5 ms·

> no donations = no expectations No donations should result in no expectations, but unfortunately all sorts of people will have all sorts of expectations from

> no donations = no expectations No donations should result in no expectations, but unfortunately all sorts of people will have all sorts of expectations from you when you release an open-source project, donations or not.

KMnO4 5y ago
Donations should also result in no expectations. It’s a donation, not a support license.
- irrational 5y ago
  Theoretically the same applies to Kickstarter. Supposedly it is not a pre-order platform, but everyone treats it that way and gets all bent out of shape if the reward never materializes.
  - paxys 5y ago
    Not quite the same. Kickstarter does require projects to commit to delivering whatever they promised to backers at the time of the contribution as long as the project is fully funded. They themselves aren't going to process refunds, but you do have a legal avenue if you really want your money back, which isn't the case for any random donation.
  - robertlagrant 5y ago
    Generally when things are not nearly as well developed as the original Kickstarter text promised.
  - 999900000999 5y ago
    Kickstarter can claim to be whatever it wants, but if I say if you give me $2,000 I'll do my best to delivermagical super shoes... And I end up taking all the money and spending it a 2-month trip to Canada,I've sort of done something wrong. No matter what Kickstarter says, you can definitely be sued if you take someone's money and don't deliver what you promised. I absolutely loved Kickstarter when it came out, but I don't think I've donated any money to any Kickstarter just because it's more stressful to try and keep track of whenever the hell I'm supposed to get my product. Amazon and eBay are full of useless things I can get delivered tomorrow, why go on Kickstarter and wait 3 months or even a year?
    - renewiltord 5y ago
      I think Kickstarter just wasn’t ever for you. It’s for folks like me who have no need to keep track of this stuff. I just want the thing to exist.
      - 999900000999 5y ago
        I backed a few Kickstarters where the creator just ran off with money and quit. Their is a ton of pressure to over promise, take Code Hero. I checked out the free demo and loved it enough to back it. Then the creator promised a bunch of infeasible things, like teaching you how to make an online game. The original goal , show off basic programming, was solid. Right after the campaign ended, the project disappeared. I'm working on my own game now. And while I might let people pay what they want for a demo of it, I'm not going to promise a bunch of stuff I can't realistically do in order to fundraise.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
moss2 5y ago
I think gorhill means "No donations means I can feel justified ignoring any expectations of the project."
snarf21 5y ago
I've done a similar thing with a few past employers after I've moved on. "Hey, can you explain this code to the new person?". In some cases, I'd be glad to do a 1 hour call or whatever. They frequently ask me to submit a bill for my time and I always refuse. I don't want to turn into some kind of staff augmentation and be at their beck and call "because they are paying". Way better to think of it as a gift and I get to decide the rules.
- cheeseomlit 5y ago
  That just sounds like you're being taken for a ride
  - one_off_comment 5y ago
    It's a personal choice. I respect their choice.
    - BEEdwards 5y ago
      Working for free devalues the work of others and give them an excuse to not even offer pay next time.
      - JaimeThompson 5y ago
        There is nothing wrong with being nice to others.
      - one_off_comment 5y ago
        They'll get a rude awakening and realize OP is being nice and that's not standard operating procedure.
  - Levitz 5y ago
    I do a similar thing when a friend asks me a favor that is going to take enough of my time, think the classic "Can you help me build my PC?" or "Something has happened to my computer! Can you fix it?" If I'm helping then I refuse any kind of money. I don't give guarantees or service like a business does, I don't want money like a business does. I do often ask that they try to learn from the experience, I'll gladly explain everything I'm doing. The other option is I refuse, for whatever reason that is. This keeps my choices those of a friend and my responsibilities those of a friend. I like keeping them that way.
bin_bash 5y ago
Possibly, but the maintainer can safely feel justified in ignoring expectations if there wasn't anything attached to them.
bjourne 5y ago
People can have expectations about whoever they like. It's a free choice whether you want to live up to those expectations or not.
jader201 5y ago
I think the sentiment here is really: No donations = no obligations
wolverine876 5y ago
> No donations should result in no expectations Let's not take to a literal extreme the OP's simplified expression. It's a matter of degree, like almost everything in life. Money is not the only source of responsibility. Most responsibilities in life are not a consequence of payment - from one perspective, payment-for-services exists to fill gaps in other responsibilities, to create artificial responsibility. In gorhill's situation, speaking generally from my perspective (and not for gorhill), payment would seem to increase responsibility but it would not be absolute: People shut down for-profit businesses all the time. Users could be paying for gorhill's expenses in creating the existing software, which would imply no future obligation. And lack of payment doesn't eliminate responsibility: If you tell people you are going to do something, and they depend on you, you have some responsibility. Did gorhill promise to maintain it forever? No, but they aren't providing software for use today only; it's not like watching a TikTok video; software assumes longer-term use.
AussieWog93 5y ago
There are absolutely different expectations that come when someone makes a donation. Hell, look at all of the expectations that come with receiving a gift from a relative.
agumonkey 5y ago
We need a tor donate. People pour into a global sink, and the money gets wired to a pool of most useful projects. So nobody can have ill feelings toward on thing in particular. double blind charity

KMnO4 5y ago

Donations should also result in no expectations. It’s a donation, not a support license.

irrational 5y ago
Theoretically the same applies to Kickstarter. Supposedly it is not a pre-order platform, but everyone treats it that way and gets all bent out of shape if the reward never materializes.
- paxys 5y ago
  Not quite the same. Kickstarter does require projects to commit to delivering whatever they promised to backers at the time of the contribution as long as the project is fully funded. They themselves aren't going to process refunds, but you do have a legal avenue if you really want your money back, which isn't the case for any random donation.
- robertlagrant 5y ago
  Generally when things are not nearly as well developed as the original Kickstarter text promised.
- 999900000999 5y ago
  Kickstarter can claim to be whatever it wants, but if I say if you give me $2,000 I'll do my best to delivermagical super shoes... And I end up taking all the money and spending it a 2-month trip to Canada,I've sort of done something wrong. No matter what Kickstarter says, you can definitely be sued if you take someone's money and don't deliver what you promised. I absolutely loved Kickstarter when it came out, but I don't think I've donated any money to any Kickstarter just because it's more stressful to try and keep track of whenever the hell I'm supposed to get my product. Amazon and eBay are full of useless things I can get delivered tomorrow, why go on Kickstarter and wait 3 months or even a year?
  - renewiltord 5y ago
    I think Kickstarter just wasn’t ever for you. It’s for folks like me who have no need to keep track of this stuff. I just want the thing to exist.
    - 999900000999 5y ago
      I backed a few Kickstarters where the creator just ran off with money and quit. Their is a ton of pressure to over promise, take Code Hero. I checked out the free demo and loved it enough to back it. Then the creator promised a bunch of infeasible things, like teaching you how to make an online game. The original goal , show off basic programming, was solid. Right after the campaign ended, the project disappeared. I'm working on my own game now. And while I might let people pay what they want for a demo of it, I'm not going to promise a bunch of stuff I can't realistically do in order to fundraise.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

moss2 5y ago

I think gorhill means "No donations means I can feel justified ignoring any expectations of the project."

snarf21 5y ago

I've done a similar thing with a few past employers after I've moved on. "Hey, can you explain this code to the new person?". In some cases, I'd be glad to do a 1 hour call or whatever. They frequently ask me to submit a bill for my time and I always refuse. I don't want to turn into some kind of staff augmentation and be at their beck and call "because they are paying". Way better to think of it as a gift and I get to decide the rules.

cheeseomlit 5y ago
That just sounds like you're being taken for a ride
- one_off_comment 5y ago
  It's a personal choice. I respect their choice.
  - BEEdwards 5y ago
    Working for free devalues the work of others and give them an excuse to not even offer pay next time.
    - JaimeThompson 5y ago
      There is nothing wrong with being nice to others.
    - one_off_comment 5y ago
      They'll get a rude awakening and realize OP is being nice and that's not standard operating procedure.
- Levitz 5y ago
  I do a similar thing when a friend asks me a favor that is going to take enough of my time, think the classic "Can you help me build my PC?" or "Something has happened to my computer! Can you fix it?" If I'm helping then I refuse any kind of money. I don't give guarantees or service like a business does, I don't want money like a business does. I do often ask that they try to learn from the experience, I'll gladly explain everything I'm doing. The other option is I refuse, for whatever reason that is. This keeps my choices those of a friend and my responsibilities those of a friend. I like keeping them that way.

bin_bash 5y ago

Possibly, but the maintainer can safely feel justified in ignoring expectations if there wasn't anything attached to them.

bjourne 5y ago

People can have expectations about whoever they like. It's a free choice whether you want to live up to those expectations or not.

jader201 5y ago

I think the sentiment here is really: No donations = no obligations

wolverine876 5y ago

> No donations should result in no expectations Let's not take to a literal extreme the OP's simplified expression. It's a matter of degree, like almost everything in life. Money is not the only source of responsibility. Most responsibilities in life are not a consequence of payment - from one perspective, payment-for-services exists to fill gaps in other responsibilities, to create artificial responsibility. In gorhill's situation, speaking generally from my perspective (and not for gorhill), payment would seem to increase responsibility but it would not be absolute: People shut down for-profit businesses all the time. Users could be paying for gorhill's expenses in creating the existing software, which would imply no future obligation. And lack of payment doesn't eliminate responsibility: If you tell people you are going to do something, and they depend on you, you have some responsibility. Did gorhill promise to maintain it forever? No, but they aren't providing software for use today only; it's not like watching a TikTok video; software assumes longer-term use.

AussieWog93 5y ago

There are absolutely different expectations that come when someone makes a donation. Hell, look at all of the expectations that come with receiving a gift from a relative.

agumonkey 5y ago

We need a tor donate. People pour into a global sink, and the money gets wired to a pool of most useful projects. So nobody can have ill feelings toward on thing in particular. double blind charity