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The petrolhead press will never stop criticizing electric cars until their range is 10 times that of a comparable weight of gasoline, and then they will choose

The petrolhead press will never stop criticizing electric cars until their range is 10 times that of a comparable weight of gasoline, and then they will choose some new strawman to battle, like cobalt or grid capacity or whatever. These guys are not interested in a fair conversation. I wish that government electric car subsidies would be retargeted at cheap cars. I want to drive an electric economy car, not a luxury car. Here in Switzerland, we kind of have that: subsidies are in the form of a 99% reduction in road tax, so that every year you get a subsidy, flashy car or boring car. I'd like to see the kind of people who have to flash their cash (ahem, Tesla buyers) pay for moderate income car owner's road taxes.

Scoundreller 5y ago
With opex being so much lower for electric, I’ll believe they pay for themselves when corporate fleets become all electric on new fleet additions (e.g. delivery drivers/taxis). Right now; they seem to be going for hybrids. If they can’t make the economic case for electric, I don’t know how anyone that drives 1/5th or 1-10th as much can.
- robocat 5y ago
  > delivery drivers/taxis I suspect that is an unfair comparison. Electric cars often don't make sense for high duty cycle uses, or for long distance driving around town during the time they are active. Every minute waiting for a charge is a minute the vehicle is slack and wasting the driver's time. Overnight charging works for lower km commuters, depending on specifics of opex and capex.
ekianjo 5y ago
The cheapest car is the one you never change or replace. Subsidizing buying new cars is not environment friendly at all, its just consumerism.
- coddle-hark 5y ago
  My local Hyundai dealer told me that buying a new car every 6 months is the cheapest way to own an EV right now.
  - kortex 5y ago
    Sounds like something someone motivated to sell cars would say. Even with subsidies, that first leg of depreciation is the steepest slope. Like I don't see how that beats just buying and owning it.
    - coddle-hark 5y ago
      Supply is so constrained now (and was even before the chip shortage) that it can take up to a year to get a new car delivered, this changes the depreciation curve a bit.
  - trulyme 5y ago
    Of course their incentives might be a bit different than yours are. ;)
- yellowapple 5y ago
  Today's new cars are tomorrow's used cars. ...that is, provided that said new cars are built with longevity in mind instead of planned obsolescence. Targeting subsidies toward EVs that maximize user-repairability and mandating right-to-repair would hopefully encourage that.
  - tsimionescu 5y ago
    Today's new cars only become tomorrow's new cars if the owners keep buying new cars. The purpose should be to make car manufacture a smaller industry, and have people buy a car once every, say, 20-40 years, using the same car in between.
  - ekianjo 5y ago
    EVs are not made at all to be repaired by their users. Today's new cars become tomorrow's junk.
    - yellowapple 5y ago
      Hence the entire second paragraph of the comment above.
- rincewind 5y ago
  People who say "electric cars are good enough now, the median distance driven is just 20km anyway" act as if that's a good thing. If you use an electric car only for a commute, why not commute by bicycle or by bus? Why buy an electric car at all if you only ever drive short distances? Why not take the train if you are going long distance only four times a year? Why even buy a new car then?
  - Nullabillity 5y ago
    Public transport is never going to provide a comprehensive point-to-point network, and every switch dramatically increases the cost (in terms of time, effort, and finances). The only way it can be remotely viable for commuting is if your city is organized into a hub-and-spoke model where everyone commutes into the same city core. But that gets you very congested stations (great for occasions like COVID!), and is murder for a city's social life (since you're more than doubling the cost of visiting friends). I know, because I live in a city^Hhellscape designed like this... Bikes, you say? Well, my old 20km commute took around an hour by ebike, around twice the time of the car. And that was an unpleasant experience in the best case, that got virtually unviable with weather (rain, leaves, ice, whatever else). And again, unviable for socializing since nobody I'm visiting is going to have an ebike charger (nor is it guaranteed that I'd be staying there long enough for it to work).
    - bluGill 5y ago
      Public transit can be organized much better than that. There need not be one hub in a city for example. Sure it will never cover 100% if all cases well, but it can cover enough to get the majority of the people to not have a car at all. Most of the leaders of transit systems are not interested in good transit though. (The exceptions don't speak good English from what I can tell )
      - Nullabillity 5y ago
        > There need not be one hub in a city for example. That's not a solution, that's just moving to another point on the continuum between the downsides of hub-and-spoke and the downsides of point-to-point. And this kind of hub bifurcation typically only serves to make residential-to-residential journeys even worse, setting up social barriers based on which hubs people have easy access to. > The exceptions don't speak good English from what I can tell Can't really respond to this if you're not interested in citing which "good" example you'd like to see emulated.
clouddrover 5y ago
> The petrolhead press will never stop criticizing electric cars No. The petrolhead press praises today's EVs for what they're strong at (acceleration) and correctly criticizes them for what they're (generally) weak at (price, range, charge time). When EV's come along with strong range like the Mercedes EQS and the Lucid Air they are rightly praised for their range. > and then they will choose some new strawman to battle No. This is just a strawman of your own.

Scoundreller 5y ago

With opex being so much lower for electric, I’ll believe they pay for themselves when corporate fleets become all electric on new fleet additions (e.g. delivery drivers/taxis). Right now; they seem to be going for hybrids. If they can’t make the economic case for electric, I don’t know how anyone that drives 1/5th or 1-10th as much can.

robocat 5y ago
> delivery drivers/taxis I suspect that is an unfair comparison. Electric cars often don't make sense for high duty cycle uses, or for long distance driving around town during the time they are active. Every minute waiting for a charge is a minute the vehicle is slack and wasting the driver's time. Overnight charging works for lower km commuters, depending on specifics of opex and capex.

ekianjo 5y ago

The cheapest car is the one you never change or replace. Subsidizing buying new cars is not environment friendly at all, its just consumerism.

coddle-hark 5y ago
My local Hyundai dealer told me that buying a new car every 6 months is the cheapest way to own an EV right now.
- kortex 5y ago
  Sounds like something someone motivated to sell cars would say. Even with subsidies, that first leg of depreciation is the steepest slope. Like I don't see how that beats just buying and owning it.
  - coddle-hark 5y ago
    Supply is so constrained now (and was even before the chip shortage) that it can take up to a year to get a new car delivered, this changes the depreciation curve a bit.
- trulyme 5y ago
  Of course their incentives might be a bit different than yours are. ;)
yellowapple 5y ago
Today's new cars are tomorrow's used cars. ...that is, provided that said new cars are built with longevity in mind instead of planned obsolescence. Targeting subsidies toward EVs that maximize user-repairability and mandating right-to-repair would hopefully encourage that.
- tsimionescu 5y ago
  Today's new cars only become tomorrow's new cars if the owners keep buying new cars. The purpose should be to make car manufacture a smaller industry, and have people buy a car once every, say, 20-40 years, using the same car in between.
- ekianjo 5y ago
  EVs are not made at all to be repaired by their users. Today's new cars become tomorrow's junk.
  - yellowapple 5y ago
    Hence the entire second paragraph of the comment above.
rincewind 5y ago
People who say "electric cars are good enough now, the median distance driven is just 20km anyway" act as if that's a good thing. If you use an electric car only for a commute, why not commute by bicycle or by bus? Why buy an electric car at all if you only ever drive short distances? Why not take the train if you are going long distance only four times a year? Why even buy a new car then?
- Nullabillity 5y ago
  Public transport is never going to provide a comprehensive point-to-point network, and every switch dramatically increases the cost (in terms of time, effort, and finances). The only way it can be remotely viable for commuting is if your city is organized into a hub-and-spoke model where everyone commutes into the same city core. But that gets you very congested stations (great for occasions like COVID!), and is murder for a city's social life (since you're more than doubling the cost of visiting friends). I know, because I live in a city^Hhellscape designed like this... Bikes, you say? Well, my old 20km commute took around an hour by ebike, around twice the time of the car. And that was an unpleasant experience in the best case, that got virtually unviable with weather (rain, leaves, ice, whatever else). And again, unviable for socializing since nobody I'm visiting is going to have an ebike charger (nor is it guaranteed that I'd be staying there long enough for it to work).
  - bluGill 5y ago
    Public transit can be organized much better than that. There need not be one hub in a city for example. Sure it will never cover 100% if all cases well, but it can cover enough to get the majority of the people to not have a car at all. Most of the leaders of transit systems are not interested in good transit though. (The exceptions don't speak good English from what I can tell )
    - Nullabillity 5y ago
      > There need not be one hub in a city for example. That's not a solution, that's just moving to another point on the continuum between the downsides of hub-and-spoke and the downsides of point-to-point. And this kind of hub bifurcation typically only serves to make residential-to-residential journeys even worse, setting up social barriers based on which hubs people have easy access to. > The exceptions don't speak good English from what I can tell Can't really respond to this if you're not interested in citing which "good" example you'd like to see emulated.

clouddrover 5y ago

> The petrolhead press will never stop criticizing electric cars No. The petrolhead press praises today's EVs for what they're strong at (acceleration) and correctly criticizes them for what they're (generally) weak at (price, range, charge time). When EV's come along with strong range like the Mercedes EQS and the Lucid Air they are rightly praised for their range. > and then they will choose some new strawman to battle No. This is just a strawman of your own.