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What is a real currency? Is USD real? If so, why? The mining of the USD is oil extraction, especially in war-torn or human rights abusing countries. Why aren't

What is a real currency? Is USD real? If so, why? The mining of the USD is oil extraction, especially in war-torn or human rights abusing countries. Why aren't we talking how the US economy is based on extracting and selling and speculating the very thing burning our planet? Not even counting the numerous wars it created. I don't think the BTC hash function has a hard requirement on using energy from fossil fuels, does it?

LargeWu 5y ago
It doesn't have a hard requirement on fossil fuels, no. But if Bitcoin is using clean energy, that means it's using clean energy that could otherwise be used for things that provide actual utility - lighting homes, running businesses, charging electric vehicles, etc. Fiat currencies are real because we all agree that they're real. You can pay your taxes with them, you can buy a house or your groceries. I don't think Bitcoin, or other crypto, can yet claim they're real because their worth is expressed almost exclusively in terms of fiat currency. Even if some business does accept crypto, it's expressed as a conversion from an underlying price in terms of fiat.
camgunz 5y ago
> Why aren't we talking how the US economy is based on extracting and selling and speculating the very thing burning our planet? Because it's yet more whataboutism? We can debate how we should transition to renewables and what we really need energy for, but I think we agree we need it? > I don't think the BTC hash function has a hard requirement on using energy from fossil fuels, does it? I'd love it if the crypto community kicked out fossil fuel miners. That'll obviously never happen. But again I ask you, what's the point of cryptocurrency other than crime?
- pennaMan 5y ago
  What is the point of fiat money other than greed? And we are talking about currencies and the utility of said currencies. About the governing structures and operating costs of those currencies. Looking at USD, a well accepted traditional currency with the backing of the territorial violence monopoly we so kindly call sovereign nations, is certainly a reasonable argument as we are essentially comparing green apples to red apples. So what does the traditional economy system gives us? War, global unrest, dependency on fossil fuel extraction. Choosing to have a personal war with a system that proposes to do away with the violence monopoly because it requires a nuclear power plant or two of power to operate is an odd position.
  - dmitriid 5y ago
    > So what does the traditional economy system gives us? War, global unrest, dependency on fossil fuel extraction. It also gives you roads, education, safe travel, global commerce, global communication,... All blockchains and crypto coins do are doing is spending several countries worth of energy expenditure on scams. > proposes to do away with the violence monopoly Next time you buy anything physical with crypto and it doesn't arrive, you'll be the first in line to demand monopoly on violence.
  - camgunz 5y ago
    > What is the point of fiat money other than greed? Well I mean, what do you use it for? > territorial violence monopoly we so kindly call sovereign nations Literally every civilization is this. It's the first thing you learn in social contract theory and is super easy to derive from first principles. Basically in order to have a more secure society, individuals band together by giving up the use of violence on each other in order to focus their efforts on protecting themselves and their livelihood. > So what does the traditional economy system gives us? Literally everything we have. Feel free to cherry-pick some of the worst things but, also I mean hey, I'm enjoying Firefox, HN, and my radiator heat thank you traditional economy. > Choosing to have a personal war with a system that proposes to do away with the violence monopoly because it requires a nuclear power plant or two of power to operate is an odd position. Why is it so hard for crypto advocates to come to grips with the current reality of their ecosystem? No one would be upset if crypto all ran on green energy, and if you all really cared about it you'd make it happen. You obviously don't. Which is fine! But you can't have it both ways; you can't belch billions of tons of CO2 into the atmosphere for your projects and then be like, "well, we're fixing it, we promise". I mean, if you really believe that, shut down until it's fixed.
dmitriid 5y ago
> Is USD real? If so, why? Because it has an army, a government, and an economy behind it that can enforce a great many things (both good and bad) on people using it. And extracting oil is not the single (and I'd say not even the single biggest) source that makes USD a reality. Besides, USD is not the only currency. On the other hand, if you buy a physical item with your magical coin and it doesn't arrive, or someone is in a breach of your magical contract, or <a thousand other use cases>, good luck.
preseinger 5y ago
A currency is a unit of value established and controlled by a sovereign state. It's not just whatever fungible thing you use to transfer value. Yes USD is a currency; no BTC is not.

LargeWu 5y ago

It doesn't have a hard requirement on fossil fuels, no. But if Bitcoin is using clean energy, that means it's using clean energy that could otherwise be used for things that provide actual utility - lighting homes, running businesses, charging electric vehicles, etc. Fiat currencies are real because we all agree that they're real. You can pay your taxes with them, you can buy a house or your groceries. I don't think Bitcoin, or other crypto, can yet claim they're real because their worth is expressed almost exclusively in terms of fiat currency. Even if some business does accept crypto, it's expressed as a conversion from an underlying price in terms of fiat.

camgunz 5y ago

> Why aren't we talking how the US economy is based on extracting and selling and speculating the very thing burning our planet? Because it's yet more whataboutism? We can debate how we should transition to renewables and what we really need energy for, but I think we agree we need it? > I don't think the BTC hash function has a hard requirement on using energy from fossil fuels, does it? I'd love it if the crypto community kicked out fossil fuel miners. That'll obviously never happen. But again I ask you, what's the point of cryptocurrency other than crime?

pennaMan 5y ago
What is the point of fiat money other than greed? And we are talking about currencies and the utility of said currencies. About the governing structures and operating costs of those currencies. Looking at USD, a well accepted traditional currency with the backing of the territorial violence monopoly we so kindly call sovereign nations, is certainly a reasonable argument as we are essentially comparing green apples to red apples. So what does the traditional economy system gives us? War, global unrest, dependency on fossil fuel extraction. Choosing to have a personal war with a system that proposes to do away with the violence monopoly because it requires a nuclear power plant or two of power to operate is an odd position.
- dmitriid 5y ago
  > So what does the traditional economy system gives us? War, global unrest, dependency on fossil fuel extraction. It also gives you roads, education, safe travel, global commerce, global communication,... All blockchains and crypto coins do are doing is spending several countries worth of energy expenditure on scams. > proposes to do away with the violence monopoly Next time you buy anything physical with crypto and it doesn't arrive, you'll be the first in line to demand monopoly on violence.
- camgunz 5y ago
  > What is the point of fiat money other than greed? Well I mean, what do you use it for? > territorial violence monopoly we so kindly call sovereign nations Literally every civilization is this. It's the first thing you learn in social contract theory and is super easy to derive from first principles. Basically in order to have a more secure society, individuals band together by giving up the use of violence on each other in order to focus their efforts on protecting themselves and their livelihood. > So what does the traditional economy system gives us? Literally everything we have. Feel free to cherry-pick some of the worst things but, also I mean hey, I'm enjoying Firefox, HN, and my radiator heat thank you traditional economy. > Choosing to have a personal war with a system that proposes to do away with the violence monopoly because it requires a nuclear power plant or two of power to operate is an odd position. Why is it so hard for crypto advocates to come to grips with the current reality of their ecosystem? No one would be upset if crypto all ran on green energy, and if you all really cared about it you'd make it happen. You obviously don't. Which is fine! But you can't have it both ways; you can't belch billions of tons of CO2 into the atmosphere for your projects and then be like, "well, we're fixing it, we promise". I mean, if you really believe that, shut down until it's fixed.

dmitriid 5y ago

> Is USD real? If so, why? Because it has an army, a government, and an economy behind it that can enforce a great many things (both good and bad) on people using it. And extracting oil is not the single (and I'd say not even the single biggest) source that makes USD a reality. Besides, USD is not the only currency. On the other hand, if you buy a physical item with your magical coin and it doesn't arrive, or someone is in a breach of your magical contract, or <a thousand other use cases>, good luck.

preseinger 5y ago

A currency is a unit of value established and controlled by a sovereign state. It's not just whatever fungible thing you use to transfer value. Yes USD is a currency; no BTC is not.