5 ms·

> not so smart that it's getting bored or trying to figure out how to escape. This could be understood as if the most intelligent dogs were always bored or try

by thih9 5y ago

> not so smart that it's getting bored or trying to figure out how to escape. This could be understood as if the most intelligent dogs were always bored or trying to escape. To clarify: intelligent dogs do need more stimulation, this is very true. But as long as they get it, they're happy.

a-saleh 5y ago
I discussed this with my partner that takes her hobby of dog-training very seriously (like, we live with three dogs, and she sometimes does payed woroshops, e.t.c) that Border Colies are often considered to be the most intelligent dogs, but that might be mostly a side-product of breeding them to be eager to please. In theory many other breeds could be more intelligent, but border collie is the one most likely to be excited to learn how to be good at the tests we give the dogs.
- denton-scratch 5y ago
  The Border Collie is indeed intelligent. It is overwhelmingly the sheepdog preferred by Welsh shepherds. It is also loyal, good-natured, and pretty safe around children. This breed doesn't suffer health problems due to inbreeding, because it isn't a (UK) Kennel Club breed; there's no such thing as a "pedigree" Border Collie in the UK.
  - Vetch 5y ago
    Yeah, from what I've read Collies are a smarter breed and also vary in intelligence amongst themselves. High obedience has been shown to at times be counter to good test performance as it means lower curiosity, higher dependence on humans and lower problem solving persistence. Collies are curious, enjoy learning and having a job but can be chaotic when bored, which is markedly different from incurious obedience. > This breed doesn't suffer health problems due to inbreeding, because it isn't a (UK) Kennel Club breed The paper aligns with what you say, it remarks that Collies are highly inbred but not suffering that much from it. Can you explain the significance of not being a Kennel Club breed? Can that be the whole story, though? > There were interesting exceptions to the correlation of inbreeding and health. The Border terrier, Basenji, Collie, and English setter breeds have high inbreeding but low morbidity. Likewise, the Malinois, Pomeranian and Russian Tsvetnaya Bolonka (Russian Toy) have lower inbreeding and high morbidity. These example breeds are neither brachycephalic nor particularly known for extreme morphologies. > In the case of healthy breeds with high inbreeding, it may be possible that these breeds have been purged of deleterious alleles as has happened with inbred mouse strains > In the opposite situation, the recorded morbidities could be high allele frequency Mendelian diseases or potentially conditions linked to phenotypes under selection in the breed. These discrepancies could also exist due to population differences between the insurance data and the inbreeding data.
    - denton-scratch 5y ago
      > Can you explain the significance of not being a Kennel Club breed? Well, the Kennel Club rates breeds in terms of their conformance to "spec", which is a lot about appearance. Inevitably, breeders breed to the spec. Border Collies aren't bred to any spec. (Collies are a different breed, which I believe is rated by the Kennel Club)
      - a-saleh 5y ago
        Yeah, I have seen a working dog Collie compared to a bred-for-beauty-constests Collie and they could be considered two distinct breeds
      - spfzero 5y ago
        That's also true for English Sheppards; they are bred for temperament, not conformance to appearance rules. So they don't all look identical, but they are great companions (and good at herding).
retrac 5y ago
It's my experience that a dog's tendency to wander or want to escape has only a little to do with its intelligence. (Their ability to effect an escape is a different matter.) I think it's partly just a personality trait. I've met stupid, misanthropic chihuahuas that won't wander and intelligent, deeply loyal huskies that chase after everything they can see.
- etempleton 5y ago
  We tend to measure a dog's intelligence by obedience and trainability, but dogs like huskies and beagles do not follow that rule. There is a reason there are always beagles readily available for adoption. My beagle growing up extremely smart--he knew every trick you can think of; he could remember specific objects by name; track someone's scent in an instant if you said find XXX; and seemed at times to understand whole sentences. Unfortunately, he also was stubborn, independent, and had an insatiable drive to follow scents.
  - Jagerbizzle 5y ago
    Our goldendoodle sounds very similar to this. She's great at "go see XYZ" or "go get ABC", knows all the party tricks, and will play fetch endlessly without ever wandering off no matter how far I throw the ball. If she ever happens to see a squirrel or a chipmunk however she'll try to rip the leash off of your arm; if she's ever off-leash and sees a critter like this you can throw the hours of trained recall out the window. Fortunately this has never happened near traffic or a cliff.
    - monkmartinez 5y ago
      Same experience. Our goldendoodle is fantastic. Our neighbors can't believe she just chills with us in the front yard without a leash. They can't let their dogo out of the house without a fence or leash. She only barks once in a blue moon and everyone in the house is on immediate high alert when she does. Generally, its salesperson walking up the front driveway. She doesn't bark at UPS/Fedex any longer... which is good this time of year. I run her every other day a few miles and she is right with me, generally off leash. When she sees a lizard tho, its game over. I have to stop and physically pull her off the bush she is buried in to get the lizard. She is very food motivated and the word "treat" is spelled out in our house because she will not leave you alone until she gets something if she hears that word. My only complaint is grooming. To do it properly, I've been told requires brushing her everyday. Not happening. I have tried to do it 3 times a week... it takes like two hours and is completely exhausting. We just get her shaved every two months or so.
brianwawok 5y ago
As a owner of a smart and a dumb dog.. the smart dog is a lot lot lot lot more work. Dumb dogs make so much easier pets..
- vidanay 5y ago
  Laughs in Australian Shepherd. Idk how, but my Aussie manages to be simultaneously smart and dumb.
- kemayo 5y ago
  For sure -- you should only get a working-breed dog (which tend to be the smarter ones as we view it) if you actively enjoy spending time on training with them. If your ideal dog experience is sitting on the couch with them keeping you company, well, there's other breeds for that. :D I have a pitbull/amstaff/boxer mutt, which is a pretty good balance on being smart enough to learn tricks quickly but still be kept happy with walks and toys. I'm staying well away from the border collies and Australian cattle dogs...

by thih9 5y ago

a-saleh 5y ago

I discussed this with my partner that takes her hobby of dog-training very seriously (like, we live with three dogs, and she sometimes does payed woroshops, e.t.c) that Border Colies are often considered to be the most intelligent dogs, but that might be mostly a side-product of breeding them to be eager to please. In theory many other breeds could be more intelligent, but border collie is the one most likely to be excited to learn how to be good at the tests we give the dogs.

denton-scratch 5y ago
The Border Collie is indeed intelligent. It is overwhelmingly the sheepdog preferred by Welsh shepherds. It is also loyal, good-natured, and pretty safe around children. This breed doesn't suffer health problems due to inbreeding, because it isn't a (UK) Kennel Club breed; there's no such thing as a "pedigree" Border Collie in the UK.
- Vetch 5y ago
  Yeah, from what I've read Collies are a smarter breed and also vary in intelligence amongst themselves. High obedience has been shown to at times be counter to good test performance as it means lower curiosity, higher dependence on humans and lower problem solving persistence. Collies are curious, enjoy learning and having a job but can be chaotic when bored, which is markedly different from incurious obedience. > This breed doesn't suffer health problems due to inbreeding, because it isn't a (UK) Kennel Club breed The paper aligns with what you say, it remarks that Collies are highly inbred but not suffering that much from it. Can you explain the significance of not being a Kennel Club breed? Can that be the whole story, though? > There were interesting exceptions to the correlation of inbreeding and health. The Border terrier, Basenji, Collie, and English setter breeds have high inbreeding but low morbidity. Likewise, the Malinois, Pomeranian and Russian Tsvetnaya Bolonka (Russian Toy) have lower inbreeding and high morbidity. These example breeds are neither brachycephalic nor particularly known for extreme morphologies. > In the case of healthy breeds with high inbreeding, it may be possible that these breeds have been purged of deleterious alleles as has happened with inbred mouse strains > In the opposite situation, the recorded morbidities could be high allele frequency Mendelian diseases or potentially conditions linked to phenotypes under selection in the breed. These discrepancies could also exist due to population differences between the insurance data and the inbreeding data.
  - denton-scratch 5y ago
    > Can you explain the significance of not being a Kennel Club breed? Well, the Kennel Club rates breeds in terms of their conformance to "spec", which is a lot about appearance. Inevitably, breeders breed to the spec. Border Collies aren't bred to any spec. (Collies are a different breed, which I believe is rated by the Kennel Club)
    - a-saleh 5y ago
      Yeah, I have seen a working dog Collie compared to a bred-for-beauty-constests Collie and they could be considered two distinct breeds
    - spfzero 5y ago
      That's also true for English Sheppards; they are bred for temperament, not conformance to appearance rules. So they don't all look identical, but they are great companions (and good at herding).

retrac 5y ago

It's my experience that a dog's tendency to wander or want to escape has only a little to do with its intelligence. (Their ability to effect an escape is a different matter.) I think it's partly just a personality trait. I've met stupid, misanthropic chihuahuas that won't wander and intelligent, deeply loyal huskies that chase after everything they can see.

etempleton 5y ago
We tend to measure a dog's intelligence by obedience and trainability, but dogs like huskies and beagles do not follow that rule. There is a reason there are always beagles readily available for adoption. My beagle growing up extremely smart--he knew every trick you can think of; he could remember specific objects by name; track someone's scent in an instant if you said find XXX; and seemed at times to understand whole sentences. Unfortunately, he also was stubborn, independent, and had an insatiable drive to follow scents.
- Jagerbizzle 5y ago
  Our goldendoodle sounds very similar to this. She's great at "go see XYZ" or "go get ABC", knows all the party tricks, and will play fetch endlessly without ever wandering off no matter how far I throw the ball. If she ever happens to see a squirrel or a chipmunk however she'll try to rip the leash off of your arm; if she's ever off-leash and sees a critter like this you can throw the hours of trained recall out the window. Fortunately this has never happened near traffic or a cliff.
  - monkmartinez 5y ago
    Same experience. Our goldendoodle is fantastic. Our neighbors can't believe she just chills with us in the front yard without a leash. They can't let their dogo out of the house without a fence or leash. She only barks once in a blue moon and everyone in the house is on immediate high alert when she does. Generally, its salesperson walking up the front driveway. She doesn't bark at UPS/Fedex any longer... which is good this time of year. I run her every other day a few miles and she is right with me, generally off leash. When she sees a lizard tho, its game over. I have to stop and physically pull her off the bush she is buried in to get the lizard. She is very food motivated and the word "treat" is spelled out in our house because she will not leave you alone until she gets something if she hears that word. My only complaint is grooming. To do it properly, I've been told requires brushing her everyday. Not happening. I have tried to do it 3 times a week... it takes like two hours and is completely exhausting. We just get her shaved every two months or so.

brianwawok 5y ago

As a owner of a smart and a dumb dog.. the smart dog is a lot lot lot lot more work. Dumb dogs make so much easier pets..

vidanay 5y ago
Laughs in Australian Shepherd. Idk how, but my Aussie manages to be simultaneously smart and dumb.
kemayo 5y ago
For sure -- you should only get a working-breed dog (which tend to be the smarter ones as we view it) if you actively enjoy spending time on training with them. If your ideal dog experience is sitting on the couch with them keeping you company, well, there's other breeds for that. :D I have a pitbull/amstaff/boxer mutt, which is a pretty good balance on being smart enough to learn tricks quickly but still be kept happy with walks and toys. I'm staying well away from the border collies and Australian cattle dogs...