7 ms·

There already were mandatory vaccinations (against smallpox) in Germany, up to the 1970s, and there is a current vaccine mandate against measles for children. T

by krylon 5y ago

There already were mandatory vaccinations (against smallpox) in Germany, up to the 1970s, and there is a current vaccine mandate against measles for children. That cat has been out of the bag for a long time. And with good reason. Smallpox, rabies, tetanus, and tuberculosis are practically extinct in Western Europe because of vaccines. Let's try to add Covid to that list, please?

syshum 5y ago
[flagged]
- wizzwizz4 5y ago
  > and the fact that the mRNA vaccines does not "kill" the virus in the same way the SmallPox vaccine did, …? Actually, it has exactly the same effect as the smallpox vaccine. It vaccinated, aka immunised. What are you on about?
  - ahartmetz 5y ago
    > What are you on about? I guess what is commonly called sterilizing immunity. Immunity which is so effective that the illness doesn't occur and which makes it impossible to infect others.
    - _0ffh 5y ago
      In this context I was recently pointed to the story of Marek's disease [0], which went from a "quite low death rate" to "100% lethal" in a few decades. I think it's worth to know about this and have a long, hard think about the potential consequences of universal, non-sterilising vaccination. We might be locking ourselves into a situation with no escape. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marek%27s_disease#Prevention https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marek%27s_disease#Prevention
  - syshum 5y ago
    [flagged]
    - d110af5ccf 5y ago
      This has nothing to do with mRNA (to the best of my knowledge). mRNA is just a means to an end to get an immunogen into your body. Issues of effectiveness are (as far as I know) entirely due to the immunogen and not the delivery method (ie mRNA). Vaccines vary in effectiveness. Both the extent of immunity they confer and how long those effects last. A vaccine that's less effective than we might like is still a vaccine. I don't think arguments over what should officially constitute "immunity" are very interesting or insightful - it's a meaningless line in the sand. Ask instead about (relative to the unvaccinated) incidence of death, incidence of permanent effects, severity of symptoms, rate of hospitalization, rate of spread to others, and similar.
      - zwirbl 5y ago
        Well put! The singular focus on death rate in this kind of discussions feels narrowminded, bordering on ignorance, as the severity of symptoms and brutal long term effects for many are just as awful
perf1 5y ago
[flagged]
- snovv_crash 5y ago
  Then take the J&J vaccine... Or Sputnik, or Sinovac, or Astrozenica...
  - perf1 5y ago
    They are all based on the spike Protein, at least the once available in EU.
tut-urut-utut 5y ago
[flagged]
- logicchains 5y ago
  > Even worst dictators didn’t try yet to push a needle and inject some chemical substance into human body without consent. Hitler literally used compulsory medical treatment (sometimes via injections) to sterilise people without consent (and sometimes without the victim knowing what had happened): http://large.stanford.edu/courses/2017/ph241/payzer2/ http://large.stanford.edu/courses/2017/ph241/payzer2/.
  - tut-urut-utut 5y ago
    And here we go, Germany doing Hitler again. Although obvious I didn’t want to mention him in order to avoid Godwin’s law. I was merely referring to todays leaders that are called dictators by NATO, like Putin, Lukashenko, Kim Jong, Xi Jinping and similar. None of them even thinks about mandatory vaccination, but democratic Germany already plans it.
    - dang 5y ago
      > And here we go, Germany doing Hitler again. Flamebait like that is egregiously against the site guidelines and will get you banned here. No more of this, please. We'd appreciate it if you'd please stop posting flamewar comments and ideological battle comments to HN in general. It's not what this site is for, and it destroys what it is for. I'm not going to ban you, because you've also been posting some good comments, but please stick to those in the future. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- Jenda_ 5y ago
  > had less registered side effects than only BioNTech in one year Isn't this just some kind of bias? For example reporting and spreading information is easier than it was in 1970s, or that we take any suspected side effect for real these days? > that barely protect some of the people The ratio in ICUs is currently 1:5 to 1:10 in my country, showing a protection of 80 to 90% of the people (https://ockovani.opendatalab.cz/statistiky https://ockovani.opendatalab.cz/statistiky). In other countries, for example Israel (https://datadashboard.health.gov.il/COVID-19/general https://datadashboard.health.gov.il/COVID-19/general), it's about the same. That's not "barely" and "some", I think this is comparable with efficiency of other vaccines.

by krylon 5y ago

syshum 5y ago

[flagged]

wizzwizz4 5y ago
> and the fact that the mRNA vaccines does not "kill" the virus in the same way the SmallPox vaccine did, …? Actually, it has exactly the same effect as the smallpox vaccine. It vaccinated, aka immunised. What are you on about?
- ahartmetz 5y ago
  > What are you on about? I guess what is commonly called sterilizing immunity. Immunity which is so effective that the illness doesn't occur and which makes it impossible to infect others.
  - _0ffh 5y ago
    In this context I was recently pointed to the story of Marek's disease [0], which went from a "quite low death rate" to "100% lethal" in a few decades. I think it's worth to know about this and have a long, hard think about the potential consequences of universal, non-sterilising vaccination. We might be locking ourselves into a situation with no escape. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marek%27s_disease#Prevention https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marek%27s_disease#Prevention
- syshum 5y ago
  [flagged]
  - d110af5ccf 5y ago
    This has nothing to do with mRNA (to the best of my knowledge). mRNA is just a means to an end to get an immunogen into your body. Issues of effectiveness are (as far as I know) entirely due to the immunogen and not the delivery method (ie mRNA). Vaccines vary in effectiveness. Both the extent of immunity they confer and how long those effects last. A vaccine that's less effective than we might like is still a vaccine. I don't think arguments over what should officially constitute "immunity" are very interesting or insightful - it's a meaningless line in the sand. Ask instead about (relative to the unvaccinated) incidence of death, incidence of permanent effects, severity of symptoms, rate of hospitalization, rate of spread to others, and similar.
    - zwirbl 5y ago
      Well put! The singular focus on death rate in this kind of discussions feels narrowminded, bordering on ignorance, as the severity of symptoms and brutal long term effects for many are just as awful

perf1 5y ago

[flagged]

snovv_crash 5y ago
Then take the J&J vaccine... Or Sputnik, or Sinovac, or Astrozenica...
- perf1 5y ago
  They are all based on the spike Protein, at least the once available in EU.

tut-urut-utut 5y ago

[flagged]

logicchains 5y ago
> Even worst dictators didn’t try yet to push a needle and inject some chemical substance into human body without consent. Hitler literally used compulsory medical treatment (sometimes via injections) to sterilise people without consent (and sometimes without the victim knowing what had happened): http://large.stanford.edu/courses/2017/ph241/payzer2/ http://large.stanford.edu/courses/2017/ph241/payzer2/.
- tut-urut-utut 5y ago
  And here we go, Germany doing Hitler again. Although obvious I didn’t want to mention him in order to avoid Godwin’s law. I was merely referring to todays leaders that are called dictators by NATO, like Putin, Lukashenko, Kim Jong, Xi Jinping and similar. None of them even thinks about mandatory vaccination, but democratic Germany already plans it.
  - dang 5y ago
    > And here we go, Germany doing Hitler again. Flamebait like that is egregiously against the site guidelines and will get you banned here. No more of this, please. We'd appreciate it if you'd please stop posting flamewar comments and ideological battle comments to HN in general. It's not what this site is for, and it destroys what it is for. I'm not going to ban you, because you've also been posting some good comments, but please stick to those in the future. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
Jenda_ 5y ago
> had less registered side effects than only BioNTech in one year Isn't this just some kind of bias? For example reporting and spreading information is easier than it was in 1970s, or that we take any suspected side effect for real these days? > that barely protect some of the people The ratio in ICUs is currently 1:5 to 1:10 in my country, showing a protection of 80 to 90% of the people (https://ockovani.opendatalab.cz/statistiky https://ockovani.opendatalab.cz/statistiky). In other countries, for example Israel (https://datadashboard.health.gov.il/COVID-19/general https://datadashboard.health.gov.il/COVID-19/general), it's about the same. That's not "barely" and "some", I think this is comparable with efficiency of other vaccines.