52 ms·

What I really like about all these different threads and topics on COVID is the mastery of control that is shown. We have viable treatments that work and could

What I really like about all these different threads and topics on COVID is the mastery of control that is shown. We have viable treatments that work and could be prescribed en masse. Not discussed, not mentioned. The sole discussion topic is "vaccines" and mask theatre. Totally ignoring any inconvenient data about either. Everyone's focus is to tear each other apart about which level of destruction is best for the non-vaxed. They are the problem and need to be crushed. Just excellent demonstration of media control and emotional manipulation. Here we see the Germans following the leaders of human rights: China, Austria, Australia in preparing further legal frameworks to make the non-vaxed into non-people. Their futures will be fines, imprisonment and hopefully their lives permanently ruined. With cheers from the vaxxed. After this we will be imprisoning or maybe just hanging from lampposts those who don't get enough boosters. For the safety of the children.

lee 5y ago
> "We have viable treatments that work and could be prescribed en masse. Not discussed, not mentioned." Can you explicitly mention what those treatments are? I'm genuinely curious.
- jacobolus 5y ago
  There are various antiviral drugs which are orders of magnitude more expensive, have mediocre efficacy and a worse side effect profile compared to any of the main vaccines, and must be started within days of initial infection to work properly. They are a great addition (besides vaccines and non-pharmaceutical public health measures) for treating high-risk patients for whom the vaccines don’t provide perfect protection (e.g. the very elderly and immune compromised), but a poor primary response.
  - landemva 5y ago
    Ivermectin has anti-viral properties, has great multi-decade safety history, and is cheaper than a soda. It also has been shown to be an effective treatment when used early in disease.
    - wux 5y ago
      The Cochrane Reviews are regarded as one of the preeminent collections of systematic reviews in medicine. They conclude that “overall, the reliable evidence available does not support the use of ivermectin for treatment or prevention of COVID‐19 outside of well‐designed randomized trials.” https://www.cochranelibrary.com/cdsr/doi/10.1002/14651858.CD015017.pub2/full https://www.cochranelibrary.com/cdsr/doi/10.1002/14651858.CD... A similar conclusion regarding lack of evidence is discussed in NIH treatment guidelines: https://www.covid19treatmentguidelines.nih.gov/therapies/antiviral-therapy/ivermectin/ https://www.covid19treatmentguidelines.nih.gov/therapies/ant... In line with consensus in the field, ivermectin is not contained among the treatment guidelines of any institution at which I have practiced.
      - TheSpiceIsLife 5y ago
        The Cochrane Collaboration can be safely disregarded by those who’s beliefs do not align with it’s reviews. <overly dramatic eye roll>
    - pcwalton 5y ago
      We just had an article about this. I am loath to link to Scott Alexander, but it's the most likely thing to persuade HN users. https://astralcodexten.substack.com/p/ivermectin-much-more-than-you-wanted https://astralcodexten.substack.com/p/ivermectin-much-more-t...
      - smnrchrds 5y ago
        How come? Why do you loath to link to his writings?
      - honkdaddy 5y ago
        Why point out that you loathe someone before linking their work? What an odd, pompous thing to say.
        jacobolus 5y ago
        loath ≠ loathe loath is an adjective meaning reluctant. loathe is a verb meaning disgust/hate.
- thedream 5y ago
  Sunlight, Vitamin D, turning off the TV
- passing_by_and 5y ago
  We have excellent outcomes with monoclonal antibody-based drugs (the expensive route). Monoclonal is interesting because we may be able to take it preemptively. We have excellent results with steroids, vitamins, weight loss and exercise (low cost). One way to search (and ignore random people like myself) for this, is to look for different countries treatment protocols (they are often published into other languages). There is a lot of serious people working hard trying to find good solutions.
- m4rtink 5y ago
  The anti-covid pill from Pfizer looks impressive: https://www.science.org/content/blog-post/pfizer-s-good-news-world-s-good-news https://www.science.org/content/blog-post/pfizer-s-good-news...
  - SV_BubbleTime 5y ago
    I thought I remember reading something early on about protease inhibitors and COVID, cool to see that is coming out now.
- nradov 5y ago
  Here are the latest COVID-19 treatment guidelines. They are very effective in preventing deaths when applied early and aggressively. Unfortunately many patients wait too long before seeking care, and many physicians still don't follow the protocol. https://www.covid19treatmentguidelines.nih.gov/about-the-guidelines/whats-new/ https://www.covid19treatmentguidelines.nih.gov/about-the-gui...
tasogare 5y ago
We are in the worst timeline. At first I didn't had too much anger again the people willing to take part in the phase III trial, they were mostly just a SNS annoyance with their virtue signaling. Their choice, my choice. Now they're writing literal hateful messages all over the internet about people like me who made an informed choice but moreover fully supports authoritarian measures that are taken just to fuck with people. A government role is supposedly to help people, not to ruin their lives. Not to mention the huge toll on social relations and mental health of the population. It's since a long time since the covid question is not a health issue anymore, it's an excuse. The most infuriating things is how dumb the arguments of those people are, because if their vaccine were working they would be protected anyway and won't have to fear anything (also remember when 70% vaccinated was supposed to grant herd immunity? This have been memoryholed hard as well). It makes no fucking sense to push it to people under 30 who have like a chance over 300,000 to die from covid.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- manwe150 5y ago
  You mention ‘informed’, but are you aware of the delta variant and that scientists sometimes learn new things?
lmilcin 5y ago
> We have viable treatments that work and could be prescribed en masse. Not discussed, not mentioned. Because the real problem are going to be people that will be far too sick for any treatment to help them avoid hospitalisation. And overloaded hospitals will not benefit a lot from the fact there is some treatment available. The system will benefit much more from people not requiring hospitalisation in the first place, and currently that can only be achieved by having a large percentage of population vaccinated.
- passing_by_and 5y ago
  You have a good point, thank you for stating it clearly. My contention here is that instead of promoting treatment steps, and working towards helping each other we are tearing each other apart and the discussion is oriented completely wrong. Punishing people, fines?
- nradov 5y ago
  I encourage everyone eligible to protect themselves by getting vaccinated. However the monoclonal antibody treatments are given on an outpatient basis and are highly effective at preventing hospitalization.
  - lmilcin 5y ago
    They do help, but you need give it early enough. Most unvaccinated patients do not seek help until they are clearly more sick than a normal flu. They wait until they have trouble breathing. And at that time it is already very likely they are going to be hospitalized anyway. They might react better with antibody treatment but they are still going to have to be admitted. Whereas vaccine does not need to be given at exactly right time to be effective.
  - stjohnswarts 5y ago
    Not an option for many americans that can't afford insurance. vaccines are free and more effective.
    - 5y ago
Jansen312 5y ago
The issue here is really cost to public. Non vaccinated has high chance to get severe complication when infected. They will utilize hospitals and healthcare whether public or private. For private, we can choose to ignore as the price will adjust by themselves to determine who lives and who dies. Nobody will bat an eye if a high-end boutique clinic let a poor Covid patient dies because bed and ventilator is too expensive. However it is expected hospitals must admit these patients and cure/care them whether they can pay or not. For public healthcare, this will turn into ethics and politics issue because government "killed" them by refusing "universal human rights" healthcare to them. The easier way to solve this outcome is basically mandating vaccines which will reduce the loads on healthcare and hence general public cost. The correct thing to do on the other hand is to force all non vaccinated to sign away universal healthcare for Covid. They will bear the full cost and can be turn away from hospitals to die if hospitals have little beds, prioritized over vaccinated and if they too poor to pay full unsubsidized cost. No western countries leader will dare to implement the "correct way" even if non vaccinated wants to. And to top it all, many non vaccinated understood this is the correct way but still want government to cover their just-in-case severe complication hospital bills for free or extremely heavily subsidized bills. Basically a lot of non vaccinated wants to eat the cake and still have the cake. This is the actual situation now. And no media wants to discuss about it publicly. MSM probably have no appetite to discuss intelligently these days anyway.
- errantmind 5y ago
  Sure, as long as people who eat excessively, smoke cigarettes, drink alcohol, etc. also sign away their healthcare. Why should we enable their bad decisions?
  - nicbou 5y ago
    Those things don't infect others.
    - walkhour 5y ago
      The argument being addressed is that unvaccinated COVID pacients are not different from some of the other pacients. You're changing the argument for which there is a different reply
stjohnswarts 5y ago
When you're essentially killing other people you've stepped outside of your my body, my choice parameters unless you also agree to stay home and not be a disease vector. You don't have the right to give me, my kids, my wife, or my family covid when a simple safe and effective vaccine is available.
- nradov 5y ago
  I encourage everyone eligible to get vaccinated, but vaccinated people are also disease vectors. You and your family will all be exposed to the virus occasionally. This is inevitable. https://www.businessinsider.com/delta-variant-made-herd-immunity-not-possible-astrazeneca-developer-2021-8?r=US&IR=T https://www.businessinsider.com/delta-variant-made-herd-immu...
- hncurious 5y ago
  I keep seeing this repeated. Why do so many people still think leaky vaccines prevent transmission?
- TheRealNGenius 5y ago
  You aren't "essentially killing other people". This is shifting the blame of the virus onto people. Vaccinated people can still transmit the virus. Yet you don't blame them. I don't have the right to give you covid, nor do I want that right. But it may or may not happen regardless of whether I am or am not vaccinated. Similarly, you don't have the right to tell anyone what to inject into their own body. If you want it, then inject yourself with it, as many people have. How would you feel if I forcefully injected you with a "vaccine" that prevents all imaginable diseases? Or one that keeps you in peak physical condition for as long as you live? One that makes you immortal? I take it that you would be rather open to the idea considering those things seem desirable...
- FearNotDaniel 5y ago
  The irony about using "my body, my choice" in this context is that the very phrase is constructed to justify the killing of another person, by conveniently pretending that the other person doesn't yet exist.
wildoats 5y ago
This is a bit hyperbolic. Wide scale COVID vaccination is needed for a functioning society. It's clear that waves of death won't stop without it. Especially now with Omicron, the fourth wave. In the US, average life expectancy dropped more than 1.5 years in 2020-2021. More than any year since WWII. Right now, COVID vaccine is more important than wearing clothes in public. And being naked in public checks more of your boxes for making you a non-person than nonvax restrictions. Being naked in public you go straight to jail. So is forced wearing of clothes even more authoritarian than nonvax restrictions? Well, no. Neither are authoritarian because they're both needed for a functioning society. Unvaccined are a literal danger to the public with how contagious and deadly COVID is. If you don't want to wear clothes or be vaccinated that's fine. But expect to be pushed to the edges and marginalized for not following basic requirements for a functioning society.
footlose_3815 5y ago
[flagged]

lee 5y ago

> "We have viable treatments that work and could be prescribed en masse. Not discussed, not mentioned." Can you explicitly mention what those treatments are? I'm genuinely curious.

jacobolus 5y ago
There are various antiviral drugs which are orders of magnitude more expensive, have mediocre efficacy and a worse side effect profile compared to any of the main vaccines, and must be started within days of initial infection to work properly. They are a great addition (besides vaccines and non-pharmaceutical public health measures) for treating high-risk patients for whom the vaccines don’t provide perfect protection (e.g. the very elderly and immune compromised), but a poor primary response.
- landemva 5y ago
  Ivermectin has anti-viral properties, has great multi-decade safety history, and is cheaper than a soda. It also has been shown to be an effective treatment when used early in disease.
  - wux 5y ago
    The Cochrane Reviews are regarded as one of the preeminent collections of systematic reviews in medicine. They conclude that “overall, the reliable evidence available does not support the use of ivermectin for treatment or prevention of COVID‐19 outside of well‐designed randomized trials.” https://www.cochranelibrary.com/cdsr/doi/10.1002/14651858.CD015017.pub2/full https://www.cochranelibrary.com/cdsr/doi/10.1002/14651858.CD... A similar conclusion regarding lack of evidence is discussed in NIH treatment guidelines: https://www.covid19treatmentguidelines.nih.gov/therapies/antiviral-therapy/ivermectin/ https://www.covid19treatmentguidelines.nih.gov/therapies/ant... In line with consensus in the field, ivermectin is not contained among the treatment guidelines of any institution at which I have practiced.
    - TheSpiceIsLife 5y ago
      The Cochrane Collaboration can be safely disregarded by those who’s beliefs do not align with it’s reviews. <overly dramatic eye roll>
  - pcwalton 5y ago
    We just had an article about this. I am loath to link to Scott Alexander, but it's the most likely thing to persuade HN users. https://astralcodexten.substack.com/p/ivermectin-much-more-than-you-wanted https://astralcodexten.substack.com/p/ivermectin-much-more-t...
    - smnrchrds 5y ago
      How come? Why do you loath to link to his writings?
    - honkdaddy 5y ago
      Why point out that you loathe someone before linking their work? What an odd, pompous thing to say.
      - jacobolus 5y ago
        loath ≠ loathe loath is an adjective meaning reluctant. loathe is a verb meaning disgust/hate.
thedream 5y ago
Sunlight, Vitamin D, turning off the TV
passing_by_and 5y ago
We have excellent outcomes with monoclonal antibody-based drugs (the expensive route). Monoclonal is interesting because we may be able to take it preemptively. We have excellent results with steroids, vitamins, weight loss and exercise (low cost). One way to search (and ignore random people like myself) for this, is to look for different countries treatment protocols (they are often published into other languages). There is a lot of serious people working hard trying to find good solutions.
m4rtink 5y ago
The anti-covid pill from Pfizer looks impressive: https://www.science.org/content/blog-post/pfizer-s-good-news-world-s-good-news https://www.science.org/content/blog-post/pfizer-s-good-news...
- SV_BubbleTime 5y ago
  I thought I remember reading something early on about protease inhibitors and COVID, cool to see that is coming out now.
nradov 5y ago
Here are the latest COVID-19 treatment guidelines. They are very effective in preventing deaths when applied early and aggressively. Unfortunately many patients wait too long before seeking care, and many physicians still don't follow the protocol. https://www.covid19treatmentguidelines.nih.gov/about-the-guidelines/whats-new/ https://www.covid19treatmentguidelines.nih.gov/about-the-gui...

tasogare 5y ago

We are in the worst timeline. At first I didn't had too much anger again the people willing to take part in the phase III trial, they were mostly just a SNS annoyance with their virtue signaling. Their choice, my choice. Now they're writing literal hateful messages all over the internet about people like me who made an informed choice but moreover fully supports authoritarian measures that are taken just to fuck with people. A government role is supposedly to help people, not to ruin their lives. Not to mention the huge toll on social relations and mental health of the population. It's since a long time since the covid question is not a health issue anymore, it's an excuse. The most infuriating things is how dumb the arguments of those people are, because if their vaccine were working they would be protected anyway and won't have to fear anything (also remember when 70% vaccinated was supposed to grant herd immunity? This have been memoryholed hard as well). It makes no fucking sense to push it to people under 30 who have like a chance over 300,000 to die from covid.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
manwe150 5y ago
You mention ‘informed’, but are you aware of the delta variant and that scientists sometimes learn new things?

lmilcin 5y ago

> We have viable treatments that work and could be prescribed en masse. Not discussed, not mentioned. Because the real problem are going to be people that will be far too sick for any treatment to help them avoid hospitalisation. And overloaded hospitals will not benefit a lot from the fact there is some treatment available. The system will benefit much more from people not requiring hospitalisation in the first place, and currently that can only be achieved by having a large percentage of population vaccinated.

passing_by_and 5y ago
You have a good point, thank you for stating it clearly. My contention here is that instead of promoting treatment steps, and working towards helping each other we are tearing each other apart and the discussion is oriented completely wrong. Punishing people, fines?
nradov 5y ago
I encourage everyone eligible to protect themselves by getting vaccinated. However the monoclonal antibody treatments are given on an outpatient basis and are highly effective at preventing hospitalization.
- lmilcin 5y ago
  They do help, but you need give it early enough. Most unvaccinated patients do not seek help until they are clearly more sick than a normal flu. They wait until they have trouble breathing. And at that time it is already very likely they are going to be hospitalized anyway. They might react better with antibody treatment but they are still going to have to be admitted. Whereas vaccine does not need to be given at exactly right time to be effective.
- stjohnswarts 5y ago
  Not an option for many americans that can't afford insurance. vaccines are free and more effective.
  - 5y ago

Jansen312 5y ago

The issue here is really cost to public. Non vaccinated has high chance to get severe complication when infected. They will utilize hospitals and healthcare whether public or private. For private, we can choose to ignore as the price will adjust by themselves to determine who lives and who dies. Nobody will bat an eye if a high-end boutique clinic let a poor Covid patient dies because bed and ventilator is too expensive. However it is expected hospitals must admit these patients and cure/care them whether they can pay or not. For public healthcare, this will turn into ethics and politics issue because government "killed" them by refusing "universal human rights" healthcare to them. The easier way to solve this outcome is basically mandating vaccines which will reduce the loads on healthcare and hence general public cost. The correct thing to do on the other hand is to force all non vaccinated to sign away universal healthcare for Covid. They will bear the full cost and can be turn away from hospitals to die if hospitals have little beds, prioritized over vaccinated and if they too poor to pay full unsubsidized cost. No western countries leader will dare to implement the "correct way" even if non vaccinated wants to. And to top it all, many non vaccinated understood this is the correct way but still want government to cover their just-in-case severe complication hospital bills for free or extremely heavily subsidized bills. Basically a lot of non vaccinated wants to eat the cake and still have the cake. This is the actual situation now. And no media wants to discuss about it publicly. MSM probably have no appetite to discuss intelligently these days anyway.

errantmind 5y ago
Sure, as long as people who eat excessively, smoke cigarettes, drink alcohol, etc. also sign away their healthcare. Why should we enable their bad decisions?
- nicbou 5y ago
  Those things don't infect others.
  - walkhour 5y ago
    The argument being addressed is that unvaccinated COVID pacients are not different from some of the other pacients. You're changing the argument for which there is a different reply

stjohnswarts 5y ago

When you're essentially killing other people you've stepped outside of your my body, my choice parameters unless you also agree to stay home and not be a disease vector. You don't have the right to give me, my kids, my wife, or my family covid when a simple safe and effective vaccine is available.

nradov 5y ago
I encourage everyone eligible to get vaccinated, but vaccinated people are also disease vectors. You and your family will all be exposed to the virus occasionally. This is inevitable. https://www.businessinsider.com/delta-variant-made-herd-immunity-not-possible-astrazeneca-developer-2021-8?r=US&IR=T https://www.businessinsider.com/delta-variant-made-herd-immu...
hncurious 5y ago
I keep seeing this repeated. Why do so many people still think leaky vaccines prevent transmission?
TheRealNGenius 5y ago
You aren't "essentially killing other people". This is shifting the blame of the virus onto people. Vaccinated people can still transmit the virus. Yet you don't blame them. I don't have the right to give you covid, nor do I want that right. But it may or may not happen regardless of whether I am or am not vaccinated. Similarly, you don't have the right to tell anyone what to inject into their own body. If you want it, then inject yourself with it, as many people have. How would you feel if I forcefully injected you with a "vaccine" that prevents all imaginable diseases? Or one that keeps you in peak physical condition for as long as you live? One that makes you immortal? I take it that you would be rather open to the idea considering those things seem desirable...
FearNotDaniel 5y ago
The irony about using "my body, my choice" in this context is that the very phrase is constructed to justify the killing of another person, by conveniently pretending that the other person doesn't yet exist.

wildoats 5y ago

This is a bit hyperbolic. Wide scale COVID vaccination is needed for a functioning society. It's clear that waves of death won't stop without it. Especially now with Omicron, the fourth wave. In the US, average life expectancy dropped more than 1.5 years in 2020-2021. More than any year since WWII. Right now, COVID vaccine is more important than wearing clothes in public. And being naked in public checks more of your boxes for making you a non-person than nonvax restrictions. Being naked in public you go straight to jail. So is forced wearing of clothes even more authoritarian than nonvax restrictions? Well, no. Neither are authoritarian because they're both needed for a functioning society. Unvaccined are a literal danger to the public with how contagious and deadly COVID is. If you don't want to wear clothes or be vaccinated that's fine. But expect to be pushed to the edges and marginalized for not following basic requirements for a functioning society.

footlose_3815 5y ago

[flagged]