3 ms·

It is mentioned enough by the media. Thank you. But it seems strange to realize that people don't want to do a job where you have to watch people die like flie

by oezi 5y ago

It is mentioned enough by the media. Thank you. But it seems strange to realize that people don't want to do a job where you have to watch people die like flies over the course of two to three weeks. No money in the world makes that acceptable for many. With the availability of the vaccines (at least in the developed world) this has become a pandemic of the uninformed know-it-alls ("Querdenker" = Crooked thinker, as they are call here). If you work on an ICU to rescue people that tell you that this is all a scam by the Pharma-Industrial Complex, you would want to quit. It is not the media's fault where we are now, nor are the politicians (entirely) to blame. At least half the blame should be frankly put on social media disinformation and the usual tabloid press (Springer/Bild) that fabricate Fox-News style lies.

ipaddr 5y ago
More money and better shifts and not firing unvaccinated would fill the gap.
- burntbridge 5y ago
  You can't have people who are not vaccinated working at a hospital. This has been known for years and has been practiced for years. Vaccinations prevent the spread of disease. Surely you aren't questioning this.
  - ipaddr 5y ago
    Before the vaccine (less than a year ago) they prevented the spread by using n95 masks and ppe. Knowing that the vaccine doesn't prevent the person from getting and spreading covid. Knowing that the point of the vaccine is to prevent serious illness in the person receiving it. I struggle to understand why you would not even question how important they are in that setting unless you are worried they have dropped that extra safety component.
    - burntbridge 5y ago
      >Knowing that the vaccine doesn't prevent the person from getting and spreading covid. Vaccines reduce the risk of spreading the virus. People who are vaccinated are less likely to get seriously ill. This absolutely doesn't mean you won't die if you are vaccinated. Think seat belts in car accidents. It is all about reducing risk. On mass, at population levels, this means ICU have capacity to take in other seriously ill people. If ICUs are full and there is a plane crash or whatever where many people are seriously injured we are screwed.
      - ipaddr 5y ago
        People who get vaccinated are less likely to get seriously ill. Seriously ill people withdraw from society. Those with mild illness continue to go out into society and increasing the spread. You could make the point that increasing the spread when everyone is protected is fine but that allows for increased mutations.
    - _djo_ 5y ago
      No, they really didn't. Healthcare workers got COVID in large numbers, causing severe absenteeism, a number of deaths, and many with ongoing Long Covid conditions. It's part of the reason that bed capacity has been so difficult to keep constant or increase.
  - disambiguation 5y ago
    > You can't have people who are not vaccinated working at a hospital. Except for all of 2020. and this? https://www.kff.org/other/state-indicator/flu-vaccine-requirements-for-health-care-workers-in-hospitals-and-long-term-care-facilities/?currentTimeframe=0&sortModel=%7B%22colId%22:%22Location%22,%22sort%22:%22asc%22%7D https://www.kff.org/other/state-indicator/flu-vaccine-requir...
  - mensetmanusman 5y ago
    At some point there are diminishing returns. Eg if you fire everyone then more people will die because there is no hospital.
belorn 5y ago
If the problem in Germany is anything like in Sweden, then the issue is not that "people don't want to do a job where you have to watch people die". It is 100% a lack of funding and poor management. In the last 20 years the standard "joke" (ha ha, only true) about the universal health system is that you need to be in good health in order to have enough energy to fight for your right to get help. The health care debt was an all time high at the start of the pandemic, and has since sky rocketed. The faults are many. Poor wages has create many empty seats at the university programs. A lack of available personal has created a demand for labour hire employees, creating a system where many are moving to those in order to get pay rises, furthering increasing the cut that the middle men takes. An sharp increase in populations has increased demand, without any corresponding supply or funding. Employees has had an increase in paper work, with technology solutions that has caused additional work rather than optimized the work flow. Those same technology solutions has also been expensive to the point of corruptions, with some deals being actually corruptions that gone to court. The situation is so bad that my own health clinic is sending every patient that calls them on non-mondays to the emergency department, as they are by law required to redirect the patient somewhere and all their own doctors are booked for the rest of the week, a pattern that been going on every week for the last year. Vacations has been removed as an emergency decision at many hospitals, and in one case the "compensation" for lost summer vacation was a fruit basket. The expected time frame to raise the standard and actually train enough workers, as calculated by researchers a few years ago, was (if I remember right) somewhere around 10-20 years into the future. One pre-panedmic solution was to encourage skilled immigration directly from hospitals of nearby countries, a fix that obviously is not going to work now. If Germany is anywhere similar, then the blame isn't disinformation. It is systemic problem that has existed for decades and is now being pushed to over the edge.
- m_fayer 5y ago
  I'm in a Berlin medtech company closely related to GPs and have multiple other connections to area hospitals. From this perspective I would say everything you've said is entirely accurate for at least this part of Germany, if not the whole country. It's really a shockingly well kept secret, especially to the outside world. Much like the utterly dysfunctional rail system. Before the pandemic, I would have said that the country's healthcare system was about a decade away from resource-crisis. Now, it may have already started. I'm terrified of ending up in a hospital, even if there's no covid-wave ongoing. I do not want my life in the hands of the overworked traumatized remnants. The way this country treats healthcare workers is shameful.
m4rtink 5y ago
It's quite interesting that the main tabloid here in Czech Republic is doing very solid covid reporting - still kinda in the personal stories people can relate tabloids do - just this time telling stories of people severely ill with covid, mostly unvaccinated or interviews with medical personnel about what their hell looks like. Frankly I did not expect that from them and I'm sincerely hoping it helps at least someone to stop believing in bullshit.
raxxorrax 5y ago
This is seeking someone to blame honestly, those "Querdenker" didn't influence anything else but themselves. The truth is we always had a form of triage in emergency admission rooms even before the pandemic. Media and politics are way more responsible than the craziest idiot.

by oezi 5y ago

ipaddr 5y ago

More money and better shifts and not firing unvaccinated would fill the gap.

burntbridge 5y ago
You can't have people who are not vaccinated working at a hospital. This has been known for years and has been practiced for years. Vaccinations prevent the spread of disease. Surely you aren't questioning this.
- ipaddr 5y ago
  Before the vaccine (less than a year ago) they prevented the spread by using n95 masks and ppe. Knowing that the vaccine doesn't prevent the person from getting and spreading covid. Knowing that the point of the vaccine is to prevent serious illness in the person receiving it. I struggle to understand why you would not even question how important they are in that setting unless you are worried they have dropped that extra safety component.
  - burntbridge 5y ago
    >Knowing that the vaccine doesn't prevent the person from getting and spreading covid. Vaccines reduce the risk of spreading the virus. People who are vaccinated are less likely to get seriously ill. This absolutely doesn't mean you won't die if you are vaccinated. Think seat belts in car accidents. It is all about reducing risk. On mass, at population levels, this means ICU have capacity to take in other seriously ill people. If ICUs are full and there is a plane crash or whatever where many people are seriously injured we are screwed.
    - ipaddr 5y ago
      People who get vaccinated are less likely to get seriously ill. Seriously ill people withdraw from society. Those with mild illness continue to go out into society and increasing the spread. You could make the point that increasing the spread when everyone is protected is fine but that allows for increased mutations.
  - _djo_ 5y ago
    No, they really didn't. Healthcare workers got COVID in large numbers, causing severe absenteeism, a number of deaths, and many with ongoing Long Covid conditions. It's part of the reason that bed capacity has been so difficult to keep constant or increase.
- disambiguation 5y ago
  > You can't have people who are not vaccinated working at a hospital. Except for all of 2020. and this? https://www.kff.org/other/state-indicator/flu-vaccine-requirements-for-health-care-workers-in-hospitals-and-long-term-care-facilities/?currentTimeframe=0&sortModel=%7B%22colId%22:%22Location%22,%22sort%22:%22asc%22%7D https://www.kff.org/other/state-indicator/flu-vaccine-requir...
- mensetmanusman 5y ago
  At some point there are diminishing returns. Eg if you fire everyone then more people will die because there is no hospital.

belorn 5y ago

If the problem in Germany is anything like in Sweden, then the issue is not that "people don't want to do a job where you have to watch people die". It is 100% a lack of funding and poor management. In the last 20 years the standard "joke" (ha ha, only true) about the universal health system is that you need to be in good health in order to have enough energy to fight for your right to get help. The health care debt was an all time high at the start of the pandemic, and has since sky rocketed. The faults are many. Poor wages has create many empty seats at the university programs. A lack of available personal has created a demand for labour hire employees, creating a system where many are moving to those in order to get pay rises, furthering increasing the cut that the middle men takes. An sharp increase in populations has increased demand, without any corresponding supply or funding. Employees has had an increase in paper work, with technology solutions that has caused additional work rather than optimized the work flow. Those same technology solutions has also been expensive to the point of corruptions, with some deals being actually corruptions that gone to court. The situation is so bad that my own health clinic is sending every patient that calls them on non-mondays to the emergency department, as they are by law required to redirect the patient somewhere and all their own doctors are booked for the rest of the week, a pattern that been going on every week for the last year. Vacations has been removed as an emergency decision at many hospitals, and in one case the "compensation" for lost summer vacation was a fruit basket. The expected time frame to raise the standard and actually train enough workers, as calculated by researchers a few years ago, was (if I remember right) somewhere around 10-20 years into the future. One pre-panedmic solution was to encourage skilled immigration directly from hospitals of nearby countries, a fix that obviously is not going to work now. If Germany is anywhere similar, then the blame isn't disinformation. It is systemic problem that has existed for decades and is now being pushed to over the edge.

m_fayer 5y ago
I'm in a Berlin medtech company closely related to GPs and have multiple other connections to area hospitals. From this perspective I would say everything you've said is entirely accurate for at least this part of Germany, if not the whole country. It's really a shockingly well kept secret, especially to the outside world. Much like the utterly dysfunctional rail system. Before the pandemic, I would have said that the country's healthcare system was about a decade away from resource-crisis. Now, it may have already started. I'm terrified of ending up in a hospital, even if there's no covid-wave ongoing. I do not want my life in the hands of the overworked traumatized remnants. The way this country treats healthcare workers is shameful.

m4rtink 5y ago

It's quite interesting that the main tabloid here in Czech Republic is doing very solid covid reporting - still kinda in the personal stories people can relate tabloids do - just this time telling stories of people severely ill with covid, mostly unvaccinated or interviews with medical personnel about what their hell looks like. Frankly I did not expect that from them and I'm sincerely hoping it helps at least someone to stop believing in bullshit.

raxxorrax 5y ago

This is seeking someone to blame honestly, those "Querdenker" didn't influence anything else but themselves. The truth is we always had a form of triage in emergency admission rooms even before the pandemic. Media and politics are way more responsible than the craziest idiot.