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It's odd to me that such a significant source of fatalities is being addressed in a very unambitious way. Left turns are clearly difficult maneuvers in many par

It's odd to me that such a significant source of fatalities is being addressed in a very unambitious way. Left turns are clearly difficult maneuvers in many parts of SF. Why not turn them into protected left turns? This "just blame the drivers" attitude is really odd. Their response is to tell drivers that they need to take more care and then enforce the care with an obstacle course. Why not do something harder that would be more effective? Protected lefts. Separating walk signals from green lights. Tickets to penalize poor driving. Tickets to penalize anyone walking out of turn. Tickets for anything that makes the left turn more complicated so drivers can focus on the job.

pm90 5y ago
The obvious answer is that it’s easier to blame drivers than enact meaningful change, which requires time and effort. You’re absolutely right though, this is a systemic problem fand needs a systems-based approach to solving it. Speed limits, limiting hours for motorized traffic… there are many ways in which this problem can be alleviated.
aqme28 5y ago
You got me a bit confused by this. You say we shouldn't "just blame the drivers," but then advocate for increased ticketing. That's a contradiction.
- pm90 5y ago
  Just blame the drivers is shorthand for asking drivers to do better, without any other changes. Rules and laws to penalize drivers are a more effective strategy since people respond better when there are real costs associated with driving poorly (or so I hope; it seems logical but maybe it doesn’t, maybe the laws will be selectively enforced, not sure).
  - rkk3 5y ago
    It's a systemic issue drivers are one stakeholder and many are responsible. Vehicle designers & manufactures, Urban Planners etc. > people respond better when there are real costs associated with driving poorly The real cost is that driving kills 40,000 people a year in the US.
    - pm90 5y ago
      The mortality rate is an externality to most drivers. Financial penalties or better designs have a more direct effect. Similar to how coal power plants kill thousands due to air pollution but don’t really care until they’re penalized financially or made to design systems to reduce emissions.
      - aqme28 5y ago
        People don't react to incentives the same way that corporations do.
        pm90 5y ago
        Congratulations for adding absolutely nothing to the conversation.
      - rkk3 5y ago
        Rather than unintentionally causing a car accident, let's say it was an engineer bringing down production. You are saying Engineers need more negative incentives; they should loose there job for accidentally bringing down production. Bringing down production is obviously because they were personally negligent. This is blaming the engineer, when it is a failure of the system they are operating in. > The mortality rate is an externality to most drivers. Not sure what point you're trying to make here. If I killed someone else with my car, even If I don't die, there are real Physical, Emotional and Financial costs.
        pm90 5y ago
        This is a pretty silly comparison. If an engineer for a medical device fucked up resulting in the death of people, they would absolutely be fired and face legal consequences. Which is why there are very strict regulations around these things (including fines and potential criminal charges).
        rkk3 5y ago
  - aqme28 5y ago
    I'm a little skeptical that people's driving behavior changes a lot when you increase the penalty.
    - Dah00n 5y ago
      It has been proven in lots of European countries with the ticket system (X times you do something deemed bad enough inside Y years you have to get another expensive drivers license). I'd bet that you could likely pick any EU country and see the difference before and after the system got implemented. Of course a lot of people in the US sees driving a car as a right, not a privilege. Without the risk of loosing your license and it being at least semi expensive and hard to get any system is pretty useless.
wonnage 5y ago
Protected lefts require a dedicated turn lane, and many of the intersections where this is a problem simply don't have room for them. Removing parking spaces to make room is unfortunately a fraught process that can take years. So you wind up with training that nobody's going to take
aeternum 5y ago
Another option is to make left turns illegal on more streets and make right turns easier.
mint2 5y ago
Protected left turns don’t work well without insanely wide roads. There is not room for protected left turn lanes in most of sf, and too much traffic to do one direction at a time signals.
- pavon 5y ago
  I've not driven in San Francisco. Are cars allowed to sit and block an entire lane until they can turn left? That is how things worked in the rural town I grew up in, but I can't imagine it working in a city. All the streets in the city I live in now which are too narrow for a turn lane are either one-way (thus have no need for a protected left) or they prohibit left turns.
  - nharada 5y ago
    Many streets have "no left turn" signs that apply during busy hours to prevent this (but of course those are often ignored anyway). In practice the thing that determines if you can turn left and block traffic is how high your tolerance to honking behind you is.
wolverine876 5y ago
> This "just blame the drivers" attitude Where do you see blame? I just see people presenting ways reduce serious harm to others, something I think most drivers would appreciate. As a driver, I'm glad to read it.

pm90 5y ago

The obvious answer is that it’s easier to blame drivers than enact meaningful change, which requires time and effort. You’re absolutely right though, this is a systemic problem fand needs a systems-based approach to solving it. Speed limits, limiting hours for motorized traffic… there are many ways in which this problem can be alleviated.

aqme28 5y ago

You got me a bit confused by this. You say we shouldn't "just blame the drivers," but then advocate for increased ticketing. That's a contradiction.

pm90 5y ago
Just blame the drivers is shorthand for asking drivers to do better, without any other changes. Rules and laws to penalize drivers are a more effective strategy since people respond better when there are real costs associated with driving poorly (or so I hope; it seems logical but maybe it doesn’t, maybe the laws will be selectively enforced, not sure).
- rkk3 5y ago
  It's a systemic issue drivers are one stakeholder and many are responsible. Vehicle designers & manufactures, Urban Planners etc. > people respond better when there are real costs associated with driving poorly The real cost is that driving kills 40,000 people a year in the US.
  - pm90 5y ago
    The mortality rate is an externality to most drivers. Financial penalties or better designs have a more direct effect. Similar to how coal power plants kill thousands due to air pollution but don’t really care until they’re penalized financially or made to design systems to reduce emissions.
    - aqme28 5y ago
      People don't react to incentives the same way that corporations do.
      - pm90 5y ago
        Congratulations for adding absolutely nothing to the conversation.
    - rkk3 5y ago
      Rather than unintentionally causing a car accident, let's say it was an engineer bringing down production. You are saying Engineers need more negative incentives; they should loose there job for accidentally bringing down production. Bringing down production is obviously because they were personally negligent. This is blaming the engineer, when it is a failure of the system they are operating in. > The mortality rate is an externality to most drivers. Not sure what point you're trying to make here. If I killed someone else with my car, even If I don't die, there are real Physical, Emotional and Financial costs.
      - pm90 5y ago
        This is a pretty silly comparison. If an engineer for a medical device fucked up resulting in the death of people, they would absolutely be fired and face legal consequences. Which is why there are very strict regulations around these things (including fines and potential criminal charges).
        rkk3 5y ago
- aqme28 5y ago
  I'm a little skeptical that people's driving behavior changes a lot when you increase the penalty.
  - Dah00n 5y ago
    It has been proven in lots of European countries with the ticket system (X times you do something deemed bad enough inside Y years you have to get another expensive drivers license). I'd bet that you could likely pick any EU country and see the difference before and after the system got implemented. Of course a lot of people in the US sees driving a car as a right, not a privilege. Without the risk of loosing your license and it being at least semi expensive and hard to get any system is pretty useless.

wonnage 5y ago

Protected lefts require a dedicated turn lane, and many of the intersections where this is a problem simply don't have room for them. Removing parking spaces to make room is unfortunately a fraught process that can take years. So you wind up with training that nobody's going to take

aeternum 5y ago

Another option is to make left turns illegal on more streets and make right turns easier.

mint2 5y ago

Protected left turns don’t work well without insanely wide roads. There is not room for protected left turn lanes in most of sf, and too much traffic to do one direction at a time signals.

pavon 5y ago
I've not driven in San Francisco. Are cars allowed to sit and block an entire lane until they can turn left? That is how things worked in the rural town I grew up in, but I can't imagine it working in a city. All the streets in the city I live in now which are too narrow for a turn lane are either one-way (thus have no need for a protected left) or they prohibit left turns.
- nharada 5y ago
  Many streets have "no left turn" signs that apply during busy hours to prevent this (but of course those are often ignored anyway). In practice the thing that determines if you can turn left and block traffic is how high your tolerance to honking behind you is.

wolverine876 5y ago

> This "just blame the drivers" attitude Where do you see blame? I just see people presenting ways reduce serious harm to others, something I think most drivers would appreciate. As a driver, I'm glad to read it.