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This makes no sense - stem and liberal arts aren’t mutually exclusive things you can just separate. In fact math itself is generally thought to be part of the “

This makes no sense - stem and liberal arts aren’t mutually exclusive things you can just separate. In fact math itself is generally thought to be part of the “liberal arts”, along with logic, which could be said to be the precursor to computer science.

Anechoic 5y ago
I read that as "stem & liberal arts" as one stream and "vocational/trade schools" as the second stream.
- bluGill 5y ago
  We don't need more trade schools though. Over here on hacker news many of us have day jobs eliminating those jobs. While we won't succeed (and trades are still a better job than many artistic degrees) there are a lot of kids going into them. Most trades are also taught on the job. Want to be a carpenter - you can start tomorrow morning at 7am in any large city. From there you can branch out if you want.
  - jimbokun 5y ago
    The majority of programming jobs, DevOps jobs, etc. could be learned in a trade school. Only a minority of programming jobs really require a four year CS degree. Also, is that true that most trades can be learned on the job without prior training? I thought you needed a decent amount of training to be a plumber, electrician, etc.
jaywalk 5y ago
See "Modern usage" in: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_arts_education https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_arts_education "The modern use of the term liberal arts consists of four areas: the natural sciences, social sciences, arts, and humanities." So no, math is not "generally thought" to be part of the liberal arts.
- etchalon 5y ago
  So you're of the belief that Physics, which is considered a natural science, does not require "math"? Interesting.
  - imoverclocked 5y ago
    I had two different Physics teachers/classes in high school. One was almost entirely conceptual and provided a fantastic base with which to reason about the world. Everything was explained completely without math and then a little bit of math (usually no higher than basic algebra) was used to describe what we had just developed to fulfill basic requirements of the curriculum. People had wonderful conversations about how things worked and understanding was developed from observation and intuition. The other was almost completely the opposite direction and calculus based. I often found errors in the application of math and reasoning about the subject. There was a moment where the teacher couldn't be convinced that something he said was wrong because of the math he was looking at. Years later, in a college Physics course, a similar core concept was covered and I was internally vindicated. Einstein/Feynman were known to be highly conceptual and the math was often worked out after a thought experiment. A famous quote by Einstein, "Do not worry too much about your difficulties in mathematics, I can assure you that mine are still greater." It all depends on how it is taught. All of that being said, Mathematics is an excellent tool to sharpen ones ability to reason.
- caconym_ 5y ago
  If you read the whole "Modern usage" section rather than just the first line, you will see that mathematics is listed prominently there (and also logic, CS, physics, etc...).
- MrsPeaches 5y ago
  It then goes on to say: Academic areas that are associated with the term liberal arts include: Life sciences (biology, ecology, neuroscience) Physical science (physics, astronomy, chemistry, physical geography) Logic, mathematics, statistics, computer science Philosophy History Social science (anthropology, economics, human geography, linguistics, political science, jurisprudence, psychology, and sociology) Creative arts (fine arts, music, performing arts, literature)
leetcrew 5y ago
liberal arts may include parts of stem, but stem and humanities are pretty much disjoint, which is probably a better way to have this discussion. I think there's an argument for not forcing people who are interested/capable in stem to suffer through perfunctory humanities courses (and vice versa). is something lost when someone learns about propositional logic and set theory without learning about the vienna circle and logical positivism? yes. does it matter very much practically? probably not, and stem people who are interested in that kind of thing can probably pick it up on their own.
- sokoloff 5y ago
  > not forcing people who are interested/capable in stem to suffer through perfunctory humanities courses I hated my humanities courses all through middle and high school and college. I took as many advanced math/science courses as my high school had. I graduated from a well-regarded technical university. My humanities courses have probably had more positive impact on my career earnings than my tech courses. I feel like I should find my old English teachers and apologize to them.
  - panzagl 5y ago
    You hated them for the reason most STEM track students do- because they're hard.
- NoSorryCannot 5y ago
  They're not disjoint. At an advanced level, subjects like linguistics and psychology heavily cross displines with mathematics, logic, and neuroscience at least. Students probably shouldn't be falling hard on one side or the other any earlier than they already do lest even more of them believe they are completely unrelated.
- jimbokun 5y ago
  My take on the core skills for any educated individual: Be able to write well to communicate your ideas clearly and persuade people to your position. Be able to apply math to a variety of practical problems. I think that prepares you to specialize in any field later.

Anechoic 5y ago

I read that as "stem & liberal arts" as one stream and "vocational/trade schools" as the second stream.

bluGill 5y ago
We don't need more trade schools though. Over here on hacker news many of us have day jobs eliminating those jobs. While we won't succeed (and trades are still a better job than many artistic degrees) there are a lot of kids going into them. Most trades are also taught on the job. Want to be a carpenter - you can start tomorrow morning at 7am in any large city. From there you can branch out if you want.
- jimbokun 5y ago
  The majority of programming jobs, DevOps jobs, etc. could be learned in a trade school. Only a minority of programming jobs really require a four year CS degree. Also, is that true that most trades can be learned on the job without prior training? I thought you needed a decent amount of training to be a plumber, electrician, etc.

jaywalk 5y ago

See "Modern usage" in: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_arts_education https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_arts_education "The modern use of the term liberal arts consists of four areas: the natural sciences, social sciences, arts, and humanities." So no, math is not "generally thought" to be part of the liberal arts.

etchalon 5y ago
So you're of the belief that Physics, which is considered a natural science, does not require "math"? Interesting.
- imoverclocked 5y ago
  I had two different Physics teachers/classes in high school. One was almost entirely conceptual and provided a fantastic base with which to reason about the world. Everything was explained completely without math and then a little bit of math (usually no higher than basic algebra) was used to describe what we had just developed to fulfill basic requirements of the curriculum. People had wonderful conversations about how things worked and understanding was developed from observation and intuition. The other was almost completely the opposite direction and calculus based. I often found errors in the application of math and reasoning about the subject. There was a moment where the teacher couldn't be convinced that something he said was wrong because of the math he was looking at. Years later, in a college Physics course, a similar core concept was covered and I was internally vindicated. Einstein/Feynman were known to be highly conceptual and the math was often worked out after a thought experiment. A famous quote by Einstein, "Do not worry too much about your difficulties in mathematics, I can assure you that mine are still greater." It all depends on how it is taught. All of that being said, Mathematics is an excellent tool to sharpen ones ability to reason.
caconym_ 5y ago
If you read the whole "Modern usage" section rather than just the first line, you will see that mathematics is listed prominently there (and also logic, CS, physics, etc...).
MrsPeaches 5y ago
It then goes on to say: Academic areas that are associated with the term liberal arts include: Life sciences (biology, ecology, neuroscience) Physical science (physics, astronomy, chemistry, physical geography) Logic, mathematics, statistics, computer science Philosophy History Social science (anthropology, economics, human geography, linguistics, political science, jurisprudence, psychology, and sociology) Creative arts (fine arts, music, performing arts, literature)

leetcrew 5y ago

liberal arts may include parts of stem, but stem and humanities are pretty much disjoint, which is probably a better way to have this discussion. I think there's an argument for not forcing people who are interested/capable in stem to suffer through perfunctory humanities courses (and vice versa). is something lost when someone learns about propositional logic and set theory without learning about the vienna circle and logical positivism? yes. does it matter very much practically? probably not, and stem people who are interested in that kind of thing can probably pick it up on their own.

sokoloff 5y ago
> not forcing people who are interested/capable in stem to suffer through perfunctory humanities courses I hated my humanities courses all through middle and high school and college. I took as many advanced math/science courses as my high school had. I graduated from a well-regarded technical university. My humanities courses have probably had more positive impact on my career earnings than my tech courses. I feel like I should find my old English teachers and apologize to them.
- panzagl 5y ago
  You hated them for the reason most STEM track students do- because they're hard.
NoSorryCannot 5y ago
They're not disjoint. At an advanced level, subjects like linguistics and psychology heavily cross displines with mathematics, logic, and neuroscience at least. Students probably shouldn't be falling hard on one side or the other any earlier than they already do lest even more of them believe they are completely unrelated.
jimbokun 5y ago
My take on the core skills for any educated individual: Be able to write well to communicate your ideas clearly and persuade people to your position. Be able to apply math to a variety of practical problems. I think that prepares you to specialize in any field later.