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I still don't understand how there isn't a market for a work _laptop_ with a display like this? - Longer battery life - easy on the eyes for long sessions rea
by DoingIsLearning 5y ago
I still don't understand how there isn't a market for a work _laptop_ with a display like this?
- Longer battery life
- easy on the eyes for long sessions reading/writing
- Allows me to actually work outside!!!
There is a huge market of people out there (Thinking about the typical ThinkPad users) that don't give 2 craps about color accuracy. We literally just want to read and write.
Anyone envolved in Product Management that can give some insights?
Is it too expensive?
Are there not enough users?
Are vendors scared of the lackluster of the device when compared with shinny reflective displays?
- Epa095 5y agoThe old OLPC laptop had a weird screen which kind of became a black and white e-ink screen when the brightness got turned all the way down, and was a quite normal colour screen otherwise. No clue how it was made though, and if there has been any further work in that direction.
- throw8932894 5y agoI work on a beach a lot. Laser printer costs $100 and paper is like 0.01 cents. Probably better usability. This thing is not hardened for outdoor use. I dont think it would work in cafe. If it drops on floor, liquids, sand, salty water....
- breakfastduck 5y agoNo one is going to sell a device that costs significantly more than any other for the same power to provide what 99% of users would consider a sub par/ unusable display. Like seriously can you imagine trying to sell a laptop that is unable to watch any media, play any games and has the refresh rate / perceived performance of a 15 year old tablet. This stuff isn't ready to be a 'main' display yet.
- JoelMcCracken 5y agohow does this criticism not apply to monitors or tablets, which boox already makes?
- DoingIsLearning 5y agoYeah, a lot of negative comments, from people coming up with all sorts of multimedia use cases, when there is clearly a market gap and plenty of people that want work houses without multimedia capability.
- JoelMcCracken 5y agoI would LOVE a laptop that ran linux well and had an eink screen. I'd buy it today.
- qaq 5y ago1% is 1.6 million units per year that's a billion dollar company
- ako 5y agoI doubt an lcd display in a laptop costs a vendor more than $10. So that would make it a 16 million dollar company. If a E-Ink display costs $100, it would still only be a 160 million dollar company...
- qaq 5y agoa good display is several hundred dollars. Market valuation does not equal to annual sales. A niche notebook like this can be sold at higher premium. The idea would be to offer notebook not the display.
- DoingIsLearning 5y ago> imagine trying to sell a laptop that is unable to - watch any kind of media - looks 'laggy' Imagine thinking that the consumer market is only for media consumers. There is a whole market of enterprise products out there, and there is certainly a use case for a _work_ laptop which needs no multimedia support. I wouldn't argue that someone buying this machine would only use only this machine. But I know I am not alone in saying that this would be my daily driver when focus is required.
- dugditches 5y agopatents if i recall. a netbook style, or even like old kindle keyboard sized up would be pleasant.
- salamandersauce 5y agoIt would be expensive and mouse cursors are not the most enjoyable with these things. You really have to crank the speed to use a mouse cursor without extreme frustration on eInk and that comes with a huge quality loss. I imagine most people need color for certain tasks even if it's not accurate like making a PowerPoint or something. For most people I think it would be more of a frustration than a help when running Windows. Boox and others like Boyue do make Android eInk tablets which are pretty flexible. You don't need a mouse either which solves that problem. Very good for reading PDFs. Termux and a good text editor like Emacs or Vim can let you get some work done.
- mdp2021 5y ago> mouse cursors Touchscreen and keyboard commands. I use those systems this way and efficacy is high. > You really have to crank the speed to use a mouse cursor ... and that comes with a huge quality loss You must mean, "use the A2 mode". Not really, on the contrary: on GU (Grayscale Update) they mouse cursor will leave a trail that can be more helpful than an annoyance.
- salamandersauce 5y agoYeah, I retried it directly connecting a mouse to my Note Air and it's better than I remember. I think before I tried a screen sharing app with it connected to a PC and maybe that's why I thought it was so bad.
- cassianoleal 5y agoTry reducing your screen's refresh rate to mimic that of an eInk display. Interacting with the machine becomes a horrible chore. Every input feels laggy and sluggish. It's hard to control the pointer. Even at 30Hz it becomes very difficult to focus on the actual tasks because the computer doesn't seem to respond to your commands.
- Ancapistani 5y agoWhat mouse? The use case I have for an EPD is entirely terminal-based.
- cassianoleal 5y agoThat's a fair use-case but I suspect it's a _very rare_ one, which probably answers the initial question: > how there isn't a market for a work _laptop_ with a display like this?
- nitrogen 5y agoHow many software developers and authors are there? Time was when 100,000 units a year was enough to make a highly successful company. When did we decide that only trillion dollar companies were worth considering? At that point we lose economies of scale and get into rent seeking. We'd all be much better off with a hundred $xxB companies than one or two $xT companies.
- cassianoleal 5y agoHow many developers and authors have a workflow that doesn't include a GUI with a pointer? I for one would not like to go back to terminal-only. There's a lot to be gained from decent graphical interfaces, and having them smooth makes working on them more pleasing, which reduces my stress and allows me to be more productive.
- nitrogen 5y ago
- baybal2 5y agoeInk Inc. levies giant patent royalties on eInk screen manufacturers. Plus There are no 8 bit eInk controllers
- BiteCode_dev 5y agoHard sell, but a laptop with a reversible 2-1 screen, one side OLED, and one e-ink, would probably be a winner. Or something like the framework laptop, but with a plugable/ unplaggable screen, and you switch as needed. I would buy one. Espacially on travel, where the prospect of working outside in nature, and having a one week battery life would be fantastic for work.
- mdp2021 5y ago> a laptop with a reversible 2-1 screen The Lenovo ThinkBook Plus has an E-Ink display on the outer side - but I think it remains an outer side.
- BiteCode_dev 5y agoYes, that's the deal breaker. If I can't type with the keyboard, or if I have to add some additional keyboard for mobility, it gets very cluncky.
- cestith 5y agoAt the same time, there have been so many convertible tablet/laptop systems that either have the pivot at the bottom center of the screen or less commonly a screen that turns over between two arms on the sides that it's hard to believe someone couldn't do the same with a two-sided screen enclosure.
- rexreed 5y agoI did that in the old days with a repurposed kindle.
- rini17 5y agoYou expect anything from a market that till very recently sold 768p displays and hdds?
- nhumrich 5y agoWhat you _can_ do, is buy the boox lumi, a 13 inch Android e-unk tablet. Then get a Bluetooth keyboard folio for it. You now essentially have a 13 inch laptop chromebook.
- Jeff_Brown 5y agoIf you just want it for reading, you could buy a $200 laptop and use this as an external display. If you're not running hot you could leave your laptop closed inside a backpack or case while you used it. Still kind of fiddly but it sounds good to me.
- 3pt14159 5y agoNo colour. I want an e-ink with syntax highlighting. This is great and all, but even 16 base colours would go a long, long way. Oh also, would be nice if it were built into a MBP and I could switch between monitor types quickly, but I know that's a pipedream.
- NoGravitas 5y agoI'm currently using (on a color LCD) a syntax highlighting theme that uses about 4 shades of gray, plus typographic differentiation. It would look fine on an e-ink screen.
- daneel_w 5y agoI don't understand your post. First you state that you don't understand how there isn't a market for a laptop using this screen, then you underline that there is a huge market out there (somehow "typical ThinkPad users", who apparently don't care about color or anything else, and just want to read and write), and then you ask why these things don't sell much and if the problem is that the device is lackluster compared to a normal cheap LCD display. Have you looked at these displays in use? They're slow, flickery, have low contrast, and cost absurd money. They're still desperately trying to crawl out of the "enthusiast / early adopter" stage. I really want one. Everyone really wants one. But nobody wants the overpriced rubbish the current generation is.
- patentatt 5y agoA lot of counterpoints here, how about a half normal display, half e-ink? Left side of the monitor is LCD m, and the right side is e-ink. Might be a bit cramped for some use cases, might work for others. Or, how about a rollable, flexible OLED that can dynamically roll out and cover more and more of the e-ink display, so that you could roll out the OLED when needed, or tuck it in when you want full e-ink?
- srmatto 5y agoI've read previously on HN that there's one company with a stranglehold on the e-ink patent and so the prices are artificially high for the screens. This probably would make a e-ink laptop or tablet more expensive than it should be. But yes, I agree. I've wanted an e-ink laptop for working outside for years.
- robinsoh 5y ago> I've read previously on HN that there's one company with a stranglehold on the e-ink patent and so the prices are artificially high for the screens. I wouldn't believe such extreme claims without any evidence. Please see my comment history for my repeated attempts to get to the bottom of this. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28740452#28746303 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28740452#28746303
- nitrogen 5y agoWe saw the same trajectory with high refresh rate displays. Back in the CRT days, you could set your display to 200+Hz on some monitors, 85Hz was common, and 72Hz was the minimum. At the same time, you had devices with reflective LCDs that worked outside. Then LCD monitors came along, and suddenly we went from 1600x1200@75Hz to 1280x1024@60Hz. Anyone who complained was placed in nutjob territory -- "you can't see more than 24fps", "human reaction time is over 100ms", "you're holding it wrong", etc. Then, finally, high refresh rates became common, because they are objectively and subjectively superior. Eink will go through a similar process of nerd shaming as the patents expire and new competitors emerge, but eventually outdoor capable displays will also become a normal, acceptable option.
- robinsoh 5y ago> Eink will go through a similar process of nerd shaming as the patents expire and new competitors emerge, but eventually outdoor capable displays will also become a normal, acceptable option. Which patents? How will any company get past G = τ / γ ? You do realize that in the last 30 years of development in electrophoretics, the update time has remained around 700ms right? Those who do better like Clearink do it by sacrificing bistability. Please see my comment history, eg: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28740452#28746303 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28740452#28746303 , for why I strongly doubt your claims. I don't see how your observations about LCD apply to electrophoresis, unless there's some new physics that you're describing.
- vzaliva 5y agoI would prefer a modular laptop where I can swap between OLED and liquid paper screens. Just snap another screen before going to work in a park.
- nitrogen 5y agoDoes the framework laptop have a modular display option?
- DoingIsLearning 5y agoNo I specifically ask this to one of the founders and the display is not customizable unlike the rest. You get the reflective non matte display and according there were no plans for a matte or EPD option.
- snthd 5y ago>Allows me to actually work outside!!! This can also be achieved with a transflective panel. Edit: Here's one retrofitted to a thinkpad. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HuegrU_kIq8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HuegrU_kIq8
- rrrrrrrrrrrryan 5y agoYeah, this is the real answer to the "outside" use case. Lots of fitness smartwatches have them, and they're awesome. Once you walk outside there's clearly a reduced color gamut, but other than that, everything else (fps, etc) remains the same, and the screen is perfectly usable. Can't wait until other niche mobile devices come out with this tech (tablets, phones, laptops).
- atlgator 5y agoThey could partner with framework to offer the one in their marketplace.
- gbraad 5y agoLenovo ThinkBook has an eink screen. Not exclusively, but works quite well.
- dreamcompiler 5y agoThe OLPC had a dual-mode display that worked great for reading both indoors and out. For some reason nobody has since picked up on this idea. http://www.olpcnews.com/hardware/screen/olpc_xo_resolution_display.html http://www.olpcnews.com/hardware/screen/olpc_xo_resolution_d...
- Tagbert 5y agoThe OLPC used a transflective LCD. Basically, the low power mode was a grayscale LCD with the backlight turned off. The background was a reflective surface that reflected enough light to give a, rather low contrast, image.
- officeplant 5y agoI really would love one of these for the 2D AutoCAD work I do which mostly involves electrical diagrams and 2D building layouts for fire / gas alarm systems. One of the main problems I see is the finite lifespan of an E-Ink display vs traditional monitors. Not to say the old 1440P TN displays I use at work will last forever, but I'm not sure an E-Ink display having to refresh constantly for 8 hours a day of work will hold up nearly as long.