6 ms·

Is he saying the current vaccines are not efficient? I still don't get what makes covid different from the flu. Yes, covid is a little bit more deadly, but oth

by rafale 5y ago

Is he saying the current vaccines are not efficient? I still don't get what makes covid different from the flu. Yes, covid is a little bit more deadly, but other than, why don't we just accept it as part of our lives like we did with the flu?

landemva 5y ago
Fear sells.
Retric 5y ago
Over 700,000 (edit it’s now 800,000) dead Americans is about 20x as bad as the flu even with all of these measures, that’s huge. But even that understates the difference when you measure years of life lost. The flu typically kills the extreme elderly or people with extremely compromised immune systems. Aka they might die at 94 vs 95. COVID on the other kills people who are relatively much healthier, someone that dies at 75 vs 95 lost 20 years not 1. This is also why people 70+ are almost fully vaccinated in the US. For that age range it’s an extremely serious disease with a high chance of killing them after infection.
- dev_tty01 5y ago
  >This is also why people 70+ are almost fully vaccinated in the US. For that age range it’s an extremely serious disease with a high chance of killing them after infection. Older people certainly dominate the vulnerable groups, but there are many other people living with various forms of immune system dysfunction. This is why the rest of us need to mask, vaccinate, and get boosters to minimize our chance of propagating the disease to the more vulnerable parts of our population. Not doing so is basically saying you don't care about other people.
  - stolenmerch 5y ago
    Very honest and good faith question. Until when? What are the specific metrics for when we don't need masks or non-tweaked vaccines tailored to yearly variants like normal flu shots? At some point we need to say "if you are immunocompromised you need to take special precautions like you always did before covid". Just wondering out loud when that should be because for some of us it's sooner rather than later.
    - dev_tty01 5y ago
      Reasonable question. I don't think we can answer that until most of the population has been vaccinated and we see how "quiet" the disease becomes. I think we are likely to be getting annual vaccinations for years to come. Don't forget that over 200,000 people in the US below age 70 have died. Most of those would not have been considered immunocompromised prior to COVID.
      - dham 5y ago
        And what is their BMI? The US was already dying.
        dev_tty01 5y ago
        Is your point that obese people deserve to die? It has been estimated that only 30% of COVID hospitalizations were related to obesity. Since 30% don't matter by your bookkeeping, do the other 70% count? https://www.cdc.gov/obesity/data/obesity-and-covid-19.html https://www.cdc.gov/obesity/data/obesity-and-covid-19.html
        dham 5y ago
        The number I've kept seeing is 78% of hospitalizations and death were obese.
        dham 5y ago
        https://www.cnbc.com/2021/03/08/covid-cdc-study-finds-roughly-78percent-of-people-hospitalized-were-overweight-or-obese.html https://www.cnbc.com/2021/03/08/covid-cdc-study-finds-roughl...
      - stolenmerch 5y ago
        That's actually a good point because the "until most of the population has been vaccinated" is tricky. We don't really know how effective the vaccines are against new variants. Probably better than nothing I'd guess but it also doesn't completely stop transmission. An overly optimistic timeline is 100 days to get a tweaked vaccine for a new variant but we saw that's about how long it took for Delta to move completely through Florida. That plus the possibility of animal reservoirs and many high-compliance mask and lockdown areas getting large spikes anyway leaves me skeptical we can necessarily solve this through the public health policies that have been tried. I just want answers like everyone else and am trying to just learn to be healthy and live with this virus for the rest of my life. Happy to get an annual shot like the flu when/if this becomes endemic and seasonal.
- nradov 5y ago
  COVID-19 is a serious public health problem but let's not exaggerate. In terms of years of life lost it's about 2-9x worse than the flu, not 20x. https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-021-83040-3 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-021-83040-3 The average age of COVID-19 deaths in developed countries is about 80. Fortunately the vaccines and other treatments have greatly reduced the risk of death. https://www.ons.gov.uk/aboutus/transparencyandgovernance/freedomofinformationfoi/averageageofthosewhohaddiedwithcovid19 https://www.ons.gov.uk/aboutus/transparencyandgovernance/fre... https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-covid-age-penalty-11592003287 https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-covid-age-penalty-115920032...
  - Retric 5y ago
    From 2010-2020 the flu killed ~30,000 Americans per year. https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/burden/index.html https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/burden/index.html Edit COVID has actually killed 800,000 Americans. 20x of 30k < 800k. You can cut argue it should cover multiple years of flu, except the first US COVID case was less than 2 years ago and it really only got started in March 2020. Per month COVID has killed more people than the flu does per year on average and it’s not exactly stopping this winter. Years lost are then on top of that deaths multiplier.
    - dham 5y ago
      But in the long run Covid could actually kill less as younger people get it and grow old.
      - Retric 5y ago
        COVID is referring to a specific coronavirus, I hope it will go extinct relatively quickly. That said coronavirus have long been one of the causes of the common cold and occasionally cause diseases of significant concern like SARS, COVID, etc. That’s likely around for the long haul unless some massive medical breakthroughs show up.
dwaite 5y ago
> why don't we just accept it as part of our lives like we did with the flu? Because several areas are very near 100% hospital capacity with COVID patients still, and a COVID ICU visit is much more demanding from a timespan and resource perspective in terms of staff and equipment. We can't risk relaxing restrictions when hospitals are unable to bear an increase in patients. From a cynical point of view, COVID policy is about protecting infrastructure - and only save lives as a side effect. This is why many places had specific policy for essential services and essential workers, daycare and schooling, transportation, - as well as putting restrictions on private industry which in some countries has become significantly more centralized like meat processing.
arnvald 5y ago
Currently in The Netherlands the hospitals are bracing for "code black" which means there are not enough beds and staff in the hospitals to treat everyone who needs it. Doctors will have to decide who gets treated and who doesn't - they will have to choose who lives and who dies. What's more, regular care and non-urgent surgeries are put on hold, increasing the risk that patients experience more severe symptoms. Nurses and doctors are burned out and consider leaving their jobs. That's why we can't "just accept it".
metamet 5y ago
> Yes, covid is a little bit more deadly, but other than, why don't we just accept it as part of our lives like we did with the flu? Primarily because our health infrastructure has no capacity as is. Most places are really struggling, both with space and staff. Add to that the PTSD a lot of healthcare workers will be dealing with for decades to come. And losing 1-3% of our total population isn't great. But to your point: we will end up living with COVID as an endemic, so long as more people get vaccinated. We need to look at global vaccination rates beyond just local ones, too, as variants will continue to mutate throughout the world. With the vast, vast majority of folks winding up in the hospital being unvaccinated--taking up space, time and money--we're going to be struggling for a while. And COVID patients are impacting the capacity for people to get routine check ups, and in some locations emergency work, done. It's bad for everyone. Until the numbers are low enough that our doctors and nurses aren't being pushed beyond their limit, we can't consider it sustainable.
- nradov 5y ago
  COVID-19 is a serious public health problem but let's not exaggerate the risk. There was never any realistic chance of losing 3% of our population. The CDC estimated the fatality rate at 0.6% back when very few people were vaccinated. Now with widespread vaccination the fatality rate is much lower. https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/cases-updates/burden.html https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/cases-updates/burd...
  - metamet 5y ago
    Fair enough. I was using a range in order to address other countries as well. Early on, before we had the vaccine and ways to help reduce mortality, the WHO said: > Globally, about 3.4% of reported COVID-19 cases have died. By comparison, seasonal flu generally kills far fewer than 1% of those infected. https://www.who.int/director-general/speeches/detail/who-director-general-s-opening-remarks-at-the-media-briefing-on-covid-19---3-march-2020 https://www.who.int/director-general/speeches/detail/who-dir... We know this number was likely under-reporting the total cases, due to asymptomatic cases we didn't test for, but I think a range of 1-3% mortality for COVID, letting it go unchecked, is reasonable. This isn't even accounting for variants, as Delta evidenced. Deaths will climb as our hospitals become encumbered, so we can't rely on the low-range estimates if fewer people are able to receive treatment. This is why we can't just accept COVID as something we live with and do nothing about quite yet.
dragontamer 5y ago
> I still don't get what makes covid different from the flu. Yes, covid is a little bit more deadly, but other than, why don't we just accept it as part of our lives like we did with the flu? The additional amount of hospitalizations from COVID19 is crushing our hospitals, even with some vaccine support. A number of states have run out of hospital beds in the August 2021 COVID19 Delta-variant surge. Fortunately, we've got vaccines, monoclonal antibodies, and dexamethasone today compared to March 2020. With all of these new techniques, the death rate has dropped, and treatment of COVID19 has gotten easier. Still, we're stressing our hospitals to severe limits in parts of the country. We'd ideally want more slack, so that our nurses / doctors can get a well deserved break from this pandemic.
- dham 5y ago
  Death rate dropped because everyone started listening to ventilation whistleblowers as well. If we listened to them earlier on we could have saved thousands of people in the US

by rafale 5y ago

landemva 5y ago

Fear sells.

Retric 5y ago

Over 700,000 (edit it’s now 800,000) dead Americans is about 20x as bad as the flu even with all of these measures, that’s huge. But even that understates the difference when you measure years of life lost. The flu typically kills the extreme elderly or people with extremely compromised immune systems. Aka they might die at 94 vs 95. COVID on the other kills people who are relatively much healthier, someone that dies at 75 vs 95 lost 20 years not 1. This is also why people 70+ are almost fully vaccinated in the US. For that age range it’s an extremely serious disease with a high chance of killing them after infection.

dev_tty01 5y ago
>This is also why people 70+ are almost fully vaccinated in the US. For that age range it’s an extremely serious disease with a high chance of killing them after infection. Older people certainly dominate the vulnerable groups, but there are many other people living with various forms of immune system dysfunction. This is why the rest of us need to mask, vaccinate, and get boosters to minimize our chance of propagating the disease to the more vulnerable parts of our population. Not doing so is basically saying you don't care about other people.
- stolenmerch 5y ago
  Very honest and good faith question. Until when? What are the specific metrics for when we don't need masks or non-tweaked vaccines tailored to yearly variants like normal flu shots? At some point we need to say "if you are immunocompromised you need to take special precautions like you always did before covid". Just wondering out loud when that should be because for some of us it's sooner rather than later.
  - dev_tty01 5y ago
    Reasonable question. I don't think we can answer that until most of the population has been vaccinated and we see how "quiet" the disease becomes. I think we are likely to be getting annual vaccinations for years to come. Don't forget that over 200,000 people in the US below age 70 have died. Most of those would not have been considered immunocompromised prior to COVID.
    - dham 5y ago
      And what is their BMI? The US was already dying.
      - dev_tty01 5y ago
        Is your point that obese people deserve to die? It has been estimated that only 30% of COVID hospitalizations were related to obesity. Since 30% don't matter by your bookkeeping, do the other 70% count? https://www.cdc.gov/obesity/data/obesity-and-covid-19.html https://www.cdc.gov/obesity/data/obesity-and-covid-19.html
        dham 5y ago
        The number I've kept seeing is 78% of hospitalizations and death were obese.
        dham 5y ago
        https://www.cnbc.com/2021/03/08/covid-cdc-study-finds-roughly-78percent-of-people-hospitalized-were-overweight-or-obese.html https://www.cnbc.com/2021/03/08/covid-cdc-study-finds-roughl...
    - stolenmerch 5y ago
      That's actually a good point because the "until most of the population has been vaccinated" is tricky. We don't really know how effective the vaccines are against new variants. Probably better than nothing I'd guess but it also doesn't completely stop transmission. An overly optimistic timeline is 100 days to get a tweaked vaccine for a new variant but we saw that's about how long it took for Delta to move completely through Florida. That plus the possibility of animal reservoirs and many high-compliance mask and lockdown areas getting large spikes anyway leaves me skeptical we can necessarily solve this through the public health policies that have been tried. I just want answers like everyone else and am trying to just learn to be healthy and live with this virus for the rest of my life. Happy to get an annual shot like the flu when/if this becomes endemic and seasonal.
nradov 5y ago
COVID-19 is a serious public health problem but let's not exaggerate. In terms of years of life lost it's about 2-9x worse than the flu, not 20x. https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-021-83040-3 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-021-83040-3 The average age of COVID-19 deaths in developed countries is about 80. Fortunately the vaccines and other treatments have greatly reduced the risk of death. https://www.ons.gov.uk/aboutus/transparencyandgovernance/freedomofinformationfoi/averageageofthosewhohaddiedwithcovid19 https://www.ons.gov.uk/aboutus/transparencyandgovernance/fre... https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-covid-age-penalty-11592003287 https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-covid-age-penalty-115920032...
- Retric 5y ago
  From 2010-2020 the flu killed ~30,000 Americans per year. https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/burden/index.html https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/burden/index.html Edit COVID has actually killed 800,000 Americans. 20x of 30k < 800k. You can cut argue it should cover multiple years of flu, except the first US COVID case was less than 2 years ago and it really only got started in March 2020. Per month COVID has killed more people than the flu does per year on average and it’s not exactly stopping this winter. Years lost are then on top of that deaths multiplier.
  - dham 5y ago
    But in the long run Covid could actually kill less as younger people get it and grow old.
    - Retric 5y ago
      COVID is referring to a specific coronavirus, I hope it will go extinct relatively quickly. That said coronavirus have long been one of the causes of the common cold and occasionally cause diseases of significant concern like SARS, COVID, etc. That’s likely around for the long haul unless some massive medical breakthroughs show up.

dwaite 5y ago

> why don't we just accept it as part of our lives like we did with the flu? Because several areas are very near 100% hospital capacity with COVID patients still, and a COVID ICU visit is much more demanding from a timespan and resource perspective in terms of staff and equipment. We can't risk relaxing restrictions when hospitals are unable to bear an increase in patients. From a cynical point of view, COVID policy is about protecting infrastructure - and only save lives as a side effect. This is why many places had specific policy for essential services and essential workers, daycare and schooling, transportation, - as well as putting restrictions on private industry which in some countries has become significantly more centralized like meat processing.

arnvald 5y ago

Currently in The Netherlands the hospitals are bracing for "code black" which means there are not enough beds and staff in the hospitals to treat everyone who needs it. Doctors will have to decide who gets treated and who doesn't - they will have to choose who lives and who dies. What's more, regular care and non-urgent surgeries are put on hold, increasing the risk that patients experience more severe symptoms. Nurses and doctors are burned out and consider leaving their jobs. That's why we can't "just accept it".

metamet 5y ago

> Yes, covid is a little bit more deadly, but other than, why don't we just accept it as part of our lives like we did with the flu? Primarily because our health infrastructure has no capacity as is. Most places are really struggling, both with space and staff. Add to that the PTSD a lot of healthcare workers will be dealing with for decades to come. And losing 1-3% of our total population isn't great. But to your point: we will end up living with COVID as an endemic, so long as more people get vaccinated. We need to look at global vaccination rates beyond just local ones, too, as variants will continue to mutate throughout the world. With the vast, vast majority of folks winding up in the hospital being unvaccinated--taking up space, time and money--we're going to be struggling for a while. And COVID patients are impacting the capacity for people to get routine check ups, and in some locations emergency work, done. It's bad for everyone. Until the numbers are low enough that our doctors and nurses aren't being pushed beyond their limit, we can't consider it sustainable.

nradov 5y ago
COVID-19 is a serious public health problem but let's not exaggerate the risk. There was never any realistic chance of losing 3% of our population. The CDC estimated the fatality rate at 0.6% back when very few people were vaccinated. Now with widespread vaccination the fatality rate is much lower. https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/cases-updates/burden.html https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/cases-updates/burd...
- metamet 5y ago
  Fair enough. I was using a range in order to address other countries as well. Early on, before we had the vaccine and ways to help reduce mortality, the WHO said: > Globally, about 3.4% of reported COVID-19 cases have died. By comparison, seasonal flu generally kills far fewer than 1% of those infected. https://www.who.int/director-general/speeches/detail/who-director-general-s-opening-remarks-at-the-media-briefing-on-covid-19---3-march-2020 https://www.who.int/director-general/speeches/detail/who-dir... We know this number was likely under-reporting the total cases, due to asymptomatic cases we didn't test for, but I think a range of 1-3% mortality for COVID, letting it go unchecked, is reasonable. This isn't even accounting for variants, as Delta evidenced. Deaths will climb as our hospitals become encumbered, so we can't rely on the low-range estimates if fewer people are able to receive treatment. This is why we can't just accept COVID as something we live with and do nothing about quite yet.

dragontamer 5y ago

> I still don't get what makes covid different from the flu. Yes, covid is a little bit more deadly, but other than, why don't we just accept it as part of our lives like we did with the flu? The additional amount of hospitalizations from COVID19 is crushing our hospitals, even with some vaccine support. A number of states have run out of hospital beds in the August 2021 COVID19 Delta-variant surge. Fortunately, we've got vaccines, monoclonal antibodies, and dexamethasone today compared to March 2020. With all of these new techniques, the death rate has dropped, and treatment of COVID19 has gotten easier. Still, we're stressing our hospitals to severe limits in parts of the country. We'd ideally want more slack, so that our nurses / doctors can get a well deserved break from this pandemic.

dham 5y ago
Death rate dropped because everyone started listening to ventilation whistleblowers as well. If we listened to them earlier on we could have saved thousands of people in the US