purchases with crypto (e.g. down payment on a house) compared with wiring money. Why would you ever sell an appreciating asset when you can borrow USD against it and wire it free of charge?
- ozim 5y agoThat is maybe some US centric view. Wiring even large amount of money in EU online banking was definitely easier than anything I have seen in crypto world.