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This is a huge problem when you see discussions on music theory as well; claims that things like Pythagorean 12 tone scales are "universal" because of the simpl

This is a huge problem when you see discussions on music theory as well; claims that things like Pythagorean 12 tone scales are "universal" because of the simplicity of the ratios. My favorite is the claims of the universality of divisive rhythm; where larger units (measures, phrases, the like) are subdivided into equal portions and those subdivisions are the building blocks of all rhythm ever. I think music education has gotten to the point where plenty of people (who are used to euro-centric western music, that is) are able to comprehend that some cultures use smaller than half-step increments or other scales, but the way our rhythm works is so ingrained that trying to explain additive rhythm is almost painfully mind-expanding, even those it's very very common outside of sub-saharan africa and western europe. This also applies to people who try to make statements about A432 or whatnot, which relies on having a very narrow view of music theory as a whole

bsedlm 5y ago
https://sethares.engr.wisc.edu/prelude.html https://sethares.engr.wisc.edu/prelude.html this work claims that the 12 tones system (IMO not a scale) seems "universal" is in fact so widespread because of the timbres in the instruments used (i.e. the haromic spectrum of strings, wind instruments, and human voice, etc).
YeGoblynQueenne 5y ago
I had to look up "additive rythm", eager for a (hopefully not too painful) mind expansion but I couldn't understand the explanation in wikipedia until my friend aksed "what, like kalamatianos?" (3/8 + 2/8 + 2/8 = 7/8). And then we had a big fight because she kept saying "so what, where's the difference"? :) Morale of the story: it's not just western music that's deeply ingrained into western peoples' minds. It goes the other way too.
- jedimastert 5y ago
  From what I'm seeing yes, although it does go further. Imagine where every bar was a different length while still keeping a pulse. One might be 3+2+2 then 4+3 then 2+3+2+3 and so on.
  - the_gipsy 5y ago
    Maybe I’m totally off here, because I don’t really know that much about music theory. But I think this is exactly what happens in Flamenco. A Bulería song/performance has 12 beats, mostly 6/8+3/4, accented on 3, 6, 8, 10, 12. The chord changes on 3 and 10. The accents can change to literally anything, deviating from the 6/8+3/4, spanning multiple bars. As long as the chord change is there, or the 10th is heavily accented with a stop, when done. Because the chord change is asymmetrical, it never really feels like “just 3/4” or whatever is happening rhythmically. It’s like a meta game to outwit each other, but always finding the common ground immediately.
  - YeGoblynQueenne 5y ago
    Aye, zeibekiko is the most characteristic example I know of that: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeibekiko https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeibekiko It's 9/8s in uneven splits, but it's difficult to break it down without showing you (by tapping my hand!). The wikipedia page has a couple of different analyses. The stuff that really messes with my brain is Greek Pontiac dances like dipat, like this one: https://youtu.be/tTZDVKMZOrk https://youtu.be/tTZDVKMZOrk I don't even know what the rythm is for that. Me and my friend keep trying to count it and failing and dissolving in giggles because we just can. not. comprehend it. (I got halfway to a modern drums diploma and my friend has studied classic guitar for ages. So much for that). Here's a modern vesrion with more prominent percussion: https://youtu.be/EeCOl8gn-1A https://youtu.be/EeCOl8gn-1A Here's a different Pontiac dance, Kotsari: https://youtu.be/IhtBTr0Ip1k https://youtu.be/IhtBTr0Ip1k And here's a Baidushka from Eastern Thrace: https://youtu.be/etU9eqQJweg https://youtu.be/etU9eqQJweg Counting which are left as an exercise to the reader. Have fun and sorry for the nerd snipe :)

bsedlm 5y ago

https://sethares.engr.wisc.edu/prelude.html https://sethares.engr.wisc.edu/prelude.html this work claims that the 12 tones system (IMO not a scale) seems "universal" is in fact so widespread because of the timbres in the instruments used (i.e. the haromic spectrum of strings, wind instruments, and human voice, etc).

YeGoblynQueenne 5y ago

I had to look up "additive rythm", eager for a (hopefully not too painful) mind expansion but I couldn't understand the explanation in wikipedia until my friend aksed "what, like kalamatianos?" (3/8 + 2/8 + 2/8 = 7/8). And then we had a big fight because she kept saying "so what, where's the difference"? :) Morale of the story: it's not just western music that's deeply ingrained into western peoples' minds. It goes the other way too.

jedimastert 5y ago
From what I'm seeing yes, although it does go further. Imagine where every bar was a different length while still keeping a pulse. One might be 3+2+2 then 4+3 then 2+3+2+3 and so on.
- the_gipsy 5y ago
  Maybe I’m totally off here, because I don’t really know that much about music theory. But I think this is exactly what happens in Flamenco. A Bulería song/performance has 12 beats, mostly 6/8+3/4, accented on 3, 6, 8, 10, 12. The chord changes on 3 and 10. The accents can change to literally anything, deviating from the 6/8+3/4, spanning multiple bars. As long as the chord change is there, or the 10th is heavily accented with a stop, when done. Because the chord change is asymmetrical, it never really feels like “just 3/4” or whatever is happening rhythmically. It’s like a meta game to outwit each other, but always finding the common ground immediately.
- YeGoblynQueenne 5y ago
  Aye, zeibekiko is the most characteristic example I know of that: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeibekiko https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeibekiko It's 9/8s in uneven splits, but it's difficult to break it down without showing you (by tapping my hand!). The wikipedia page has a couple of different analyses. The stuff that really messes with my brain is Greek Pontiac dances like dipat, like this one: https://youtu.be/tTZDVKMZOrk https://youtu.be/tTZDVKMZOrk I don't even know what the rythm is for that. Me and my friend keep trying to count it and failing and dissolving in giggles because we just can. not. comprehend it. (I got halfway to a modern drums diploma and my friend has studied classic guitar for ages. So much for that). Here's a modern vesrion with more prominent percussion: https://youtu.be/EeCOl8gn-1A https://youtu.be/EeCOl8gn-1A Here's a different Pontiac dance, Kotsari: https://youtu.be/IhtBTr0Ip1k https://youtu.be/IhtBTr0Ip1k And here's a Baidushka from Eastern Thrace: https://youtu.be/etU9eqQJweg https://youtu.be/etU9eqQJweg Counting which are left as an exercise to the reader. Have fun and sorry for the nerd snipe :)