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Father of five, and husband of teacher here. Math is a problem for middle school teachers because they often don't understand algebra, trigonometry, calculus or

Father of five, and husband of teacher here. Math is a problem for middle school teachers because they often don't understand algebra, trigonometry, calculus or geometry well enough to teach it. When you add to that common core style arithmetic where parents and family can't help (because they do not understand how to do common core-style math), teachers are struggling to even teach math at all. Additionally, many professions pay better than being a teacher, and unfortunately, that includes package handling for FedEx and UPS (just drove by a sign promising $24/hour starting) in some areas.

throwawayboise 5y ago
I'm never heard of a middle school offering trigonometry or calculus. The rare kid who is ready for those topics by age 13 can be accommodated by allowing him to attend that class at the local high school. A middle school algebra teacher should of course understand middle school algebra. This is not an unreasonable expectation for a job that requires a college education. If a teacher lacks the ability to master middle-school algebra, how on earth did he get into college?
- maniflames 5y ago
  Honest question from someone from the Netherlands: when are kids in the states old enough for these topics? Me and all of my friends were thaught the fundamentals of algebra & trigonomatry (admittedly not calculus) at 13 years old. I had no idea the wasn't the case in the US and it honestly kind of blows my mind.
  - indymike 5y ago
    The norm for exposure to basic algebra is 5th (10-11 years old) grade in most US states. Not sure what the standards are exactly, but each grade after that does progressively more, with 14 year olds expected to complete a full year course.
  - Izkata 5y ago
    Very roughly, subtract 6 from age to get grade. For example, barring being held back, jumping a grade, or unusual things around birthday timing, you'd usually finish 12th grade at age 18.
  - scruple 5y ago
    I came through the American system, in the 1990s, in a rural place. At grades: 7: Algebra I 8: Algebra II 9: Geometry 10: Trigonometry/Pre-Calculus 11: Calculus 12: Calculus-based Physics
    - ecshafer 5y ago
      My school was rural and that is way more advanced than mine was. 8: Algebra I 9: Algebra II 10: Geometry 11: Trigonometry 12: Pre-calculus Advanced class was -1 year. This was Upstate New York 90s/00s. Though I guess to be more specific these courses were actually combination. So it was 3 years of mixed algebra/geometry/trigonometry. Math A, B I think New York called it. Until Pre-calculus Which was actually year and a half courses of mixed topics.
      - scruple 5y ago
        I should've added that I was on the advanced track and was a year ahead of most of my peers, though we had full class of > 20 students (in a graduating class of, I wanna say, ~100-ish) who were in this track. IIRC, it was a toss up what most students did for Math in the 11th and 12th grade. I do believe that the school offered a dedicated Trigonometry and Pre-Calculus course that many students took in the 11th and 12th grades, and there was also an Algebra-based Physics class that students could take, but I want to say that they were not necessary for graduation.
  - eitally 5y ago
    In some US public schools, the "advanced math" curriculum puts 7th graders in algebra. In more, though, algebra isn't available until 8th grade (and that is still treated as accelerated). "Normal" math progression has standardized on algebra as the first high school course, followed by geometry, then trig, then precalculus/analysis. The first level of math acceleration moves that high school progression up a year and has seniors taking calc 1 (limits/derivates & single variable integrals. The second level of acceleration has calc 1 in 11th grade and calc 2 (multi-variable) in 12th grade. There are a handful of schools, mostly private, that move faster or have more diverse math curriculum offerings, but this is the most common. So, when do American kids his algebra? Standard curriculum: 9th grade, ~14yo
- ben7799 5y ago
  It's not that the students need to be taught high school or college math in Junior high. It's that a teacher which did not master high school and college math is not necessarily a good candidate to teach high school or advanced middle school math, and it absolutely occurs when the primary focus of the teacher's college career was teaching and not Math or another STEM field. The model in the US seems to have become that the Teaching degree is the most important degree for a public school teacher regardless of the subject that is going to be taught. At some point that breaks down in a big way in the STEM fields in the range of middle or high school. Certainly you are not going to be taught Math at the College level by someone who does not have a Math degree. But in public school they've decided at some point that a math teacher doesn't need to have a math degree.
  - yakkityyak 5y ago
    > But in public school they've decided at some point that a math teacher doesn't need to have a math degree. For anything pre-high school that would seem sort of overkill. A "good" teacher in the earlier grades is more of a function of how well they work with children.
    - ben7799 5y ago
      This discussion is mostly about 8th grade and up though.
- indymike 5y ago
  > A middle school algebra teacher should of course understand middle school algebra. Yes. Exactly. > If a teacher lacks the ability to master middle-school algebra, how on earth did he get into college? Knowing a subject well enough to pass a class or pass a test is not the same as knowing it well enough to teach. STEM in schools is a real problem because, well, non-education jobs pay 3-5x what teaching jobs do for math, CS, and robotic.
- jimbokun 5y ago
  Maybe we need a reformed "Teach for America" style program, where the government gives scholarships to students getting double undergrad major in Mathematics and Education, if they agree to teach in inner city schools for X years after graduation.
- StanislavPetrov 5y ago
  >If a teacher lacks the ability to master middle-school algebra, how on earth did he get into college? By eliminating all testing and objective standards.
dorchadas 5y ago
> Math is a problem for middle school teachers because they often don't understand algebra, Thank you for saying this. I am/was a high school math teacher and this was always the biggest problem when we got students in. The teachers at lower levels just don't understand it well enough to teach it. And, sadly, the same can even be said to be true for some of my coworkers. Our calculus teacher hasn't retired yet because there's nobody she trusts enough in the math department to understand pre-cal/calculus well enough to teach it (I'm on a leave of absence and have switched to the science department, though I've been asked by her and admin to teach those if I return). To me, common core math makes perfect sense. It's how I do math in my head. But it's also because I feel like I understand math. If I'm subtracting 26 from something, I'm going to subtract 30 and add back 4. It's just quicker and simpler. That's what I've seen parents struggling with, and even teachers struggle with it too! Because they don't get how numbers work. It's really frustrating and harms the kids. I wish I could overhaul how elementary school teachers are trained as in my state they're not even required to do well in math, or take any upper level math courses, before teaching math.
- julienb_sea 5y ago
  This is a huge problem. I have friends who are teachers and have never taken anything past trig at a high school level, and certainly have no understanding of calculus. I think this results in a fundamental understanding gap, since the main application for algebra is really cemented in higher math (calculus).
  - dorchadas 5y ago
    I sadly don't know how to fix it without reworking the entire teacher education system, sadly, but I do believe it's the problem affecting primary schools especially. How many times are you taught to read and the 'importance' of reading by a teacher who doesn't like to read themselves? Or 'science' by a teacher who has no grasp of what science is and just reads the slides (I distinctly remember having to correct my 5th grade teacher becasue the notes she used were so old it said Saturn was the only planet with rings...I was that kid, but at least it was after class!). We need teachers who have trained in those areas, and then wanted to become teachers. And it needs to go all the way up through middle and high schools, but I truly think the focus should be on primary first. It's why we get so many kids who don't understand multiplication when they get to high school, let alone division -- their teachers don't either and they just give them calculators at a young age! And it all boils down to how teachers themselves are trained. Back to math at the school I taught at, there are two there who understand it. Funnily enough, they both came out of retirement to teach again (one has been doing it for 15 years, and the other just retired from her VP job a few years ago), and they're related. The older one married the younger one's uncle. It's funny how it stays in the family. The younger one's dad was also a math/chem/physics teacher, and was an amazing teacher until he just got too old. They were the only teachers I know or had at that school when I was there who truly knew math, and it showed in how they taught and the general outcomes of their students -- A "C" student in the accelerated algebra II class made an easy "A" on college algebra when they got there two years later, simply because it had been imparted to them that well.
rahimnathwani 5y ago
"Additionally, many professions pay better than being a teacher, and unfortunately, that includes package handling for FedEx and UPS (just drove by a sign promising $24/hour starting) in some areas." In California, teachers' retirement benefits include defined-benefit pensions, with some inflation-protection. They also don't work the same hours as package handlers. Total pay+benefits for teachers in SF is about 50% higher than base salary.[0] [0] https://transparentcalifornia.com/download/salaries/school-districts/san-francisco/san-francisco-unified/ https://transparentcalifornia.com/download/salaries/school-d...
teeray 5y ago
> Math is a problem for middle school teachers because they often don't understand algebra, trigonometry, calculus or geometry well enough to teach it. The other problem you alluded to is that if they do understand well enough to teach it and teach it well, there’s a good chance there’s an engineering position they can get instead.

throwawayboise 5y ago

I'm never heard of a middle school offering trigonometry or calculus. The rare kid who is ready for those topics by age 13 can be accommodated by allowing him to attend that class at the local high school. A middle school algebra teacher should of course understand middle school algebra. This is not an unreasonable expectation for a job that requires a college education. If a teacher lacks the ability to master middle-school algebra, how on earth did he get into college?

maniflames 5y ago
Honest question from someone from the Netherlands: when are kids in the states old enough for these topics? Me and all of my friends were thaught the fundamentals of algebra & trigonomatry (admittedly not calculus) at 13 years old. I had no idea the wasn't the case in the US and it honestly kind of blows my mind.
- indymike 5y ago
  The norm for exposure to basic algebra is 5th (10-11 years old) grade in most US states. Not sure what the standards are exactly, but each grade after that does progressively more, with 14 year olds expected to complete a full year course.
- Izkata 5y ago
  Very roughly, subtract 6 from age to get grade. For example, barring being held back, jumping a grade, or unusual things around birthday timing, you'd usually finish 12th grade at age 18.
- scruple 5y ago
  I came through the American system, in the 1990s, in a rural place. At grades: 7: Algebra I 8: Algebra II 9: Geometry 10: Trigonometry/Pre-Calculus 11: Calculus 12: Calculus-based Physics
  - ecshafer 5y ago
    My school was rural and that is way more advanced than mine was. 8: Algebra I 9: Algebra II 10: Geometry 11: Trigonometry 12: Pre-calculus Advanced class was -1 year. This was Upstate New York 90s/00s. Though I guess to be more specific these courses were actually combination. So it was 3 years of mixed algebra/geometry/trigonometry. Math A, B I think New York called it. Until Pre-calculus Which was actually year and a half courses of mixed topics.
    - scruple 5y ago
      I should've added that I was on the advanced track and was a year ahead of most of my peers, though we had full class of > 20 students (in a graduating class of, I wanna say, ~100-ish) who were in this track. IIRC, it was a toss up what most students did for Math in the 11th and 12th grade. I do believe that the school offered a dedicated Trigonometry and Pre-Calculus course that many students took in the 11th and 12th grades, and there was also an Algebra-based Physics class that students could take, but I want to say that they were not necessary for graduation.
- eitally 5y ago
  In some US public schools, the "advanced math" curriculum puts 7th graders in algebra. In more, though, algebra isn't available until 8th grade (and that is still treated as accelerated). "Normal" math progression has standardized on algebra as the first high school course, followed by geometry, then trig, then precalculus/analysis. The first level of math acceleration moves that high school progression up a year and has seniors taking calc 1 (limits/derivates & single variable integrals. The second level of acceleration has calc 1 in 11th grade and calc 2 (multi-variable) in 12th grade. There are a handful of schools, mostly private, that move faster or have more diverse math curriculum offerings, but this is the most common. So, when do American kids his algebra? Standard curriculum: 9th grade, ~14yo
ben7799 5y ago
It's not that the students need to be taught high school or college math in Junior high. It's that a teacher which did not master high school and college math is not necessarily a good candidate to teach high school or advanced middle school math, and it absolutely occurs when the primary focus of the teacher's college career was teaching and not Math or another STEM field. The model in the US seems to have become that the Teaching degree is the most important degree for a public school teacher regardless of the subject that is going to be taught. At some point that breaks down in a big way in the STEM fields in the range of middle or high school. Certainly you are not going to be taught Math at the College level by someone who does not have a Math degree. But in public school they've decided at some point that a math teacher doesn't need to have a math degree.
- yakkityyak 5y ago
  > But in public school they've decided at some point that a math teacher doesn't need to have a math degree. For anything pre-high school that would seem sort of overkill. A "good" teacher in the earlier grades is more of a function of how well they work with children.
  - ben7799 5y ago
    This discussion is mostly about 8th grade and up though.
indymike 5y ago
> A middle school algebra teacher should of course understand middle school algebra. Yes. Exactly. > If a teacher lacks the ability to master middle-school algebra, how on earth did he get into college? Knowing a subject well enough to pass a class or pass a test is not the same as knowing it well enough to teach. STEM in schools is a real problem because, well, non-education jobs pay 3-5x what teaching jobs do for math, CS, and robotic.
jimbokun 5y ago
Maybe we need a reformed "Teach for America" style program, where the government gives scholarships to students getting double undergrad major in Mathematics and Education, if they agree to teach in inner city schools for X years after graduation.
StanislavPetrov 5y ago
>If a teacher lacks the ability to master middle-school algebra, how on earth did he get into college? By eliminating all testing and objective standards.

dorchadas 5y ago

> Math is a problem for middle school teachers because they often don't understand algebra, Thank you for saying this. I am/was a high school math teacher and this was always the biggest problem when we got students in. The teachers at lower levels just don't understand it well enough to teach it. And, sadly, the same can even be said to be true for some of my coworkers. Our calculus teacher hasn't retired yet because there's nobody she trusts enough in the math department to understand pre-cal/calculus well enough to teach it (I'm on a leave of absence and have switched to the science department, though I've been asked by her and admin to teach those if I return). To me, common core math makes perfect sense. It's how I do math in my head. But it's also because I feel like I understand math. If I'm subtracting 26 from something, I'm going to subtract 30 and add back 4. It's just quicker and simpler. That's what I've seen parents struggling with, and even teachers struggle with it too! Because they don't get how numbers work. It's really frustrating and harms the kids. I wish I could overhaul how elementary school teachers are trained as in my state they're not even required to do well in math, or take any upper level math courses, before teaching math.

julienb_sea 5y ago
This is a huge problem. I have friends who are teachers and have never taken anything past trig at a high school level, and certainly have no understanding of calculus. I think this results in a fundamental understanding gap, since the main application for algebra is really cemented in higher math (calculus).
- dorchadas 5y ago
  I sadly don't know how to fix it without reworking the entire teacher education system, sadly, but I do believe it's the problem affecting primary schools especially. How many times are you taught to read and the 'importance' of reading by a teacher who doesn't like to read themselves? Or 'science' by a teacher who has no grasp of what science is and just reads the slides (I distinctly remember having to correct my 5th grade teacher becasue the notes she used were so old it said Saturn was the only planet with rings...I was that kid, but at least it was after class!). We need teachers who have trained in those areas, and then wanted to become teachers. And it needs to go all the way up through middle and high schools, but I truly think the focus should be on primary first. It's why we get so many kids who don't understand multiplication when they get to high school, let alone division -- their teachers don't either and they just give them calculators at a young age! And it all boils down to how teachers themselves are trained. Back to math at the school I taught at, there are two there who understand it. Funnily enough, they both came out of retirement to teach again (one has been doing it for 15 years, and the other just retired from her VP job a few years ago), and they're related. The older one married the younger one's uncle. It's funny how it stays in the family. The younger one's dad was also a math/chem/physics teacher, and was an amazing teacher until he just got too old. They were the only teachers I know or had at that school when I was there who truly knew math, and it showed in how they taught and the general outcomes of their students -- A "C" student in the accelerated algebra II class made an easy "A" on college algebra when they got there two years later, simply because it had been imparted to them that well.

rahimnathwani 5y ago

"Additionally, many professions pay better than being a teacher, and unfortunately, that includes package handling for FedEx and UPS (just drove by a sign promising $24/hour starting) in some areas." In California, teachers' retirement benefits include defined-benefit pensions, with some inflation-protection. They also don't work the same hours as package handlers. Total pay+benefits for teachers in SF is about 50% higher than base salary.[0] [0] https://transparentcalifornia.com/download/salaries/school-districts/san-francisco/san-francisco-unified/ https://transparentcalifornia.com/download/salaries/school-d...

teeray 5y ago

> Math is a problem for middle school teachers because they often don't understand algebra, trigonometry, calculus or geometry well enough to teach it. The other problem you alluded to is that if they do understand well enough to teach it and teach it well, there’s a good chance there’s an engineering position they can get instead.