8 ms·

Compared to what is allowed in germany it feels like that, though.

mpweiher 5y ago
Really? Can you give an example, aside from Holocaust denial? If anything, having lived in both the US and Germany, I feel more free in Germany. As an example, Google would not have been able to fire James Damore for his memo here.
- pc86 5y ago
  The reason Google wouldn't have been able to do that has nothing to do with freedom of speech here, though. It's not at all relevant.
  - mpweiher 5y ago
    Actually it does, unless you think government is the only entity that can restrict speech.
    - pc86 5y ago
      The government is the only entity legally prohibited from repealing it (in the US, anyway).
      - mpweiher 5y ago
        But US-style FoS only applies to the government in the first place: "Freedom of speech, also called free speech, means the free and public expression of opinions without censorship, interference and restraint by the government." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_speech_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_speech_in_the_Unite... (Emphasis mine). Specifically: "The First Amendment's constitutional right of free speech, which is applicable to state and local governments under the incorporation doctrine,[6] prevents only government restrictions on speech, not restrictions imposed by private individuals or businesses unless they are acting on behalf of the government.[7]" So companies can restrict your speech all day long, as happened with James Damore. "However, laws may restrict the ability of private businesses and individuals from restricting the speech of others, such as employment laws that restrict employers' ability to prevent employees from disclosing their salary to coworkers or attempting to organize a labor union.[8]" But that is not the 1st amendment or general FoS legislation, but specifically employment laws. And employment laws are notoriously employer-friendly and employee-hostile in the US.
- MinorTom 5y ago
  The US libel laws are much more publisher-friendly - I cannot legally claim that Oury Jalloh [0] was murdered in Germany (even though he almost definitely was), whereas in the US the accused police has a higher burden in proving he wasn't. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Oury_Jalloh https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Oury_Jalloh
  - mpweiher 5y ago
    Why do you say that you cannot do this? a.) Lots of people appear to be doing it: https://html.duckduckgo.com/html?q=mord%20an%20Oury%20Jalloh https://html.duckduckgo.com/html?q=mord%20an%20Oury%20Jalloh What exactly do you fear the repercussions would be? b.) Accusations of a crime presented as a fact appear to be "libel per se" in the US, so quite actionable: https://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Criminal+libel https://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Criminal+libe...
- randomNumber7 5y ago
  Some things you are allowed to say in US would be punished as insult or hatespeech in germany. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_speech_by_country#Germany https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_speech_by_country#G...
solarkraft 5y ago
You can't deny the Holocaust or directly call for violence. That's about all I can think of. The interpretation of that isn't just done by the government, but by courts, which seem to do a pretty okay job at it. You can still express political opinions pretty unproblematically.

Really? Can you give an example, aside from Holocaust denial? If anything, having lived in both the US and Germany, I feel more free in Germany. As an example, Google would not have been able to fire James Damore for his memo here.

pc86 5y ago
The reason Google wouldn't have been able to do that has nothing to do with freedom of speech here, though. It's not at all relevant.
- mpweiher 5y ago
  Actually it does, unless you think government is the only entity that can restrict speech.
  - pc86 5y ago
    The government is the only entity legally prohibited from repealing it (in the US, anyway).
    - mpweiher 5y ago
      But US-style FoS only applies to the government in the first place: "Freedom of speech, also called free speech, means the free and public expression of opinions without censorship, interference and restraint by the government." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_speech_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_speech_in_the_Unite... (Emphasis mine). Specifically: "The First Amendment's constitutional right of free speech, which is applicable to state and local governments under the incorporation doctrine,[6] prevents only government restrictions on speech, not restrictions imposed by private individuals or businesses unless they are acting on behalf of the government.[7]" So companies can restrict your speech all day long, as happened with James Damore. "However, laws may restrict the ability of private businesses and individuals from restricting the speech of others, such as employment laws that restrict employers' ability to prevent employees from disclosing their salary to coworkers or attempting to organize a labor union.[8]" But that is not the 1st amendment or general FoS legislation, but specifically employment laws. And employment laws are notoriously employer-friendly and employee-hostile in the US.
MinorTom 5y ago
The US libel laws are much more publisher-friendly - I cannot legally claim that Oury Jalloh [0] was murdered in Germany (even though he almost definitely was), whereas in the US the accused police has a higher burden in proving he wasn't. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Oury_Jalloh https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Oury_Jalloh
- mpweiher 5y ago
  Why do you say that you cannot do this? a.) Lots of people appear to be doing it: https://html.duckduckgo.com/html?q=mord%20an%20Oury%20Jalloh https://html.duckduckgo.com/html?q=mord%20an%20Oury%20Jalloh What exactly do you fear the repercussions would be? b.) Accusations of a crime presented as a fact appear to be "libel per se" in the US, so quite actionable: https://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Criminal+libel https://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Criminal+libe...
randomNumber7 5y ago
Some things you are allowed to say in US would be punished as insult or hatespeech in germany. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_speech_by_country#Germany https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_speech_by_country#G...

solarkraft 5y ago

You can't deny the Holocaust or directly call for violence. That's about all I can think of. The interpretation of that isn't just done by the government, but by courts, which seem to do a pretty okay job at it. You can still express political opinions pretty unproblematically.