4 ms·

I guess I’m weird but I have really no desire to punish people.

by ugh 15y ago

redthrowaway 15y ago
That's a nice thought in theory, but it leads to antisocial behaviour in practice. Punishment is necessary. The severity of punishment is up to debate, but negative reinforcement works where positive doesn't (and vice versa). Now, as far as desire to see a shit head get punished, that's pure petty schadenfreude and I make neither excuses nor apologies for it. I don't claim to be a paragon of moral virtue. I get warm fuzzies from seeing people get deserved comeuppance. It's such a deeply ingrained part of our cultural psyche (look at every movie Disney ever made), and so universal across cultures, that I suspect it's just an integral part of human nature. We can aspire to loftier moral heights, but at the end of the day a whole lot of us get satisfaction from seeing the bad guy lose.
- ugh 15y ago
  When I say “punishment” I’m talking about everything that’s beyond mere deterrence. I have no problem with deterrence, yet no desire to punish.
  - pbhjpbhj 15y ago
    >I have no problem with deterrence, yet no desire to punish. // Could you explain this, perhaps with a solid example or a crime, it's deterrence that is not punishment. For example if you fine someone for drink driving that is both a deterrent and punishment. I can't readily see how you deter without introducing punishment.
    - ugh 15y ago
      I’m using really a weird definition of punishment. That’s my fault. Maybe I should stop doing that. I’m ok with punishment if we know (or if it is at least plausible) that it’s a deterrence. I’m not ok with punishment for the sake of punishment. I’m also not ok with drastic increases in punishment for little or questionable gains in deterrence. To pick an absurd example: If we were to find out that not imprisoning or otherwise punishing murderers would decrease the murder rate I would be all for stopping punishing murderers. If something is an effective way of preventing crimes – even if it’s not punishment – I’m all for it.
      - pbhjpbhj 15y ago
        >If something is an effective way of preventing crimes – even if it’s not punishment – I’m all for it. // OK I think I got that from your previous comment. What I can't see is if there is actually an instance that matches your preference at all. For example in my country minor criminals might be persuaded to meet the people they've offended against. Some may not define this as punishment but it can be a type of humiliation and so I'd class it as a (very minor) punishment. I'd guess you'd be thinking of something like giving free drugs to addicts that rob people to stop them robbing and at the same time just leave the victims to sort themselves out and pay for the crime (ie no levy, no fine, etc.)?? FWIW this example seems injust to me.
        ugh 15y ago
        Again, I’m opposed to punishment for punishment’s sake and civil law doesn’t really have anything to do with that. Of course you should be entitled to damages if someone steals something from you. Paying damages isn’t really what I would call punishment. (It’s just that drug addicts usually won’t be able to actually pay you anything. But that’s just how it is.) I do not know whether there are crimes that can actually be prevented by doing something besides punishment. I just wanted to make clear that I’m open to the possibility.

I guess I’m weird but I have really no desire to punish people.

by ugh 15y ago

I guess I’m weird but I have really no desire to punish people.

That's a nice thought in theory, but it leads to antisocial behaviour in practice. Punishment is necessary. The severity of punishment is up to debate, but negative reinforcement works where positive doesn't (and vice versa). Now, as far as desire to see a shit head get punished, that's pure petty schadenfreude and I make neither excuses nor apologies for it. I don't claim to be a paragon of moral virtue. I get warm fuzzies from seeing people get deserved comeuppance. It's such a deeply ingrained part of our cultural psyche (look at every movie Disney ever made), and so universal across cultures, that I suspect it's just an integral part of human nature. We can aspire to loftier moral heights, but at the end of the day a whole lot of us get satisfaction from seeing the bad guy lose.

ugh 15y ago
When I say “punishment” I’m talking about everything that’s beyond mere deterrence. I have no problem with deterrence, yet no desire to punish.
- pbhjpbhj 15y ago
  >I have no problem with deterrence, yet no desire to punish. // Could you explain this, perhaps with a solid example or a crime, it's deterrence that is not punishment. For example if you fine someone for drink driving that is both a deterrent and punishment. I can't readily see how you deter without introducing punishment.
  - ugh 15y ago
    I’m using really a weird definition of punishment. That’s my fault. Maybe I should stop doing that. I’m ok with punishment if we know (or if it is at least plausible) that it’s a deterrence. I’m not ok with punishment for the sake of punishment. I’m also not ok with drastic increases in punishment for little or questionable gains in deterrence. To pick an absurd example: If we were to find out that not imprisoning or otherwise punishing murderers would decrease the murder rate I would be all for stopping punishing murderers. If something is an effective way of preventing crimes – even if it’s not punishment – I’m all for it.
    - pbhjpbhj 15y ago
      >If something is an effective way of preventing crimes – even if it’s not punishment – I’m all for it. // OK I think I got that from your previous comment. What I can't see is if there is actually an instance that matches your preference at all. For example in my country minor criminals might be persuaded to meet the people they've offended against. Some may not define this as punishment but it can be a type of humiliation and so I'd class it as a (very minor) punishment. I'd guess you'd be thinking of something like giving free drugs to addicts that rob people to stop them robbing and at the same time just leave the victims to sort themselves out and pay for the crime (ie no levy, no fine, etc.)?? FWIW this example seems injust to me.
      - ugh 15y ago
        Again, I’m opposed to punishment for punishment’s sake and civil law doesn’t really have anything to do with that. Of course you should be entitled to damages if someone steals something from you. Paying damages isn’t really what I would call punishment. (It’s just that drug addicts usually won’t be able to actually pay you anything. But that’s just how it is.) I do not know whether there are crimes that can actually be prevented by doing something besides punishment. I just wanted to make clear that I’m open to the possibility.