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> Linux has been making progress but still isn't a good alternative for the common user unless they have an expert to rely upon when something breaks down IME

> Linux has been making progress but still isn't a good alternative for the common user unless they have an expert to rely upon when something breaks down IME "common users" already rely on an expert when their Windows OS breaks down. Not long ago I had to walk my aunt through opening the command prompt in Windows 10 and entering the command to do a full reboot (as opposed to that hybrid shutdown+hibernation) because for some reason i couldn't really figure out from the phone the WiFi stopped working even after shutdown/reboots (she shuts her computer down whenever she isn't using it and she called me after not having connection for days). I remembered reading at some point that normally in Win10 the kernel doesn't shutdown fully but instead hibernates and my guess was that the WiFi driver somehow got in a state that didn't let it work and instead of restarting at reboot it was getting hibernated so i tried to do a full reboot. Which worked, though it could have also been something else that happened to get unstuck after the full reboot - at some other time she also had the entire taskbar get frozen and that would persist normal reboots (via alt+f4 and selecting to reboot) which was also "fixed" by that full reboot (she has the steps and commands to type written in a piece of paper by now :-P). Not to mention the myriad of issues encountered due to forced updates. I think that the whole "Windows is good for common users" idea is very outdated nowadays, it might have been the case a decade or so ago, but it certainly isn't anymore.

Dylan16807 5y ago
If Windows says "restart" that should always mean a full reboot as far as I know. I usually disable fast startup, and it sounds like she should disable it too. Whoever set it up so that you have to reboot to shut down should have realized that the way they were implementing this was a bad idea.
- badsectoracula 5y ago
  > If Windows says "restart" that should always mean a full reboot as far as I know. That is what i expected but it doesn't seem to work that way and i had issues myself with it with other things, like e.g. some older games use the system timer (which is reset at full shutdown) for their animations but if the timer is a large number the animations and movement might break. This wasn't much of an issue back when most PCs were shut down every day as it would reset the timer, but nowadays the timer state persists after reboots - it was what actually prompted me to figure out how to reboot the PC from the command line as that does a full reboot. It might be a bug that persisted for a long time or some intentional feature, but either way it is something i've experienced on my PCs and for that reason i have a small shortcut that calls 'shutdown' with the parameters for a full reboot.
whakim 5y ago
> I think that the whole "Windows is good for common users" idea is very outdated nowadays, it might have been the case a decade or so ago, but it certainly isn't anymore. I agree with you, but I think that "for common users" pretty much all OSes are interchangeable these days anyways. The biggest headache for most folks isn't the occasional need to resort to an expert (which they'd always have to do), but the unnecessary headache of learning the quirks of a different OS. Easier to just stick with what you know, which is usually Windows.
armchairhacker 5y ago
In my experience the real issue with Linux is that it’s hard to set up. Especially when you have/get an OS preinstalled with Windows, to just using Windows. And that most applications / drivers don’t support it nearly as well. There are many many distributions. When I started Linux, I first tried Ubuntu because that was recommended to me. Ubuntu is installed with Xfce which looks and basically is clunky and outdated. Setting up WiFi was a PITA because my laptop doesn’t even have an ethernet port, and i couldn’t do much else without wifi. I had to configure some stuff via the command line because there were no settings for it, and install a new trackpad driver. Eventually I gave up Ubuntu because it was too hard to use with my trackpad. Later on I installed Debian which IMO should be recommended. But i couldn’t properly install regular Debian. After some research I had to install “nonfree” Debian from some confusing site, because my computer needs a nonfree Wifi driver (again, no Ethernet port). Setting up Wifi was an even harder PITA. At least Debian was usable and had good trackpad support once I set up. Plus I have to admit the graphics are way better than even macOS and Windows. It’s also very noticeably faster than macOS, running the same programs. But actually installing it wasn’t easy.
- nyuszika7h 5y ago
  > Ubuntu is installed with Xfce Ubuntu's default desktop environment is GNOME (or Unity in some earlier versions). You must be thinking of Xubuntu.
- badsectoracula 5y ago
  Well yeah, but i wouldn't expect a "normal user" to (re)install Windows either, so if they end up with Linux it would be because they either bought a computer with it preinstalled or someone else installed it for them.
- stragies 5y ago
  For the last 10+ years my Debian-install routine for devices is: - `dd` the latest Debian netinst onto some old, small on-desk USB-stick, - Insert USB-stick into target device, power on, get to boot-selection screen. - Hook up my phone via USB to target, set it to USB-tethering mode (To bypass initial (wifi-)firmware issue(s)) - NOW press ENTER in the boot-device selection screen. - Select Expert mode in the Installer Menu, this enables: - Selection of "non-free" package source - Enable backported software - Select minimal install (get the rest after Ethernet/Wifi Firmware is installed) - Reboot, still using USB-tethering - Install needed firmwares: `apt-get install firmware-<TAB><TAB>` (choose correct one, or install many/all) - (optional, but recommended on devices younger than 2 years: Install backports kernel (currently 5.14): `apt-get install linux-image-amd64/bullseye-backports` - (Optional, but needed when batadv-meshing with Openwrt master on 5.10: install kernel from debian testing (5.15.x) , with command similar to above ^bullseye^testing (after adding testing source) - run tasksel, select "Default Desktop", or whatever you were planning to install anyway That is a "detour" of less than 10 minutes.
nyuszika7h 5y ago
> Not long ago I had to walk my aunt through opening the command prompt in Windows 10 and entering the command to do a full reboot (as opposed to that hybrid shutdown+hibernation) That's unnecessary, reboot will always skip Windows's "Fast Startup". It can be a bit unintuitive because back in the day people used to recommend a full shutdown+boot cycle instead of a reboot as it could fix more issues. But it makes some sense, because generally when you reboot it's either because of an update or issues that probably won't be resolved if the kernel is just hibernated rather than fully restarting.
- badsectoracula 5y ago
  As i wrote in another comment this is what i thought too but it doesn't turn out to be the case in practice.
jeroenhd 5y ago
My problem with Linux for end users is that Windows and Linux break down differently. When a Linux update fails (which can happen automatically; for example, Ubuntu 16 reserved a very small boot partition and upgrading it to the latest version leaves it with too little space to keep the normal amount of kernels available), you end up digging through files and configuration and terminal commands. This is different from Windows where you have four buttons to click, and if all of those fail, you either reinstall the entire OS or reverse engineer Microsoft's logic and directory structures. When Windows fails, the OS usually detects the issue and reverts all the work. Their self repair is excellent. Sure, Windows Update may be broken for a while and the forced restarts make the whole process annoying, but the system still works. Linux can easily leave the system unbootable while Windows has the necessary recovery options. Boot recovery and System Restore are some features that definitely improve Windows' stability. Timeshift with a CoW filesystem and some GRUB hooks can somewhat replicate the effect, but I haven't seen any distros enable all of those by default yet. For example: I enabled encryption in the installers of both Ubuntu and Manjaro and hibernation simply didn't work. I managed to make it work with some config tweaks on both, but out of the box my laptop simply shut down and lost all of my work when the battery got low. My laptop also had no sound, stuttery video and no working microphone because of missing drivers for Nvidia, Intel and Realtek chips. Udev rules broke sound every time I unplugged my HDMI drive or let it go to sleep. Windows sometimes breaks down because of shitty drivers, but I've never seen it happen this severely. This was probably all related to the manufacturer's decisions about board configuration, drivers, and other proprietary crap, but the end user doesn't care whose fault that is and neither should they.
- badsectoracula 5y ago
  The last time i had Linux break after an update was around 2015 with Arch, but that is a rolling distro and during a time when rolling distros weren't as stable as nowadays. Before that it was with Ubuntu in the late 2000s but that was with a full system upgrade that you have to explicitly do manually. I wouldn't expect a "fixed" version distro to break nowadays because of updates. Also FWIW openSUSE does provide recovery support[0] as it uses Btrfs snapshots before and after package installations and upgrades (as well as during some other events, including taking a snapshot periodically - these are deleted after a while or if they start taking too much space) and you can roll them back either manually or even boot from a snapshot in case something goes wrong. I haven't really had a need for it so i can't exactly tell you how useful that would be (or to compare it with Windows since i never used Windows' system restore either), but it does sound like it'd provide the same or at least very similar functionality. [0] https://doc.opensuse.org/documentation/leap/reference/html/book-reference/cha-snapper.html https://doc.opensuse.org/documentation/leap/reference/html/b...

Dylan16807 5y ago

If Windows says "restart" that should always mean a full reboot as far as I know. I usually disable fast startup, and it sounds like she should disable it too. Whoever set it up so that you have to reboot to shut down should have realized that the way they were implementing this was a bad idea.

badsectoracula 5y ago
> If Windows says "restart" that should always mean a full reboot as far as I know. That is what i expected but it doesn't seem to work that way and i had issues myself with it with other things, like e.g. some older games use the system timer (which is reset at full shutdown) for their animations but if the timer is a large number the animations and movement might break. This wasn't much of an issue back when most PCs were shut down every day as it would reset the timer, but nowadays the timer state persists after reboots - it was what actually prompted me to figure out how to reboot the PC from the command line as that does a full reboot. It might be a bug that persisted for a long time or some intentional feature, but either way it is something i've experienced on my PCs and for that reason i have a small shortcut that calls 'shutdown' with the parameters for a full reboot.

whakim 5y ago

> I think that the whole "Windows is good for common users" idea is very outdated nowadays, it might have been the case a decade or so ago, but it certainly isn't anymore. I agree with you, but I think that "for common users" pretty much all OSes are interchangeable these days anyways. The biggest headache for most folks isn't the occasional need to resort to an expert (which they'd always have to do), but the unnecessary headache of learning the quirks of a different OS. Easier to just stick with what you know, which is usually Windows.

armchairhacker 5y ago

In my experience the real issue with Linux is that it’s hard to set up. Especially when you have/get an OS preinstalled with Windows, to just using Windows. And that most applications / drivers don’t support it nearly as well. There are many many distributions. When I started Linux, I first tried Ubuntu because that was recommended to me. Ubuntu is installed with Xfce which looks and basically is clunky and outdated. Setting up WiFi was a PITA because my laptop doesn’t even have an ethernet port, and i couldn’t do much else without wifi. I had to configure some stuff via the command line because there were no settings for it, and install a new trackpad driver. Eventually I gave up Ubuntu because it was too hard to use with my trackpad. Later on I installed Debian which IMO should be recommended. But i couldn’t properly install regular Debian. After some research I had to install “nonfree” Debian from some confusing site, because my computer needs a nonfree Wifi driver (again, no Ethernet port). Setting up Wifi was an even harder PITA. At least Debian was usable and had good trackpad support once I set up. Plus I have to admit the graphics are way better than even macOS and Windows. It’s also very noticeably faster than macOS, running the same programs. But actually installing it wasn’t easy.

nyuszika7h 5y ago
> Ubuntu is installed with Xfce Ubuntu's default desktop environment is GNOME (or Unity in some earlier versions). You must be thinking of Xubuntu.
badsectoracula 5y ago
Well yeah, but i wouldn't expect a "normal user" to (re)install Windows either, so if they end up with Linux it would be because they either bought a computer with it preinstalled or someone else installed it for them.
stragies 5y ago
For the last 10+ years my Debian-install routine for devices is: - `dd` the latest Debian netinst onto some old, small on-desk USB-stick, - Insert USB-stick into target device, power on, get to boot-selection screen. - Hook up my phone via USB to target, set it to USB-tethering mode (To bypass initial (wifi-)firmware issue(s)) - NOW press ENTER in the boot-device selection screen. - Select Expert mode in the Installer Menu, this enables: - Selection of "non-free" package source - Enable backported software - Select minimal install (get the rest after Ethernet/Wifi Firmware is installed) - Reboot, still using USB-tethering - Install needed firmwares: `apt-get install firmware-<TAB><TAB>` (choose correct one, or install many/all) - (optional, but recommended on devices younger than 2 years: Install backports kernel (currently 5.14): `apt-get install linux-image-amd64/bullseye-backports` - (Optional, but needed when batadv-meshing with Openwrt master on 5.10: install kernel from debian testing (5.15.x) , with command similar to above ^bullseye^testing (after adding testing source) - run tasksel, select "Default Desktop", or whatever you were planning to install anyway That is a "detour" of less than 10 minutes.

nyuszika7h 5y ago

> Not long ago I had to walk my aunt through opening the command prompt in Windows 10 and entering the command to do a full reboot (as opposed to that hybrid shutdown+hibernation) That's unnecessary, reboot will always skip Windows's "Fast Startup". It can be a bit unintuitive because back in the day people used to recommend a full shutdown+boot cycle instead of a reboot as it could fix more issues. But it makes some sense, because generally when you reboot it's either because of an update or issues that probably won't be resolved if the kernel is just hibernated rather than fully restarting.

badsectoracula 5y ago
As i wrote in another comment this is what i thought too but it doesn't turn out to be the case in practice.

jeroenhd 5y ago

My problem with Linux for end users is that Windows and Linux break down differently. When a Linux update fails (which can happen automatically; for example, Ubuntu 16 reserved a very small boot partition and upgrading it to the latest version leaves it with too little space to keep the normal amount of kernels available), you end up digging through files and configuration and terminal commands. This is different from Windows where you have four buttons to click, and if all of those fail, you either reinstall the entire OS or reverse engineer Microsoft's logic and directory structures. When Windows fails, the OS usually detects the issue and reverts all the work. Their self repair is excellent. Sure, Windows Update may be broken for a while and the forced restarts make the whole process annoying, but the system still works. Linux can easily leave the system unbootable while Windows has the necessary recovery options. Boot recovery and System Restore are some features that definitely improve Windows' stability. Timeshift with a CoW filesystem and some GRUB hooks can somewhat replicate the effect, but I haven't seen any distros enable all of those by default yet. For example: I enabled encryption in the installers of both Ubuntu and Manjaro and hibernation simply didn't work. I managed to make it work with some config tweaks on both, but out of the box my laptop simply shut down and lost all of my work when the battery got low. My laptop also had no sound, stuttery video and no working microphone because of missing drivers for Nvidia, Intel and Realtek chips. Udev rules broke sound every time I unplugged my HDMI drive or let it go to sleep. Windows sometimes breaks down because of shitty drivers, but I've never seen it happen this severely. This was probably all related to the manufacturer's decisions about board configuration, drivers, and other proprietary crap, but the end user doesn't care whose fault that is and neither should they.

badsectoracula 5y ago
The last time i had Linux break after an update was around 2015 with Arch, but that is a rolling distro and during a time when rolling distros weren't as stable as nowadays. Before that it was with Ubuntu in the late 2000s but that was with a full system upgrade that you have to explicitly do manually. I wouldn't expect a "fixed" version distro to break nowadays because of updates. Also FWIW openSUSE does provide recovery support[0] as it uses Btrfs snapshots before and after package installations and upgrades (as well as during some other events, including taking a snapshot periodically - these are deleted after a while or if they start taking too much space) and you can roll them back either manually or even boot from a snapshot in case something goes wrong. I haven't really had a need for it so i can't exactly tell you how useful that would be (or to compare it with Windows since i never used Windows' system restore either), but it does sound like it'd provide the same or at least very similar functionality. [0] https://doc.opensuse.org/documentation/leap/reference/html/book-reference/cha-snapper.html https://doc.opensuse.org/documentation/leap/reference/html/b...